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I’ve played since Vanilla through Cataclysm. In WotLK and Cataclysm going all the way to hardcore raiding.

In WotLK and Cataclysm, badge gear was NOT equivalent to hardmode/heroic gear. A serious raider would, at best, just complete their set bonuses from badges because the heroic piece hasn’t dropped yet.

Also, the example from WoD probably includes way too much grinding in comparison to putting the same effort nowadays by doing just a few M+, but whatever. I keep forgetting that back them “grinding” was good, but now it’s bad because some people can’t accept we grew up and have less time in our hands, so they need to get a guarranteed AND specific piece every week by just doing a 30 minute M10 or throw a riot.

The example from WoD with the Conquest Point cap was even more effective than I mentioned. I believe “the next week”, whilst resetting you back to 0, increased the over all cap. So if you could get 1 piece in Week 1, you’d get 2 more pieces in Week 2.

If a new player or an Alt did rated PvP they could gear up their entire alt in 1-2 days if they tried hard enough (and during a late stage in the patch) with the most prestigious gear available to PvP. It was fine because it was an in-built catch up mechanic… the early birds had to trudge through the content as that was the point of it, but it seemed sensible enough to have this system this way.

If the lootbox wasn’t giving you BIS gear back in those days, then it didn’t invalidate the raids. Nowadays this statement no longer holds true, you have Benthic gear lottery and before that there was an issue with the m+ ilvls I believe, where they also yielded on par with mythic raiding BISes.

But to be on topic Leymistakes, the thread talks about the removal of loot boxes and RNG stats … I don’t think it’s possible. I think it’s too entrenched. I think it’s wrong the way it is now, and I agree with what you said about PvE – raids shouldn’t be invalidated like that.

There was no lootbox.

It’s an EXTRA on what ALREADY existed. just drops. AS A BONUS on top of what we already have, base drops.

Just like forging is a bonus on what already dropped base.

People lose their head over RNG extras even though the game is tuned around playable bases.

You did not explain how they relate to WoW, you got one thing right (accidentally), they don’t need to be carbon-copies, the most important aspect is the RESULT, so what effect do they have?
I know that “gotcha” mechanic makes you buy more packs, not getting what you want from the weekly chest makes you… ? what exactly? buy a token?

My question was about the speed of acquiring gear, not method. Do you think our gear progression is too slow, acceptable or too fast?

As for the RNG vs the currency issue, i explained it as clear as i can and i think it takes sheer stubbornness to not understand it.

Yes, I misspoke. I know lootboxes were introduced in WoD, I mentioned that in an above post. What I meant to say is that badge gear from WoTLk and Cata shouldn’t invalidate the raids. And they didn’t.

I take issue with the complete removal of vendors, I played in WoD and I did the only thing I wanted to do back then: PvP, and it worked fantastically. I could pick and mix gear from the vendors and the acquistiion system wasn’t unforgiving. I experimented all I wanted and I played with the gear combo that suited my playstyle.

In Legion, the vendors were removed, but they introduced scaling… templates. This sort of balanced it out whilst also changing the game of PvP entirely.

Now, there’s reduced scaling* and there’s no vendors. It was unplayable for me so I quit.

*= I stuck around in 8.0, scaling was implemented very poorly, caster and recipient saw different numbers on their screen and certain situations became headaches (e.g. I could heal an RBG team-mate with Word of Glory beyond Execute HP range but I didn’t know I could because the the consistency rule was violated)

I don’t know if they fixed this, I didn’t pay much attention to it afterwards, I did come back in 8.1.5 did a normal Bg with my crappy gear and got stomped so I assume they didn’t implement scaling back and so gear matters a lot again… but there are no gear vendors. That’s offputing to me.

I lose my head over RNG staying in but scaling going out, whilst there are no vendors brought back in.

I hope this clarifies.

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It makes you play until you finally get the gear piece you want, with the stats you need. Which stretches out content, which makes RNG more unreliable than soft currency systems – making RNG take longer for right gear acquisition. Before you get to do the stuff you really wanted to do in the first place.

This is 100% the case in PvP.

Are you satisfied with doing PvE without taking into account secondary stats? Maybe if you say it doesn’t matter that much then I can see how you’re not affected, otherwise idk.

I don’t get how you don’t get it.

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I have not really seen loot boxes in WOW, as for RNG I do agree it should be toned down, a person should know what they are going to get after doing a quest and/or a dungeon or raid.

But the entire system is just tied to an endless grind to keep you playing and to increase their player hour metrics. The only way this design in the game will end is if people just stop doing content like this or there are even more massive unsubs, a huge drop in income might make the bigwigs at Blizzard listen to the player base for a change.

As for currency in game we have too many different types. What we need right now is a universal currency or some type of currency exchange mechanism. Every single new patch there is a new currency to get gear, it is ridiculous.

I find the RNG lootboxes for stuff like mounts, pets, tabards, enchant illusions, cosmetic weapon transmogs etc to be completely fine.

Warforging/Titanforging and Socketforging needs to go, pronto, having luck decide actual performance enhancing gear progression is just plain stupid.

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YOU getting, or not, the piece you need has nothing to do with the pacing of content in WoW, which according to some people who aren’t you, content becomes obsolete too quickly.
Also unreliable is not a synonym for slow, i’m kinda sick of repeating this but the speed of acquisition is decided by blizzard, not by some stupid currency or RNG mechanic. One is not intrinsically faster than the other.
Personally for PVE i find gear acquisition faster than in older expansions.

Now back to your claim, RNG makes you play until you get the right piece, and then what? stop playing? once you acquire all your best piece you quit? Because that’s what you’re implying, that without this “gotcha” mechanic people would stop playing. What are the implications here?
Then again, people who are not you claim that this RNG “gotcha” mechanic is making them quit the game and it’s the cause of all the sub loss, which is the opposite of what you claim and sounds rather plausible.

Overall i don’t see how the results of this “gotcha” mechanic accomplishes the outcomes presented in that video, which i disagree with anyway. Card packs are just a tool, you CAN use them to slow down progress, but that’s a thing YOU, as a developer, choose to do, the card packs themselves have no intrinsic “progress slowing ability”.

Good distinction, that is understood – what you’re leaving out is that the speed of acquisition between tokens/badges and pure RNG lootboxes has always been tipping the scales one way.

You don’t introduce an RNG based system if you want the players to get the gear they want faster. It’s in the definition, it’s what the business practice is for – to stretch out content.

I gave you concrete examples. We’re not talking about “What if they decided that soft currencies would be slower than RNG” we’re talking about what we have, what is real.

They took the vendors out, left the boxes in, and it’s slower. Right now, it’s slower. They decided this and it’s slower. But you won’t be satisfied with this answer either, I know what you’ll be aiming for next: some empirical evidence in the form of comparative studies between expansions WOTLK, Cata, MoP (bc you already know WoD was faster) and Legion and BFA – maybe, who knows. But if you do, then holy heck that won’t be my burden of proof because I already said those systems were fine.

I don’t have to convince you that it’s slower right now, if you wanted to make sure I understand why it is slower now, I do, and if you wanted to argue about how Blizz could make RNG drop rates better than a soft-currency system grinding time then sure, they could, but why? It doesn’t exist and it might not ever, because that’s not the direction the game is headed to, because that’s why I linked the video, to bring up this very point. You don’t take spoons away and give your players forks if you want them to eat soup faster. Again, it’s in the definition. It’s the right tool for a certain kind of job.

We’ve come full circle now Gannet.

As for this, what do I have to do with this, I told you what was possible within some parameters and how distinct the systems were. I don’t think Blizz should’ve swung the pendulum so far or at all, when it came to those gearing methods, perhaps we can agree on that.

Please enjoy that privilege for those who can’t.

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First it seems to me that you’re starting from an established conclusion and working back to confirm it.
You are just projecting your view, that you established from a youtube guide to monetizing F2P phone games, on a giant aspect of video games. Also stretching content has existed since ever, not only in WoW, yet we look of some of these methods with reverence now, from replaying the same acts in diablo to resist gear and attunments back in vanilla and TBC. Those were also tactics to slow your progress and stretch content, no rng required.
You might be bunching different things in the same pot here, just how you’re looking for ways to make those despicable monetization practices fit into WoW.

Secondly, i think most people can agree that BFA doesn’t have the slowest gear acquisition in the history of the game, so it hasn’t always tipped in favor of currency, i don’t think i’m the only one who find this to be true.

Lastly your “concrete examples” aren’t concrete at all, i just told you there is no point of reference and reality is not as black and white as you make it out. There are other factors beside currency and RNG, like the amount of sources of gear/currency or like how it’s convenient for you to remember that you had a crafted blue set back in WoD but completely disregard the crafted combatant set we have now.

Anyway it just happens that WoD was the last expansion i actually gave a damn about PVP, at least to get those 100 wins in 3v3 for mount. How long did it take me to get my full set? I’m not not even going to attempt it because it would be disingenuous as hell, therefore i don’t know if it was faster or slower.
Here’s what i do know for certain, simply adding a currency won’t ensure speed. If blizz wants to add a currency and speed up your progression they can, if blizz wants to add a currency and slow down your progression they can just as easily.

Now look, here’s what i see when i read your argument:
“Back in WoD we had currency and i remember getting my pvp gear fast”
“Now in BfA we have RNG and it feels i’m getting my pvp gear slow”
“Therefore currencies are faster than RNG”

Now even if you are totally correct and replace “remember” and “feel” with absolute certainty, your conclusion would still be invalid.

Am I starting from an observable conclusion and working backwards or is it invalid? It’s … how do you say, “The proof is in the pudding” or something like that.

And I could get it. I had the option to.

Now in BFA I don’t have the option to.

Purpose of the systems.

It’s not “remember” or “feeling”, you’re just being disingenuous and rude.

I’m not feeling that vendors are not here anymore. I know that vendors are not here anymore.

It’s not that I remember that I got gear faster in WoD than in Legion/BFA, it’s that I know how long it took me to complete the PvP sets just for the mogs, let alone actual useful purposes.

“Okay but this is YOU - yeah, and I played a lot back then. And still with a generous amount of playtime it was incredibly difficult to gather the pieces. So… you have to understand that that’s the point I’m trying to make. I played a lot and still didn’t get all the pieces I needed, imagine if someone plays less and doesn’t. Or if they play less and do get it, because it’s just their luck. :man_shrugging: Right? Kinda sucky? Playing with no certainty of progression. I got off the hamster wheel.

I don’t know why this is very hard to accept…

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You do realize that those quotes are about different things right? one is about your view on the purpose of RNG in games while the other is about your claim regarding speed of gear acquisition.
I find it funny that you think my use of the word “conclusion” in two difference sentences is some kind of contradiction.

And yeah i know there are no vendors, but i never said it was about vendors, it’s about your perceived speed of acquiring PVP gear, cause at the end of the day, if you get full set in a couple of days, does it matter where it comes from?
Unless, of course, you try really hard to convince yourself that RNG was invented to slow you down.

Yes always been… in a limited way. You were downing a boss for a chance of loot and that was it. Now looting an item you don’t actually now what that it might be. TF? Socket? Haste and crit? Who knows… it’s a roll of a dice. One in my community killed the world boss in Nazjatar and got a 450 cloak. Sorry… say it again? Yes, 450 and that guy hasn’t even seen a mythic raid. It’s insane. Good for him… but did he really deserved it?

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You must be working for Blizzard. A considerable amount of your posts go in favor of Blizzard game designs. This is absurb, you have to be a secret community manager or something. You must be.

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Do you all remember what Ion said about pvp vendors?

They removed them because players couldnt find them aaahahahaha :rofl:

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Tbh, I hate RNG probably more than anyone on these forums, but gearing with both systems take approximately the same time on average(unless you’re that poor soul at the tail of the normal distribution).

Everything else is just player preference. Some players prefer to have deterministic way of getting their gear, and some love the “excitement” when the RNG gods smile at them. For better or worse, Blizzard relies a lot on RNG and I doubt that they are going to change.

That or brave enough to not be part of the mainstream:

“I hate Bfa. I hate Blizz” = cool kid.
“I like Bfa. I like Blizz” = Blind. Fanboy. Sheeple. White knight and etc.

So because his view doesn’t match yours and he post in a positive polite manner he must work for blizzard ? People like you make me want to vomit . I enjoy the game and yes it has flaws a tip for you its always have had problems every expansion. But to mock somebody like you have is no need at all.

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dont you worry - the dopamine rush he got from it unconsiosly will keep him hooked on game even harder :slight_smile:

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