What is the problem what that buff?
you have a talent that give it to you automatically
its like any other buff
maybe you also want permanent shadow dance?
for me its just like any other CD
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ow yeaa perma shadow dance would be awesome 
I agree, I’d prefer a more active ability instead of the S&D management. It doesn’t add anything to the playstyle other than the fact you need to keep it up, which for me do not fit the rogue playstyle
You can argue you have a talent that does it auto, but you would have to give up on Weaponmaster, which is clearly a dps loss and thus not optimal
I’d add to the OP to remove useless talents that literally noone uses, such as Gloomblade for Sub rogues. Talents exist to get you playing differently on specific situations, so don’t make 1/3 of the first talent row for subs useless
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IMHO
SnD is still a good spell for assa rogue 
Totally agreed.
I personnally removed SnD from by bars, I don’t want to care about it.
Imo SnD is a filler ability to buff white numbers, doing damage with white numbers is BORING.
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We had a long thread about SnD a while ago. Lot´s of good arguments for and against were made, some of these arguments may be a bit outdated but I think the discussion is still relevant.
Especially now you don´t even specc into premediation because it is such a DPS loss with the tier pieces when compared to weaponmaster.
At the moment there is a lot of synergy with SnD and stuff like Shadow techniques and the conduit Stiletto Staccato.
I still think the ability is incredibly boring, but at this point I can´t really be bothered. I guess there will always be some underwhelming buttons to press for every class.
This is from a PVE point of view.
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I’m sorry but 50 replies in a months time is nothing. And 130 replies in total is nothing either.
There’s just a handful of people that care enough about this to post about it, and I think having SnD as an active ability is good for the game for previously stated reasons.
There’s just not enough dissenting opinions to warrant change.
There is also just a handful of rogues that use the forums. Also, this was mainly a reply to your previous post.
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Meh, still using Premeditation myself on M+ and Raids 
Don’t mind SnD to be activate later on, but the first autoactivation is super cool for me.
its quite a significant dps loss to choose premediation over weaponmaster. For my gear, choosing premediation over weaponmaster:
1x patchwerk, -300 dps
dungeon slice, -170 dps
I know these sims can be a bit inaccurate, but considering that additional shadowstrikes procs the 2 sets and the 4 set procs the 2 set and the 4 set procs weaponmaster, there is alot of synergy with weaponmaster that i just wouldn´t ignore
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Yeah, I understand your point, but the way I like to play is most important for me than dps loss. Losing no M+ and Raid invites and beeing mostly around the top of the chart non the less 
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For me it amounts to 3.4% of the total or 545 dps. All things considered it’s not that bad tbh. It also depends on how well you play the “optimal” setup compared to the “suboptimal” setup. I used to play Deeper on Outlaw over MFD because I knew I was doing better with the former over the latter. Admitting and adapting to your own shortcomings isn’t settling for mediocrity, it is a rather useful strength actually.
Ultimately nobody performs at 100% of capacity. Not you, not me, not players from the MDI or Echo…
There is always something to do better. Always.
So when you come to the conclusion that you currently don’t have something fully under control and you find a way to adapt to that by taking a talent that the meta has deemed inappropriate, I don’t think you’re doing something dumb, I think you’re being smart.
That’s not to say you should probably learn to play with the “better” talent over time. But if you need performance now, and that “optimal” talent isn’t giving you it, then you are completely justified in not taking it.
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I agree with you. I played sub rogue in season 1 because I just couldn´t stand how outlaw played. Although sub rogue was far from optimal in M+ then it played out fairly good for me.
Personally I would prefer premediation over weapon master, but given the huge difference in damage output I chose not to pick it, because i deemed that it is simply not worth it.
Anyway, back to the SnD discussion.
If they were to rework sub rogues a bit I would be happy to see that they remove SnD and their synergies. This would need to be replaced though, don´t want to just dumb down the specc. At the moment I don´t care much for the ability, but I am certainly not in love with it. As I have said before, SnD just feels lackluster. That being said I would much rather keep SnD than having something stupid added, like when they added empower demons for demo warlocks in legion or now in shadowlands, malific rupture for affliction warlock.
I just went back to play my hunter after 10+ years and got pretty fascinated with the aspect of the eagle ability for survival. I think sub rogue could benefit greatly from a similar ability. Sub rogues suffer alot from not being able to stay on target as opposed to e.g. assa that got strong dots ticking. I´d love to see a utility ability like aspect of the eagle that let´s sub rogues deal damage from afar.
I personally dont like how SnD feels for Sub but like it on outlaw. Havent played assa so no idea there.
While i think sub should have abilities that needs to be set up before a burst window, a buff to auto-attacks doesnt feel like it hits the mark and would rather see something else there.
Outlaw on the other hand, keeping up the buff fits better with how the spec plays and having it contribute to auto-attacks feels more relevant because of the mastery. I also like that it gives some more incentive to check for grand melee
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For outlaw SnD feel really good, you don’t have to press it that often because of roll the bones buff, which extends the duration. Also, SnD provides faster gameplay for outlaw rogues, because of more auto attacks, thus more procs of combat potency and more procs from main gauche. I could agree that for assa and sub rogues this talent may seem out of spec.
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Outlaw had literally all of those perks baked in to it baseline during Legion and BfA. SnD is obsolete. It is taking up room for something actually fun, engaging and interesting. It’s fine for Classic, but modern gameplay has moved way past that kinda stuff.
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I was playing a couple of new DPS alts this week. I’m trying to enjoy my subtlety rogue, but honestly, I can’t.
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Slice and Dice is such a badly designed ability. It’s just annoying and not fun in the slightest way. It doesn’t do anything cool, it doesn’t sound or look cool. It’s just a really boring maintenance buff.
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Shadow Dance and Symbols of Death: why are these 2 different abilities? One always stacks these together.
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Shadow Blades and Flaggelation (Venthyr): these additional, longer CDs are also just stacked with Shadow Dance and Symbols of Death, making them boring to use.
Having a bunch of CDs that one always stacks together in the same way feels boring to me. Fury Warrior, Fire Mage, and Elemental / Enhancement Shaman are a few of the DPS specs I’ve played that I seem to enjoy more, I think it’s because of the random procs that make their rotation more dynamic.
Shadow Dance feels cool, because it enables us to use Cheap Shot to get out some extra stuns in nasty situations. Shadowstep is also a really cool ability. But a lot of the other Subtlety Rogue abilities feel kind of crappy to me. Slice and Dice is probably the worst offender. 
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IMO Slice and Dice should be a passive for Rogues, something like “gain X seconds of SnD after using a finisher”. So you have to maintain a good rotation for it to be active without the issue of being an annoying button to press like it is now.
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If you guys had your way it would absolute kill everything that is interesting about the class. Passive SnD, Symbols baked into Dance… really? What would be left would be but a husk of what it is now. There are reasons to use Symbols earlier or later than Shadow Dance. Thats part of what makes the interaction interesting.
There are reasons to bother or not bother with Slice and Dice. That, again, is part of what makes the interaction interesting.
Automating all these things would completely change the feel of the class into something that doesn’t belong there. If you want automatic slice go play assassination.
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What’s interesting about SnD? You press the button everytime regardless of the situation.
What??? x2
Do you even play Rogue? All specs have the same issue with SnD why are you talking about Assassination as if it was any different lol. Envenom passive is useless in AoE and you are still forced to press the button at the start of every fight regardless.
I think you don’t get the point, the annoying part about SnD is wasting 5-6 combo points on a GCD, delaying the usage of your other abilities. By the time you set up SnD in trashpacks, the DH is already doing 50k DPS.
It feels useless pressing the button and you are forced to do it, that’s what we don’t like.
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