Problems with fury ( mainly pve)

Classes Warrior
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I know this is most likely gonna get ignored but unfortunately here is my best option.
1- Lack of flexibility in talent tree ( we are forced to take variations of same build which performs almost the same with extremely small margins)
2- We are mostly 5 HARD target capped ( even our utility spells like aoe fear is target capped unlike other classes like priest )
3- This one is also related to number 2 , anything we can do some other spec does it better ( both utility and damage wise)
4- We are mediocre at everything but not good at anything we lack an identity( Fury brings mediocre sustain damage at any situation , we don’t have any specific reason to be in the comp. For example it used to be execute phase and now we don’t have that anymore also fury feels like a filler dps only good at not dying )
5- Our single target is especially weak ( i do know because of how spec works , buffing single target will also buff aoe damage but we don’t really bring high aoe damage anyway to begin with )
6- Literally all the interesting stuff getting removed and ones we are stuck with are either old good stuff but extremely gutted ( like odyns fury ) or abomination abilities like spear of bastion ( also please remove this budget rune of power from the game )
7- Remove smf and make it baseline and add something interesting on the left row , i remember i was so hyped about gushing wounds but this is also extremely gutted version unfortunately.
8- Class talent tree also needs a huge rework , Having to choose utility for core damage talents doesnt feel good or helping the current underperforming situation either.

Probably there are more but this should still be enough if any employee reading this.
Please give some love to Fury

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I do agree that the Fury Warrior talent path is a bit… too set in stone - for its own good. You got the Holy Trinity (Rav/AM/OS) and it is optimal in both ST and MT. OF meme build only comes ahead on 12 sec burst. So, you got the Holy Trinity build with meatcleaver and another Holy Trinity Build with Massacre.

A lot of this is just number tuning and actually synergy between talents. For the love of Elune, if a Dev sees this, do not force OF to be linked to more talents. Have it able to stand on its own. This is how you can create some wriggle room. Currently TT and OF link is clearly holding back what OF can do as a talent and its nodes. Unlinking it and buffing OF would be a great fix.

Now, when it comes to niche. Fury warrior is a high-selfsustain/tanky spec, that got plenty of tools to keep itself alive and safe. It’s DPS profile is good at everything, not excellent, yet it is also not bad at anything. It cowers ST and AoE in one build. Its damage profile is fast and forgiving, so you don’t have to play around Fury Warriors CDs, you can just let the battle flow in whatever pattern the group can push. These are the trademarks of Fury Warrior and its niche, some would call it identity. An unrelenting fast-paced warrior that will fight after all others have fallen.

Now, bringing back more flavour to the spec would be nice. Especially buffing Odyn’s Fury would be welcomed. Give back some of that burst gameplay - if we can’t get back any execute gameplay. The loss of both just makes Fury feel very bland.

I must mention, spear is no longer a must pick in situations other the most sweaty of ST scenarios. The difference between spear and roar is negligible, so do not feel forced to bring it. In AoE Roar have been better (as in more stable and able to do its full potential) than spear for a long time already.

Removing SMF and just making it an optional passive, does not work. As it would confuse newer and uninformed players to take the weaker option. The best option for SMF is to turn it into a cosmetic option - then have the freed talent nodes to make Fury more auto-attack based. As SMF clearly with Annhi is meant for players who need a lower APM option. It was never meant to be competitive.

Now, when it comes to the utility issue - I feel and have argued an untold amount of times that warrior is fine as is. The DPS loss to take shockwave, stormbolt and inti-shout are all acceptable for what they give in turn. Quite a few Fury Warriors believe you are missing out on millions of damage, when it truth, you are missing out on a couple of thousand. It is an overblown popular issue - it is not an actual issue with Fury as is.

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‘’* Throw a spear at the target location, dealing (165% of Attack power) Physical damage instantly and an additional (150% of Attack power) damage over 4 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.

Enemies hit are chained to the spear’s location for the duration.

Generates 20 Rage.‘’

In what glorified universe is this a budget rune of power, if you dont like the ability dont play it. Yes you get crit standing in it but dragons roar is so close in damage you literally dont even need to play it.

Stop hating on my boy Spear of Gigachad Bastion :confused:

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With current tier set synergy , dragons roar will never be a competing option to spear at single target damage which fury is already lacking by a huge margin. Maybe when they introduce a new tier set which doesn’t benefit from crit damage next tier that will be an arguement but not atm.

Never liked it in the first place sorry to say this , i rather get ancient aftershock back as aoe pure m+ option. That ability was fun to play with for both pve and pvp.

I do agree about this.

This isn’t just about dps loss ( which is another problem but lets ignore it for now ) , we do have a aoe fear which is target capped while other classes with similar abilities doesn’t have it capped , our rally cry is worse then what augmentation brings and they bring 2 charges of it , we don’t have a way of dealing with new interrupt affix consistently like other classes ( warriors and dks were the only ones and i think they fixed the dk situation already) .
Half of the utility in the class tree should probably be and was baseline in the first place. Aoe slow , intervene , rally , leap , fear , berserkers rage were baseline now we have to take them and make a decision what to take while mostly these abilities are not that powerful to begin with and other specs / classes already has some kinda improved versions of them. Everyone wanted stormbolt to be baseline for years before df and now we have to take every single utility as talent which really sucks.

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If we are just going to compare things to other things, to make an argument and case based on that…

Warrior defencives are useless and pointless. Divine Shield immunes all damage 100% and for a longer duration of time than anything warrior got. Just look at all the classes that got CDs that allows them to both immune and do damage. Very unfair. Warrior is pointless now. Delete warrior.

Hope that was wild enough to get the point accross.

I get where you are coming from, yet it does also not paint a fair picture. Augmentation does bring a weaker Rally effect, on a shorter CD. We bring a bigger rally at a longer CD. They can also be stacked, so bring Aug and Warr for more effect. It is not either/or. In a raid setting you still want both. In a M+ setting, both are just a bonus.

Now, affixes - as is warrior can not really interact with the two affixes. This is partly a problem. I say partly. As the problem in itself, the affix, only needs one to two players in the group to handle them. The CC affix can be handled by a single hunter, warlock, paladin or druid. If you bring two players that can handle it, it is overkilled. Leaving 4 flex spots for that affix. The dispell affix requires two players that can handle it, you can overkill handle it with bringing 3 dispell classes. So, you got 3 flex spots in the group. While it is annoying not to be part of that 1-2 in 5, or 2-3 in 5, it won’t stop warrior to be brought in most cases. While I personaly prefer if I had something to help my team with, to partake - it is not really a problem for the class per se, other than what I feel like. The affixes are already handled. Warrior works during those weeks. We are getting brought in that 60% of the group that is flex. Again, it just feels bad not being able to do anything.

Our stops are strong enough. While the target cap on the fear is a bit iffy and dated. I agree. The rest of the kit is fine. Berserker Rage and other niche talents, are exactly that. Talents we chose to bring for a certain situation. That is the choice given with those talent node paths. The choices seem fair enough. If you want/need fear immunity, you must chose to bring it. Or you can take a marginal DPS increase instead, maybe something totally else. What do you in the end need the most and benefit from? That is the question the talent tree asks of you - the gameplay is you choosing your answer.

The change from everything was baseline to the talent-tree was harsh. It felt aweful to lose all the buttons, to having now to chose to take them instead. I do agree, it feels really really bad. Yet, I am quite convinced that the new talent system is better for the game overall and for the future development of the class gameplay. So we kind of just got to deal with the bad to get the good.

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Ofc i’m gonna compare to other things what else you can make an arguement based on ?

Immunities are niche and became those specs identity at this point. Warrior self sustain was never a problem and if it will be its just gonna be a number tweak. While they have immunity we have enrage / ignore pain / spell reflect.

Aug rally is better sorry to say this they have perma 4% hp increase and with a button it becomes 16 while warriors have 15 without the next row talent which is mostly only taken on raid. Also with current raid comp evolving ( talking about fury ) it start to get 0 spot in the raid. Again same problem we don’t excel at anything just mediocre sustain damage. Yes there will be an arms warrior most likely in raid but fury spot is really bad atm.

You can’t build a group around a perfect outcome when it comes to m+ and also 1 player even 2 cant properly handle those affixes. Its more like bare minimum 3 even 4 should be able to handle it.

It definitely is , not only affix weeks which is even more impossible to join even if there is 4 flex spots as you can see in current meta still there is no reason to bring a melee dps with mediocre sustain damage to that key since fire mage exists.

Sorry but atm we are playing most gutted version of dps warrior ( even including bfa start losing all borrowed power) .

I do agree talent tree easier to develop and probably better for games health in the long term but literally current version we are playing is just gutted version of our spellbook and we can only take half of it.
The fact that rampage/bloodthirst/raging blow as a skill or stances as a skill being in talent tree is extremely lazy and uninspiring. Literally current version of this talent tree is an illusion to make it look full.

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No need to repost my whole post in parts, it makes it extremely hard to read for older gentlemen like myself. Communication breaks down if you start commenting things on a sentence to sentence basis. As it seems then to me you don’t get the overall idea, and get hyperfocused on words and not the point.

You wonder what you should base your arguments on, I would say you need to weigh them more. That was my whole point in bringing up the Divine Shield example. It was to bring up something that really isn’t a problem to bring up, yet I can narrate it to become one. Like you did bringing up your examples.

My point was you are bringing out something warrior is weaker when compared against. I can do it the opposite way as well - and bring out examples where the warrior is stronger or find even worse examples of warrior being weaker. Be it our stun heavy kit or our ability to break mechanics with spell reflect. It is all narrative. Warriors defensive kit, utility kit and damage kit is one big package. As you know, we excel at what we are brought to do. At least it seems to me that you agree to that point. You just don’t believe we bring enough, this is where our core disagreement on the matter lies. I don’t think we will see eye to eye on this. As we got two different views on how affixes should/could be handled. That is alright.

I must mention that again you ignore the fact that the effects can be stacked. It never was an either or situation. Utility can overlap in purpose, there is nothing innately wrong with overlap across some classes. Your fear about Fury perhaps losing its spot in raids is only based on one thing - how good are we on that fight and the fights overall. Arms and Fury both do different things. In a fight where both damage profiles are needed (ST and MT), fury is generally the better option. Especially if there is 5 adds that must be bursted down on a 1-1.5min interval. Arms then should be the better as the specialised job option, as they can’t really do both ST and MT in the same build. This is one major and important way the specs differ. So it is the same as always. I see no need to change that formula.

Keep in mind, if you are playing for only cutting edge or lower, the DPS difference doesn’t really matter. The self-sustain and stable DPS a fury warrior brings might even be the preferred and best option for your team. My point to stress that you can play what you want. Only if you are in a cutting edge of the edge HoF raidgroup, then - I hope you already accepted that you should and would play the best spec for that fight. As that is when you play to push out the very last drop of optimisation. At lower levels of content completion, it is not DPS usually holding people back (if they know how to do their rotation under stress), it is getting the mechanics consistently done and not dying to mistakes. Hope this makes it clear. Fury is fine, even if it isn’t the bleeding edge pusher option. It will likely remain the popular option for its playstyle and benefits.

Finally, I am glad you agree with me that; the spec feels gutted for us old timers, as it indeed was; and yet it is probably better for the game as a whole long term. We just got to bite the pillow for a while till we adjust to the new world of things. For now, it is what it is - it feels bad.

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If there is one thing you can’t say about basically any dragonflight spec is that we’re playing an inferior version of what we had before.

Just no.

I can’t think of a single spec that wasn’t improved.

That’s just a false claim, straight up.

Frankly speaking, warrior is in a pretty good place, it’s not perfect, but nothing is.

Aoe is good, st is decent to good, defensives are meh, but warrior has very good self healing.

It’s just not as bad as you wanna pretend it to be.

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How can losing more then half of your kit is a false claim ?
Also where do you get those damage numbers ? Because fury is worst single target damage dealer currently in game atm and aoe is mediocre. You can verify this claim by looking at logs. Fury weirdly scales really bad with gear atm we always are good when tier starts and we drop drastically.
Defensives are more then good i never said anything bad about them , fury has passive perma defensive thanks to enrage since forever on top of that we have good self sustain and spell reflect.
And lastly yes , dragonflight specs are just spell book + old cool abilities gutted versions in talent tree. I don’t expect any legion or mop level broken thing from any spec anymore which is probably bad for the games health anyway but there should be a middle ground.

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On pure ST, Fury is bottom tier. Yet we are no further than around 5-10% behind the middle of the pack. Let us ignore the outliers that is Aug and UDK - we both know they are cheesing hard with setups that is only useful during reclear-funtime.

Now, if you take a fight where fury do fit with its strengths, like a not well known boss - Scalecommander Sarkareth, fury is suddenly in the top 5.

On total overall DPS we are ~5k behind middle of the pack. Or again around ~5-10%.

Fury is not a burst class, it is a flat-sustain DPS spec. So, the longer from hero to the end, the better Fury will do compared to others. The shorter the fight, as long as it fits with the CD lineups, the better other will do.

You can see this in our trend of maxing out, as in we wont boom after, like 4 weeks in. While other classes get gradual gains more clearly as things progresses, some even got class breaking items. This is not a weakness of fury, it might even be called a strength. You know what to expect, every time.

This season quite a few classes gain quite a bit from Aug. Fury does not. So, we won’t be enjoying any big DPS spikes from that either, nor from PI or WF. The lack of scaling feels bad when others go beyond, yet we had our time early. We were there for when it counted.

My tirade here got one simple purpose: To point out that Fury isn’t in a “bad” spot. So when someone says ‘fury does good damage’, it is more true than not - as it was more than enough to carry Fury through when the content was pushed. Anything done after that period is just… well, cheeze. Bonus. Fat. Excess.

Of course, I like yourself, would love to see Odyn’s Fury get a buff - perhaps even to see execute phase be a thing we want to be in again! Yet, sadly… that won’t happen. So we kind of just got to accept that Fury is what it is damage profile wise. A flat line. Well, at least until blizzard implements another Gavel.

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I don’t understand what you are talking about frankly speaking.

Losing half the kit? Where? Dragonflight has added so much stuff compared to previous expansions.

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Before we had everything, now we get to chose something back.

We got no real way to bring everything again. There simply put isn’t enough points to take them. So we lost a lot of utility that we used to have. Often you will see berserker rage, intervene and even rally get the cut in the name of getting talents that do DPS further up.

When you were used to have fear immunity and fear, charge and intervene… you get the idea - when that is now not just baseline, it feels like it was lost.

We might take back half of it, in a build that sacrefises DPS to do so. That is what he means by half is lost.

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I guess that’s a good point.

I tend to think about the rotation itself, rather than everything.

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