So as of lately i have been playing pvp and pve on my feral and seeing prot paladins out heal healers and out damage dmg dealers this feels like a really unhealthy balance between prot and other classes.
The suggestion on balancing it out would be that they get less healing and more resistant focussed spells or that their healing is gonna be only self targetted. generally their dmg should be also down scaled in pvp as they should not be dealing low to normal dmg dealers dmg in arena’s or pvp scenario’s
Prot paladins need a damage buff, not nerf after the SotR damage nerf. The end of the game damage stat is misleading since a lot of it is trickle cleave.
WoG does need to be changed, or rather Hand of The Protector talent. Maybe make it apply a damage reduction buff on an allied target instead of giving the same full self heal bonus as it currently does. Just spitballin’ though.
There are also a lot of other things “wrong” with tanks in general. Like why is the taunt PvP talent not baseline? It’s such a good idea, but sadly not worth taking as there are just better options. I believe this is an example of how Prot Paladin damage can be “fixed.” Also shift damage from Judgement to SotR so that using SotR actually becomes an attractive option. Currently there is very little reason to use SotR over WoG in most situations.
Its completely fine to keep prot paladin in PvE as he is, because there is no player as an enemy. Even tho maybe some people do not like to see one tank being top notch in comparison to every other.
PvP wise you are absolutely wrong, sorry to say so but a Tank should not be able to climb the ladder up to gladiator. But they are healing so much as they can do it, including alot of utillity AND a decent amount of damage.
Seriously? What’s next? Healer’s shouldn’t be able to do it either? Sounds like you’re in the trap of believing everything should rotate around damage dealers, which is how it typically always is by default - combinations of damage with whatever sustain they feel they need. Tanks be damned.
People are easily misled by stats, particularly in battlegrounds (where it’s often a free-for-all fiesta, and tanks are the prime candidates who can actually get into fights and stick around long enough for the stats to punch up in their favour, wether it’s healing or damage done). In reality, a Prot Paladin is not going to out damage anyone in a standard environ, nor will they outheal an actual healer. It will simply look that way in a vacuum because they are longer lasting threats doing both over time and are typically the least likely candidate to die.
Thanks to the PvP changes, you can still blow them up, unlike before (where I used to tour the world in Legion with 4million health and invite people to get ground into paste over 5-10minute long fights of me doing next-to-no damage whatsoever but being tanky enough to wear everything down).
I mean, this was what it was like for Prot “Warriors” back then - and they didn’t exactly have self-healing and 20 tonnes of utility:
If my Protadin was as geared as my Warrior was, that would have been grossly oppressive.
TLDR: Don’t be fooled by post-match stats of any description, be it battlegrounds or arena. I was never shocked to meet prot players in arena in the past (and used to myself), but I will definitely be shocked if you find many (if any at all) in the top reaches of PvP, such as actual competitive environments rather than Joe Soap’s latest battleground where randoms are slapping themselves against the nearest tank and wondering why it statistically looks like it’s some kind of damage/healing god.
Im pretty sure ret would do way more damage then prot. The only real DMG prot has is judgement. But people forget that like all spell are AOE so damage will easy look high. Especially since its a tank and can last long.
It’s the same with frost DK. Damage can look realy high in BG. But mostly its cause of all the frost fever ticks on everyone that is racking up dmg.
Also dieing or staying alive and get healed is big factor of damage on charts in BG and as a prot I get focused alot which cause healers to heal me alot to. Which in return cause me to last long and do loads of AOE damage over that time. Not that I burst people down easily. I just outlast them. But my prot aint 60 yet tho.
And I agree that WOG should be nerfed as heal on others. Prot should not be able to replace big part of healers job.
Why not? It seems to me that people who complain about tanks are unable to make a reasonable argument for why a group of players should be excluded from a major part of the game other than because they don’t personally like it.
If tanks get disabled from Arenas I suggest we remove DPS from Raids and Healers from Mythic+ as a compensation. This way every role has one game mode they are not allowed to play. See how absurd and discriminatory that sounds?
This is important to keep in mind, especially when the current meta is very burst window heavy. Prots have very, VERY little burst (unless you go for a Venthyr cheese build but that is available for all of the Paladin specs and is easy to counterplay.)
What is a role of a tank in arena then, in your opinion? Keeping aggro somehow? Could be done with target fixing, but it would end up being an actual crowd control effect that’s absolutely frustrating to play against, and can be played around completely with @arena123 macros, so it would be PvUI. Not dying while doing negligible damage and being a nuisance that drags the game unnecessarily long when the outcome is known long before it actually happens?
Unlike a DPS or healer’s, a tank’s purpose needs a much more dramatic shift to be viable and not toxic, which tends to get messed up in the process. I personally don’t have anything against the concept of PvP tank, which should be more of a setup-based support with low-to-average damage, but given how far it is usually from a PvE-oriented tanking by design, it can too easily end up as imbalanced, oppressive mess. Hence the sentiment against tanks.
Tanks should have low DPS but potential for AVERAGE burst when they set up properly and on a decent cooldown. This is to make them able to deal with 1v1 situations without relying solely on outlasting your opponents. Tanks should also be able to kill a healer in 1v1 if you vastly outplay them, this is currently not the case. Healer vs a tank often leads into an endless battle. However, I’m not saying killing a healer should be easy for a tank, far from it. Every role should be able to deal with every role in a 1v1 situation, in theory at least.
At least one of the tank specs should focus on boosting your teammates damage, a niche that’s currently missing from the game. As it is all of the tank specs have a PvP talent that turns taunt into a debuff that makes the target take more damage based on the amount of allies hitting that target. This is a good start but should be baseline for tanks in PvP. It’s just currently not worth picking on any of the specs because tanks have some other fantastic PvP talents. Which brings me to another point.
Make most of the PvP talents baseline by merging them with existing talents.
for example, Guarded by the Light reduces the damage your ally takes by 10% after being healed by your Flash of Light for 6 sec, stacking up to 2 times. I would suggest “fixing” the prot healer by nerfing the Hand of Protector talent from the full 250% WoG heal bonus to roughly 120-175% and giving the effects of Guarded by the Light to the target of your FoL / WoG. This turns the talent from a straight up healer talent to something that only slightly patches your allies HP and rewards predicting enemy burst.
That last block of text went a bit off the question, but the point I’m trying to make is that tanks should be about enabling their allies, whether it is by Control, Peels, Heals, Boosting their damage or any other type of support. Many of the tools already exists in the game, but they are locked behind too many PvP talents.
EDIT:
Also to add to this, tanks should be conterable by giving DPS classes abilities that deal damage based on target max/current %HP and % based defense lowering debuffs.
I think that banning out roles for certain parts of gameplay isn’t a healthy mentality but having a tank take over a spot of a healer in a normal composition should never be a thing. One of the reasons for that is that the roles tank / healers and / DPS have been created for a reason. Tanks are mostly build about soaking dmg and assisting their allies in their needs this is the role they should fulfil and not complementary also needing to be able to heal themselves and their allies.
The main way to fix it in pvp is to make tanks based around that idea instead of focussed on healing like a paladin tank make them be able to give a armor buff to their allies for x seconds or make them be able to have a bigger form of intervene.
As for PvE having 1 tank be so strong compared to other tanks that it is even able to solo certain world bosses and Mythic dungeon bosses (not to mention last expansion normal raid bosses look up rextroy on youtube) is not healthy design. Sure the people that do this are pushing their limits on the class/spec but since that can be done and SHOULD NOT BE able to be done its kinda showing that the spec has been too strong and hasn’t been properly addressed on it. In a PvE situation I would generally once again change their healing their dmg is okay but in return for changing their healing give them a more suitable armor or magic resist increase buff in a form or make them be able to use a frontal cone shield which blocks out all attacks from the front for themselves and allies behind them with a longer CD. Something a bit paladin like and especially a protection one.
Damage buff and a slight defensive buff is the optimal solution, unless we get more utility. Being chonky is useless if you have no presence and you need damage or utility to have presence.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are still in blue gear, no m+ experience, no raid, 14arena games total, you do not play a prot paladin, you do not know how prot healing works nor the damage spread, or the stuff we have to go through to be barely viable. Now go hop back to casual-land, 1st wing of LFR is out for you, focus on that instead of spewing stupidity on forums.
I disagree I think every spec should be able to climb to Gladiator, why would they have to sit back also Prot Pala might be good but any great PvP’ers will own the comps with Prot Pala in them. If you lose to a Prot Pala it has everything to do with the way you played the game not the other way around.
I love the amount of time you spend reading before you make a comment sir, Thats fine acting like you are a big shot and that as a protection paladin you need to work hard to make yourself viable. I have seen no tanks that keep themselves as easily as protection paladins lately. And if you gonna tell me that’s cause they are so amazing at the game then go ahead and tell me. Trying to fire some cheap shots cause you are hurt mentioning the fact that protection paladin has done some ridiculous stuff (Check up on rextroy: https://www.youtube.com/user/Rextroy3/videos) and that a lot of these things are not considered directly healthy for the game. My bad, as mentioned protection paladins need to get balanced out, they are heavily focussed on healing and doing some dmg next to it while not having much else so instead like mentioned earlier.
Indeed mate, we should balance prot paladins based on the performance of Rextroy, who’s whole WoW career for the last 3 years was to sit 24/7 in WoW finding glitches to one shot randoms in bg/arena etc, not only on paladin but on most classes.
Surely, he soloed the easiest m0 dungeon, using specific legendaries, talents and gear to get views. This must look INSANE for the average player.
So based on your logic, we should “balance” prot paladin based on Rextroy’s performance because afterall every average WoW player is a Rextroy.
Prot paladins are one of the squishiest tanks if not played properly, very deoendant on cd’s and are extremely vulnerable to cc, they can easily die in a stun.
You are playing a resto shaman, a faceroll spec, go gear up and enjoy the game a bit.
Tanks has to no place in rated pvp.
Prot paladins cant die, they heal more than healers and dpses like their ret.
You cant say that its balanced, unless youre maining prot paladin and your ego got hurt. Blizzard legit as delusional as people defending tanks in pvp
Again you are not reading anything that is said earlier in the chat which is completely fine personally I have been playing feral for quite some time, as about being the squishiest tanks and balancing the matter that somebody can abuse prot paladin mechanics talents and passives in such a way that it breaks the game shows that there are balancing issues in the game.
As for the Prot issue their issue is that they are considered squishy since they aren’t heavy Physical tanks but more meat bags with 1 armor increase and a lot of healing/dmg. Whats the issue in this it doesn’t require much to play prot paladin any decent as a tank (can say this about most specs but that’s another topic) the balance issue with prot paladins lies in this if they were healing tanks healing themselves only that would be fine, but they are not and that is where the issue lies. Prot paladins should be losing dmg and healing to get balanced out with some more utility and have passives/spells be based around buffing themselves to be a bit tankier.
If you are talking about squishy on the other hand prot paladins aren’t squishy like cloth wearers or monks or druids when they are not in bear form. Those are squishy but these get to have a change like stagger bear form armor increase or rather not being targetted what is there for paladins? Shield of rightousness or did you forget this? I can almost guarantee that a druid tank is squishier then a paladin even only reason it might seem different is cause of the self healing on a druid tank. Now instead of acting like a prot paladin that is all high and mighty take a good look at the class and consider how it would be good to balance it out in a healthy way for prot paladins to still be played but not be the way they are (and yes I know DH tanks are broken considering dmg)
Shield of righteousness is the same as Ironfur on a guardian druid, it is active mitigation.
Bear form is the same as changing into a tank spec.
Guardian druid has Frenzied regen as there healing Prot paladin has Word of Glory as there self-healing.
Clearly you need this basic knowledge.
Now the base armour gain on protection paladin is lower armour and lower hp specifically because of the ability to heal others.
Protection warrior is the Damage tank, Dk is the self healing tank, Monk is the stagger and can not be hit with one hit very hard, Demon hunter is the anti magic tank, protection paladin is the utility tank, Druid is supposed to be the meat shield tank (therefor they and DK have the highest hp pools).
This is the idea when they revamped the class fantasy.
