I cannot think at a single instance in the whole game where as a prot pala i’d want consacration stuck in a point to do pitiful tick dmg, rather than on my feet boosting my defense.
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Literally not what he said. Please stop using this annoying condescending tone, like a crappy teacher to kids. Which would be still acceptable, if at least you were right. But it seems like you don’t really tanked a lot, especially not high keys.
Nobody complained about the 4 sec cooldown not being short enough. The argument is consec being on a GCD, and to make the situation even worse, WoG is also on the GCD since BfA, so lot of the times it presents an annoying decision making moment.
About using it as a means of kiting: no reasonable tank moves mobs just to reduce their own damage taken, unless it’s a live or die situation. Caster mobs will be left behind, sometimes not all of them can be interrupted, even if your grp helps, overall DPS will plummet, because the mobs are then scattered, and you moved them out of every AoE effect the grp has, etc etc etc. People are just used to this crap from SL, where tanks were so paper thin, especially in season 1, that the most used tactic was kiting mobs with a DH. Which, again, still should be used if you would die otherwise, but if that’s not the case, a good tank moves as little as possible, only when mechanics forces us to move. The more you can stand still, the higher the DPS will be for the vast majority of specs.
good for you. i have intentionally left behind slowing consecrations in more cases than i can count in both bgs and arenas, less so in pve. i feel like my suggested consecration rework could fix all issues involved with consecration’s current design without changing it for those who enjoy leaving behind a 50% slow.
another odd way to rework consec could have it be that so it leaves behind consecrated ground wherever we walk for a few seconds. that’s lazier, and tougher to balance out, so i still feel my suggestion should fix all issues regarding consecration without ruining the ways it can work right now. is it sometimes wonky on sanguine or trying to get caster mobs to you? yeah, sure, that’s what the lowered CD should help with by repositioning it sooner, and the 50-75% decreased GCD after using it would help us out even more. we shouldn’t expect to “have it all” though. consec is a relic and part of the base class fantasy, so you’d either just deal with it or reroll i guess.
Both BG and Arena are not instances where you are actually tanking.
Yes, use consacration to slow down people chasing you in WG is a thing, but it’s irrelevant to the subject as it’s not a tanking scenario (and there is a long ongoing debate if tanks in pvp should have a place at all).
If you really want that slow, maybe you should ask for hand of hindrance from ret.
Pretty much is what he said, even if I paraphrased it.
I’ve tanked far higher keys than you. Please stop the annoying condescending tone.
That wasn’t the argument here at all. Comprehension problems?
Such insight.
slowing down mobs in m+ or any pve content allows us to gather as much as we understand we can hold and keep them from getting to us while still allowing non-melees to have more uptime on them than they would without the slow. perhaps the tank is even less geared than it would allow allow him to yolotank 3 rooms of hard-hitting mobs and he therefore wants to attempt to kite within a range?
this is still useful in pugs. it’s useful in the open world, it’s useful in pvp, it’s useful in pve. situationally. i do not want situations removed from me where i have always found applications for the good of others who refuse to engage in edge cases entirely.
for pvp, current consec with slow has more uses than just WSG. there are countless applications. to make consecration purely at our feet and ONLY at our feet removes these applications for the sake of other content. i have never been a fan of this type of design change throughout any game, much less wow. i also could not care less about the “debate”, as i’ve seen nothing but an extreme bias from DPS players who think instanced pvp should be only what they believe their pristine competitive vision of the game’s pvp is. tanks belong in pvp, the same way every class and spec does.
hand of hindrance? i do not want that, as it is a single target slow. that is a completely different ability.
i still have not heard your thoughts about my consecration suggestion(s). do you agree or disagree that this could solve problems revolving around consecration without limiting & removing its current functionality?
If you really want them, your idea is a crappy idea that has nothing to do with tanking and will only overcomplicate a simple issue.
i do not understand your hostile reaction to this. maybe there is some confusion.
for clarification, my proposal: consec’s CD is reduced flat by 1 or 1.5s, down to approximately 3s w/ haste. consec’s GCD is reduced by 50-75%, down from 1.2ish w/ haste. after leaving consecration’s field, we gain a temporary buff for the value of our mastery’s + any talent’s damage reduction effect for a short period to allow us to reposition consecration safely.
how is this “overcomplicated” with no value to pve tanking?
There is no hostility, neither confusion. It’s just a rubbish proposal.
It’s way more complex than leave everything as is and just link consacration to our movement.
Your solution requires adding a buff & talent reworks to compensate the loss of mitigation leaving sacred ground and change cd and duration of consacration.
All of this to keep a (bad) slow for pvp usage, without solving the base issue which is the loss of mitigation when moving that nowadays with all the stuff that gets lay down (storm, quaking, sanguine etc) in an istance, is pretty much constant.
Your quote doeesnt even support any claim, from neither side xdd.
Sure buddy.
Blocked. I don’t have the patience to read your crap comments everywhere on this forum. Get a life, instead of hanging out 24/7 here, writing nonsense, and annoying people.
i don’t believe there are any talent reworks required here. should consecration have a baseline bigger size as one talent adds? yeah. should consecration also have baseline +2s duration as one talent adds? yeah. i feel like there’s too many talents buffing consecration as it is.
but that’s besides the point. talents that work with our consecration actually have no reason to be changed with my suggestion. my other random suggestion, the consecration that follows us but also leaves consecrated ground where we’ve already walked, would require far more of a redesign overall.
i strongly believe there is no reason to drastically change the way a core skill functions, as such that you are removing it’s functionality in other areas of the game, so as to more appropriately address problems in other content. this has happened before to several classes and specs throughout wow’s history, and it’s almost always involved “dumbing it down.” protadin doesn’t need to be dumbed down, it should be more interesting, yet also more consistent.
also, class balance and design should come from a perspective of: “how will this affect (other form of content)?” and “how will this affect player feel?”, not simply “this will make the class better at (x).”
yeah, a consec that’s at our feet would make protadin far more consistent, but that’s such an amateur-level lazy change that only dumbs down the class as it is. why bother with that when you can think of more interesting changes that fulfill the same desire?
i believe it best to propose mechanical changes that do not “take away”, but only make more interesting and fulfilling. you would lose nothing and only gain by my proposal, whereas a consecration that moves with us is a net loss for players like me as a whole. not healthy design IMO.
edit again: instead of “gaining” a buff, consecration’s immediate application could always apply an indefinitely lasting buff for the value of all our consecration’s damage reduction values, which upon leaving the area of consecration, lasts 2 to 4 seconds, much like some auras already work. this would work much better than “applying a buff after leaving consecration.” and is already a preexisting mechanic found throughout classes, such as monk windwalking aura.
That is your choice the reason people want the one that follows you around is because it already have existed in the game meaning it is not much work remember it is not even a look thing.
Aka something that they can implement in a patch and not something that require a new expansion.
That is the difference between what you want and what is asked for what you ask for here is an expansion level change.
First problem with this is that is not how that works in reality secondly you can literally do the same using your team mates abilities.
To elaborate on the first problem this means you have less threat on the mobs meaning you are going to lose threat remember we do not have snap threat outside of divine toll.
But even so the dungeon design means this is not something you do and when you do you do NOT need a slow to do it as there are many other ways to do the same exact job.
Again same problem here there is this thing called Threat in the game he would not be able to hold aggro on those 3 rooms without help from team mates. (why is it ok to assume help from team mates to hold threat yet getting some form of slow is not?)
The premise of the original post is literally a talent you can choose you as a player who apparently needs a slow to do any content can still use that talent instead of the one where it follows you.
i think you’re taking my examples a bit too literally, they were merely smaller examples to highlight the injustice of removing functionality. i did not play my prot pala in wod, or in mop, because i hated what they did to my class. fortunately, moving consecration was removed and sensibly so, as that changed far too much the core function of a skill we’ve known for expacs before that to work much the same primary way, which is to place a location of hallowed ground below where we choose. we are also talking about the current iteration of consecration and what could be done.
i would also like to talk about my 2nd proposal regarding consecration, which should be more attractive as some crave further simplicity rather than creating more interesting game mechanics to play under.
proposal #2: consecration is now under you, and leaves consecration trails behind you where you’ve walked for about 3 or 4 seconds after activation. the size of consecration might need to be decreased slightly to make this work in a balanced manner, though. this fulfills what your group desires, which is a consecration constantly active underneath the feet, and fulfills part of what my group would desire, which is a consecration we can leave behind. this is an almost-compromise as i lose the ability to leave behind large consecrations 50 yards away in many forms of content, and you would gain the ability to have a constantly active consecration underneath your feet.
i still do not like this idea as much as my first proposal because it reduces the need to plan ahead and makes what is in fact a current downside of protadin tanking, completely and utterly non-existent. it would also be a potential nightmare to balance the power of. should that be how we approach it? just, screw it, remove consec, bake its effects into is innately, forget it exists? that’s not -fun-. a video game should be fun, and fun comes from a video game’s mechanics. simplifying mechanics hardly ever makes a video game more fulfilling and interesting.
Eh,its quite easy to see. Dont give me the old speak to the hand chidish routine when it turns out you dont like the facts.
But it would not because it being a talent means you can choose not to take it.
It was a glyhp not base line and you could choose not to use it if you wanted to so that is just you not knowing what was going on at the time.
I don’t think i ever used it as tank in those expansions.
However the most important thing there was that the Mastery did not tie into it in anyway shape or form.
This is an expansion level change so even if they went for it that would only happen when next expansion comes out.
The problem with consecration is that it is tied to our mastery.
unfortunately, if as the OP suggested, imp LoH was replaced by “Consecration now moves with you”, this would effectively be a non-choice, and would not fix the issue as a whole, but become a band-aid to remedy repositioning+dmgreduc issues.
it’s seeming much like blessed hammer, where blessed hammer is not a choice, but a must. the 3 charges on blessed hammer and lack of requiring a melee target means there IS no choice but to take it, as hotr is completely overshadowed by blessed hammer. and so as to not force anyone to take something they don’t want, i proposed the obvious (to me):
reduce consec CD slightly, reduce GCD incurred by consec, the current buff granted by consecration lingers for 2-4 seconds after moving out of the area, but this being so also forces you to reposition consecration without it mindlessly being around you all the time, setting yourself apart from other protection paladins by optimizing usage of talents such as Incandescence and Strength of Conviction. usage of consecration for reducing incoming damage is in fact not a bad mechanic, and neither is judging the positioning of consecration. my proposal is also not impossible within a minor patch, as it does not drastically change the functionality or mechanics of consecration while still giving us exactly what most want - consistent damage reduction through our holy ground.
plus being that myself and others would not need to have to deal with inconsistent damage reduction just because we still want to have a bigger, slowing area within consecration. i don’t believe this change to be impossible or imbalanced, but very simple while retaining everything every part could -want- from the way consecration currently works, and the best of all worlds. nobody loses anything, everybody wins.
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And here you are taking what they said literally instead of understanding and reading what they actually said the point was that it was a talent not the placement of the talent.
You are doing the exact same thing as you did not like that i was doing to you because i made holes in what you said.
First problem with what you want it is too big of a change it will literally require a lot of dev time it is not something we are getting in a patch it is large enough of a change that it is an expansion level change.
You do not understand that the change that is proposed by having it be another talent does everything including allowing you to still slow down mobs (although your idea of using the slow to pull mobs is ridiculous as we do not have the snap threat on those)
Nobody loses anything, everyone wins.
if it is a talent, no matter where, it becomes -not a choice-. you are attempting to justify making an optional talent to fix what is an inherent problem with consecration being part of our damage reduction. this is not the way to go.
what
reducing the cooldown, reducing the GCD, and making the already existing buff act like leaving an aura’s range is “a lot of dev time?” how in the world? this change would take an intern at most an hour to implement and test.
ironic, because i don’t think we’re on the same page here at all regarding anything at this point.
nobody said anything about “using a slow to pull mobs”, but in fact “slowing mobs”. there is no feasible way to retain the current positive functionality of consecration throughout all forms of content while at the same time turning consecration into an area that moves with you and at the same time addressing the whole issue of consecration’s damage reduction effects.
if moving cons is a selectable choice talent, where would it be? what would be it’s opposing choice?
if it is not a choice talent, but a single talent somewhere else, how would it be positioned?
why do people think it is OK to suggest a complete rework of a working and satisfying gameplay mechanic, alienating those who already enjoy it and play around its limitations?
i simply cannot fathom how such a simple CD, GCD, and lingering buff change is not readily accepted and wanted, as truly nobody loses anything they want from this, but only gains, and completely addresses all issues with consecration.
Then your way also will not work.
This you?
As you can see you literally said that.
You do realize the limitation is something that exists only for protection paladin right?
literally no other tank in the GAME has a stat none existent if they do not stand inside of something they put down on the floor.
You say that but it takes way more time then you think it does.
And if you actually believe this why do you think that takes a shorter amount of time to do then implementing something they already have the code for and will work?
Also i love that every time you write that up you change something about how it works.
Because you keep changing what you mean and you keep focusing so hard on needing the slowing part of the spell even though a majority of players do not play with it at all.
Be consistent so people can actually react to what you say.
taking the dr of consecration with you for 3 seconds after you leave your consecration seems fine enough, if all thats really needed is to close that deadly gap when you’re forced out of your consecration against your own terms.
3 seconds to recast it elsewhere is plenty I think, and if it isn’t they can always tweek how long it stays with us.
I liked it following me when it was part of the game but that was with different design to it. I’d like to keep the option of dumping it for a slow when I choose to talent into it more now.
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