Okay, it’s not the focus of the topic so I’ll let it be.
All I really wanted to disagree on was the OP’s comment that:
Which I don’t see any basis for saying. Then we can always argue whether my statistics are proper enough, but at least they exist. I’ll leave it at that.
No, that’s not what I’m getting at.
If I know the Rank 1 titles are given to the top 0.1% of players and I know Blizzard have given a total of 100 titles, then I know that 0.1% = 100 and that 100% = 100.000. If I have that number for this Season and past Seasons, then I can do a comparison and get some impression of the player participation over the various Seasons relative to each other.
That is all.
Arena participation is overall pretty steady, looking at it since MoP. Each Season tends to hand out between 200-350 Rank 1 titles. The first Seasons of an expansion are the most popular, and the last Seasons are the least popular.
There’s nothing out of the ordinary about that.
There’s plenty of PVP activities that happen, again, outside of the pool from which the top 0.1% is calculated from. It is excempt of people below the rating (1000?), world pvpers, battleground players and whatnot.
And again, just because some people have made it to the criteria, doesn’t mean that the pool is representative of the health of the game. If they just add the total amount of qualified players, that just picking out who qualifies and who doesn’t - That doesn’t say anything about participation, which could be (and is) low.
It’s not a viable statistic to use at all.
Except with Legion s1, which was the least popular of all first seasons of all time.
Since you didn’t respond to my points showing that the problems with participation in arena and rewards are actually non-problems, I assume you agree with them, or?
Separation of PVP and PVE is necessary for the health of the game, and I’d be ready to argue this against anybody and everyone, including the developer team because the results speak for themselves.
I am only using it to reason my disagreement over the OP’s notion that: “PvP participation in Legion was a lot more compared to BFA.”
I am not trying to extrapolate it beyond that. I am simply making the point that if Legion PvP was a lot more popular than BfA PvP, then the numbers should reflect that. They don’t. That is all.
I agree 100%.
I am much more in favor of discussing the individual design ideas on their own merits, rather than just saying that WoW had more subscribers in the old days, so it would be better if it was more like in the old days! (or whatever statements that tend to often get throw around)
Argumentum ad populum – if many believe it, it must be so! – is super annoying, but sadly an often invoked argument on the forums.
My position as said before, is that there’s a correlation between rewards and participation. And when PvP does not have compelling rewards, then the participation reflects that. And if that is viewed as a problem, then the solution is to simply make the rewards more compelling – not less.
The rewards should be encouraging enough to create participation- But you can not use them as a supplement for bad content. (See: Island expeditions & Warfronts, best source for AP & reliable source of HC tier gear, abysmally bad game design).
Getting people to play systems that you designed but nobody likes is something you do only to make yourself feel better as a game designer- Not something that serves the best interests of the player(s).
Raiding, PVP and mythic + should all be rewarding in their own way- But not so much that you feel forced to for example do a mythic+ once every week. If you want to do it, sure, but not because “I will lag behind in performance if I choose not to do it”.
Which is why a separation for all the systems is needed- Arguably more between pvp and pve, but perhaps also between mythic+ and raiding.
If the rewards are good and the content is good, then you got a double good system. That’s what the game designers should aim for, not for bloating the game with loot from sources nobody likes to do.
I kind of feel like the balance side of things is already separated between PvE and PvP. The patch notes reflect that, and simply stepping into PvP quickly reveals that your abilities don’t do the exact same as in PvE.
Then there’s a question of whether Blizzard should extend this separation to also include the characters themselves, like they did in Legion with the template system. And I don’t like that at all. And I don’t like the hidden scaling system in BfA either. Such things manipulate the sense of character customization and progression that are intricate to an MMORPG, in my opinion.
And then there’s the question of whether they should also separate gear and rewards between PvE and PvP, and I am not terribly fond of that either.
Having gear that don’t matter in PvP, or which just collects dust in your bags when you’re not doing PvP, isn’t desirable to me.
Mostly the design ideas in this area tend to gravitate toward equalizing players as much as possible and devaluating the importance of gear in PvP, and I don’t like that. I think character progression is an important part of an MMORPG, and I think that holds true for PvP as well.
While I understand the utility (heh) of it that you separate pve and pvp balancing by having pvp abilities and pve abilities, I definitely feel incredibly weirded out by the fact that when I play my character in PVP, they feel more complete than they do, say, in pve.
But, I can live in it, because I think the pvp talents do bring a lot of good in them, and seem to be perhaps one of the best working systems- I only wish we’d have more pvp talent options.
Agreed. Players should be able to customize their stats for themselves- If you wanna go for big fat crit builds as a shaman, go do that. If you wanna be a more turret haste casters, you do that.
See, this is the fundamental thing that I think is the greatest argument between pvp and pve.
PVP players don’t play for the item level (unless forced to).
Pve players do.
Gear is the progression system in PVE, fundamentally, as it directly reflects your skill as a player. In PVP, gearing is -part- of the process, but your individual skill (should) play a much higher role- Which is why people want some form of equalizing.
Gear should matter in the sense that when you first step into pvp, somebody walks in and caves your face in because they got the full conquest gear and you got your leveling greens on- That’s fair. They’ve already put the effort to that character, they deserve to have that advantage over you.
But hey, guess what, you can farm that same gear in a matter of days- So you won’t be discouraged to quit and have an incentive to get that gear- And when you do get it, you feel rewarded + good about it. You’ve reached a plateu from which you can have several options.
Want to push rating for those sweet rewards? Sure, go ahead.
Want to do some random battlegrounds and film some pvp content or just to chill and have some fun time or try some silly builds? Sure, go ahead.
Want to go and gank people in world pvp without the fear of being pushed around by dragonslayers and being stomped to the ground without a fighting chance? Go ahead, do that!
Hell, want to go and try some pve now that you’ve reached a plateau in pvp? Nothing’s stopping you! (Plenty of bagspace to go so hauling around two sets of gear- Which people already do, is not problem).
Or even better, you’ve now played with this class, but you want to try some other class? Go right ahead and do that, since alting is actually fun and enjoyable now.
All of these things were ripped away in Legion- Save for getting rewards from Arena, which, as you said yourself, were really lackluster. I only really played arena during the 2nd last season of Legion, just to get myself the shaman Mog. Other than that, I didn’t even touch PVP because it was so abysmally unrewarding and unfun.
Both PVE and PVP have character progression, yes- But with PVE it’s much more important than in PVP, as the evidence suggests.
Forcing people to go through a tedious farm and progress that really is the core defining feature of PVE as a pvp player doesn’t make you feel more rewarded or happy- It makes you feel frustrated and actually just stop you from playing.
Of course, the problem goes much more deeper than just reward systems and gear, such as with class design and viability, but that’s a topic for another day.
Isn’t it easier to release arena realm pass like in Wrath/Cata where you paid 20 euros and you could play on realm where you had whole gear available in the game to choose? You had live servers where you had to farm gear that is also fun and a part of the game and arena realm where you could practice and check some comps.
Blizzard is also very greedy atm so bringing back this solution might be good for their policy. I know that paying them extra money isn’t ideal but it’s an alternative for these who cba raiding Battle for Dazar’alor for bis azerite pieces.
I don’t think such a sweeping statement is true. For some players it may be true, but it’s too easy to say that’s how everyone thinks.
I think the interest decreased with each release, because everyone got their murloc pet and therefore had no reason to sign up for it again (outside of the exclusive Gladiator title there were no other rewards to be had).
I agree Jito but many people complain how much they would like to play such server. If I were Blizzard developer I’d check if it’s just complaining or they really want it as releasing such realm shouldn’t be problem as it works exactly the same as exclusive tournament realms that are already in the game but locked for players who are not taking part in AWC. I’d actually try it and maybe even implement something that Holinka wanted to create. Weekly even happening on Saturday/Sunday where you have imitation of the tournament (AWC) where you can play vs other players from your bracket for unique account wide rewards. Extra PvP content would be welcome I guess
Even if you happen feel that way (fair enough), the system still provides you with utility: you can still farm better pvp gear, the only difference is that the cap at which you can no longer get better gear is much more shallower than it is in pve: From normal to HC to Mythic, or mythic+ levels.
In pvp, the jump is from honor gear to conquest gear. But it is a way of progress, nonetheless.
And again, these problems csn be mitigated by making more rewards for rated pvp- such as mounts, unique spell effects for your class, items and alike.
The current system literally offers you only one way of progression, save for titles and the elite set and enchant: gear.
I guess my appreciation of PvP is toward the more oldschool and classical design.
I love the notion that your opponents can appear as anything from a minor nuisance you can squash like a bug, to someone who’s a worthy opponent, and all the way to the guy who’s a God of destruction and all life perishes in his wake.
I loved that about the old, classical approach to PvP.
You started out with nothing and worked toward becoming something. Every little bit of gear you got was another step up the ladder. You could more easily stand your ground, you could contribute in greater ways, and even flex your muscles against those below you on the ladder. And still there was this guy who would just destroy you. The guy who had everything. The Grand Marshall or Gladiator or whatever name he went by. The dude with the legendary. And you wanted to be that guy. So you kept at it, and kept at it, and kept at it, until finally you reached that goal and also became a God of destruction who just slaughtered everyone around.
That’s the ideal PvP design in an MMORPG to me, and that’s what I personally want.
That incremental progression where you can see and feel every step up the ladder. Not because you get more rating or a higher rank, but because you get stronger and more powerful.
The Gladiator or Grand Marshall who stands in front of you shouldn’t be equal to you in power because some hidden scaling system makes it a “fair fight”. He should be a God among mortals who’s mere presence should make you run as fast as possible in the opposite direction!
This eSport PvP approach where it’s all about skill, even though it isn’t, because it’s really about Blizzard’s weekly balance changes…And the belief that it’s about improving yourself, even though it really isn’t, because after 15 years of WoW everyone’s hit their plateau long ago. It’s not like anyone starts the Season as a newbie and ends up as a Gladiator. That zero to hero journey is mostly a myth. The MMR system knows exactly what rating level you belong at, and then you mostly grind within that area throughout the entire Season…unless you get boosted or carried.
I don’t like it.
Although my experience from classic wasn’t that gear for pvp was that hard to get- Unless you wanted to get to the REALLY high warlord spot, and even then it didn’t matter because with the right class (shaman, warrior, rogue, mage) you could just beat people even with them having a gear advantage, even in your own class. Sure it took a lot of time, but the reward you got was very deterministic, unlike it is now.
The system I advocate for was honed and made better for more than 10 years- And when it was torn away during Legion I instantly saw how demeaning effect it had on the pvp community in this game.
I also disagree with the improving thing- The first time I bothered to push past 2k for example was in WoD, simply because I wanted a cool looking set. Next time it was in Legion, for the same reason.
In BFA, I had the same reason once more, but I also wanted the nice looking enchant so I got that too. If I wanted to, I’m sure I could improve and push past 2,4k if I tried really hard- But there’s no incentive for me to go through that pughell and progression.
It’s a different kind of esport- And while I don’t really care for arena championships whatsoever, there’s still a competitive element to it, just like there’s a competitive element for a lot of games that are a nightmare to balance properly (overwatch, TF2, etc).
Easiest solution is unnerf the PvP gear drop rate. It was fine at the start of the expansion, gear should drop! PvP should be a viable gearing route . My arena time lately has been spent in lfg or m+ . The balance is off
I will always be against any form of scaling. What’s even the point in gearing if your gonna scale to the same ilvl. Defeats the point in gearing max level. It would destroy all end game content.
Gonna cause controversy here but I miss PvP resilience gear.
I would be against scaling too. But right now there is literally no other way to get gear apart from RNG and Boring mindless PvE grind. I would much rather buy my PvP gear from a vendor working towards it rather than depending on “Luck” to get my pieces.
If they aren’t going to give us PvP vendors back, might as well give us the scaling back. It’s better than the alternative, which is doing PvE to gear up for PvP, this sentence itself is so ironic.
MMORPGs are not meant to be balanced with gear. Whoever grinds the most gets the upper hand. Now that you can’t grind as much as others shouldn’t mean that the people who do grind alot of gear should be deminished by a welfare system that makes their time spent rendered pretty much useless. I agree there should be another way of gearing for PvP but not the way there is being talked about it in this thread.
Hi, iam a 2.8exp rogue in pvp and all I want to clearify is that atm pvp gearing is dog…
Its very hard to obtain gear with new alts and that u have to spam dungeons into mythic dungeons and + to raiding meanwhile leveling your necklace et in order to prepare for pvp makes 0 sense to me.
The way pvp is balanced around pve gear also makes 0 sense to me.
That people can obliterate people with full pve gear in pvp makes also to me 0 sense.
The only solution will be that these two brackets pve / pvp so to speak are separated content.
That you have a pve content to do raids / dungeons et in progress for gear, necklace, traits and whatsoever and that this gear has to be pve orientated so to speak better for pve and dps / healing output in pve.
Now the other content pvp should have a different system aka similar as wod content like that there is pvp power or resilence on the gear u receive in bgs / skirmish to start with on alts and that the power cap between gear wise in PVP CONTENT is better scaled tho and more equal balance wise.
So basicly what I wanna say with this is that since pvp is about (skill) as it should be (wich isn’t now since its about gear and progression of ivll et) should be better balanced out, this could be achieved by or pvp-power or adding back resilence on PVP gear and make this gear unreliable in PVE content… so basicly this gear is kinda useless in raids et. but the other way around the pvp gear u achieved as player would be more powerful in pvp so to say.
PVP should not rely on gear but on skill and as soon pvp content is entered like a bg , arena, skirmish or even in world pvp the gear shouldn’t matter at all basicly only slightly and the gear should be more accesable to obtain as it is now.
Since atm there is no other way to gear in pve before u go pvp… so very alt unfriendly in the first place for PVP-ers like iam.
Its very frustrating as well in this way because we are FORCED to do pve content wich, I at least to speak for myself don’t want to do.
All I want to do is instantly go into pvp like bgs , rbg , arena et to obtain my gear as well all the other stuff to be achieved in this content.
So the only solution would be
Resilence back or PVP-POWER sort of system…
PVP GEAR obtainable trough bgs, arena, rbgs and skirmish…
Still the rng for rated arena and the bonus chest for the weekly since this is the same in pve basicly u can obtain gear rng in PVE raid / dungeons aswell u have a weekly chest u can open with m+ et…
Disable traits in PVP content, balance classes around it…
So this way as above you can obtain gear with a new alt for example to do bgs, skirmish with blue gear drops from boxes as it was before, just reduce the drop rate of it (since if there are to much drops of gear from boxes looted in bgs and skirmish the profession like enchanting will be useless basicly because the materials will be less worth in gold…)
Make it so as above that rated pvp also has a progress gearing system as it is now + a rng low drop chance on gear this also weights out the rating you are @ like for example normal, heroic , mythic gear in comparison with pve gear… wich will be ish 0-1800 bracket, 1800-2200 and 2200-2400+ in this way the scaling will be easier also. and more people will participate pvp again…
Because atm all we get from boxes are stupid materials… wich I gues we pvp-ers don’t want for our new dinged alts so to speak, at least I don’t want that I want GEAR and maybe a bit tiny gold (as u also get if u loot mobs in PVE content or raids et.)
If so as above all stated will be implanted, pvp and pve separated content this game can be fixed especialy for the pvp community wich are very unhappy with the state atm we are in.
This so to speak from my own opinion as well from a lot people I spoke with.
![:smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smile.png?v=6" ":smile:")