Put an ICD on Precog

[Shadeniz-ravencrest]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

from the perspective of a feral, we ferals were always punished heavily for attempting to cast cyclone

Ferals were never punished from attempting to cast Cyclone. If people kick you aren’t locked on your damage and any other CC, simply Regrowth & Root if you had proc ready, and skin (which should never matter as you don’t hardcast Cyclone midfield when you’re the one about to be killed and need to skin within the next 3s), and the kick is out of the way for your actual caster or healers who would be locked ln half their spellbook if they were to get locked on their hardcasted CC.

Actually believing that you were ever punished from using Cyclone as Feral is very ridiculous.

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

You’re ridiculous,
Casting as a melee is punishable especially when I have to get out of form, that means natter what for 2 -3 seconds or casting im not doing anything either way because im globaled and while im globaled i cant enter cat form on time for interrupt as well , getting interrupt locks me of using Barkskin which is huge , you should know that as a rogue- especially because you can oneshot me right there and then with your 300k Secret Technique, in Shadowy Duel or Duel me right after. Thats ridiculous.
Boomie does not need to hardcast Cyclone and it does not need to get out of form to do it either, on top of that boomie is in permanent bear form as Moonkin gives close resamblance to the armor bear form does plus being trained causes moonkins to instant cast Starfire, matter of fact you barely need to cast as a CASTER dps druid, im am a melee.
Also, i know many of you dont like Convoke, but this is in fact your biggest burst you can possibly get to have and its still castable, unlucky tho cause everyone has 2 + pets, back in the day you could mass root them and convoke wouldnt prioritize them but now talents like Mass root are unreachable for feral.
So back to topic is Clone punishable:
-you need to skip defensive talents like Ironfur and 6% all dmage reduction to get 2 talents that literally give you nothing so you can pick Cyclone.
-You also have to waste 2 of your PvP talent slots for it to be worthy pick.
And even so its very clunky and bizzare.
-Casting it unsuccesfully= no kick, no barkskin, no heal.
-Cycloe has very short range so you gotta be really close to your target, so sometimes even rooted targets can reach you and interrupt it.
-You dont have a second Wild Charge to go back on your target so seconds of this Clone are already wasted, and if you’re enot running Wild Attunement that means you manually have to go into cat form which alone is 1 sec of simply doing nothing but adjust your form.

[Shadeniz-ravencrest]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Casting as a melee is punishable especially when I have to get out of form

The days when getting out of form destroys your damage are long gone.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

for 2 -3 seconds or casting im not doing anything either way because im globaled

Cyclone cast is way shorter than 2-3s. Read the tooltip. Also, AND IT IS TRUE FOR ANY CAST, if you cancel or get interrupted then the global of the cast is instantly canceled as well.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

while im globaled i cant enter cat form on time for interrupt as well

And so that is not true, as getting interrupted ends the global incurred by the cast. Also, currently, if you are in Cat Form and cast Cyclone, and the cast is successful, the game AUTOMATICALLY puts you back into Cat form as the cast ends, so you can totally interrupt whatever you like. Cast successful ? Automatically back to Cat Form. Interrupted ? The global ends, so you can press Cat Form.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

getting interrupt locks me of using Barkskin which is huge

It isn’t. Here:

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

and skin (which should never matter as you don’t hardcast Cyclone midfield when you’re the one about to be killed and need to skin within the next 3s)

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Boomie does not need to hardcast Cyclone and it does not need to get out of form to do it either

Balance Druid and Cyclone is its own debate, the point here is that Ferals are hardly punished if at all for casting Cyclone.

Look, I have played my fair share of Feral in the past myself, I’m not just here talking as someone who’s never experienced it. And I’ll say it again, if you pretend, or think, that Feral is actually being punished for casting Cyclone, you’re missing something.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Clone punishable:
-you need to skip defensive talents like Ironfur and 6% all dmage reduction to get 2 talents that literally give you nothing so you can pick Cyclone

This isn’t called a punishment. Nothing and no one forces you to play Cyclone if you want other talents. Surely you realize how utterly idiotic it is to say that you are punished if you pick a talent because it means you don’t pick another, right ? Then every single talent of every single class is punishable, because hey, you have to let go of something else to pick it. Stupid. Lets forget you even said that.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

You also have to waste 2 of your PvP talent slots

LMAO. You call the equivalent a 30% wall for your team from the target’s damage + a 30% MS, and a free, no cooldown Feral Frenzy that doesn’t even require the global as it procs off of another a waste ?

Oh well, Shadowy Duel sure is a waste then. So is Glass Cannon. So much waste because we have to pick those talents !

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Casting it unsuccesfully= no kick, no barkskin, no heal

If you have your healing proc and need to heal, press it first. If you don’t then you didn’t need it, or made a bad decision. As for skin, well, I explained already but if you need more explanations as to why you have to use your mobility to reposition and be safe rather than stand still and cast stuff if YOU KNOW you are just seconds away from burst and will need to skin it, hit me up, explaining the obvious isn’t complicated.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

You dont have a second Wild Charge to go back on your target so seconds of this Clone are already wasted

1. people arent always far away from one another
2. cyclone has some range
3. nothing forces you to wild charge people to cyclone them, in fact when you know you’re going to cross CC to burst because you look at DRs, you look at TF CD etc, it’s way better to walk up to whoever you want to CC ahead of time if they are far (yes that requires 10IQ to think ahead), CC, and then wild charge to your actual target, or, if you do have to wild chargr for CC then you do it smart, stun and fully bleed the kt and then wild charge stun cyclone whatever which will not be wasted at all because your main target is being killed by rot damage
4. ferals have the highest base movement speed while being able to remove snares and roots at will with two sprint CDs so please don’t act like ferals can’t reach people because of mobility reasons
5. your dots don’t require you to be meleeing your target to deal tremendous damage, being away and cycloning still leave them destroy your target as said in 3, I didn’t think that a Feral player would overlook that but here we are

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

and if you’re enot running Wild Attunement that means you manually have to go into cat form which alone is 1 sec of simply doing nothing but adjust your form.

That is the one true statement of the entire post. However the answer to it is simple. If you play Feral with its current tree design WITH CYCLONE AND WITHOUT WILD ATTUNEMENT you are a complete lost cause of idiocy, and I dare hope no one has reached such a low point. So, the problem, if we can even call it that, that you highligh here should in fact never, ever happen.

[Slinks-silvermoon]

Suggestion
For feral , create Talent choice node for Cyclone
(x) does something
(y) Cyclone has a 30second CD , is instant cast and works like Imprison

Then at least in some matchups you’ll be able to get it off without having to cast out of kitty

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

First of all you either dont understand what I am saying or you simply refuse to.

Read again, going out of form = global for forms = going in a form = global
Going out to Cyclone and getting interrupted = global =no cat form = no interrupt
interrupted as a druid = no barkskin.

I know how globals work,
Cyclone cast is 1.6 seconds I even have /cancelform macro on Cyclone so I can benefit from [Lycara’s Teachings] haste talent. I never claimed its 2-3 seconds, 2 to 3 seconds is the time you lose for Cyclone no matter if you cast it or not before you return to your rotation. There many things that are normal about casting, for example if we exclude Chaos magic school, any caster getting interrupted on a school can simply start casting something else imidietely, and I still have to spend time to get in Cat form which is yet a global, do you copy ?

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

And so that is not true, as getting interrupted ends the global incurred by the cast. Also, currently, if you are in Cat Form and cast Cyclone, and the cast is successful, the game AUTOMATICALLY puts you back into Cat form as the cast ends, so you can totally interrupt whatever you like. Cast successful ? Automatically back to Cat Form. Interrupted ? The global ends, so you can press Cat Form.
It just does not feel nice to have to cast as a melee to pop a CC, its even worse when you got only 1 school of magic.

Ideally you’re correct but in practice theres a small delay that sometimes acts like a global and does not allow you to use Skull Bash right away, aside from the situations where you get insta interrupted, then you’re really in a global and cant enter, you can sometimes powershift with Tigers Fury I guess. Thats the same reason why sometimes Restealth + Rake bugs if you do it too fast and especially out of form.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Balance Druid and Cyclone is its own debate, the point here is that Ferals are hardly punished if at all for casting Cyclone.

No its not. Ability as powerful as Cyclone shouldnt be close to instant cast, for anybody especially without a CD, also if Cyclone is gonna be given to ferals it should be castable in Cat Form at least. I dont even want it to be instant cast, its simply clunky and unnecessary.

Stop implying im an idiot.
I know how talents work, its give and take, thats normal what is not normal is to force me to go through Wild Growth to pick Cyclone, and a talent that increases my Magical Damage, as well as Sooth. If Sooth swaps places with Wild Charge and Dispel Corruption with Wild Growth, i wouldnt be saying this. Its just I waste 4 points on talents that are virtually useless to me.
Also if we compare feral druid talents with the talents of rogues or literally any other class you will understand what I mean.
Most of my toolkit that I had for 15 years is hard to reach or unreachable and some of them shoulve been baseline.
Thorns should be baseline,
Leader of the pack should be baseline,
Mass Root & Ursol Vortex = completely unreachable.
Clone should be easier to reach, I got no defensives my bear form is same armor as a plate user, its healing is reduced form 33% to 16%, and thats without the dampening and mortal strike, i need these 6% dmg reduction talent and Ironfur (8k armor in bear) and much more but i digress.
Feral has pretty much unreliable CC , besides the 2 stuns that require you to be next to the target . yeahh.
And as for your comment about

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

nothing forces you to wild charge people to cyclone them

I never really do that. I reach them manually and charge only for kick or stun. However you know the insane mobility some classes have, 1 wild charge is not enough.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

• ferals have the highest base movement speed while being able to remove snares and roots at will with two sprint CDs so please don’t act like ferals can’t reach people because of mobility reasons

Over time you can reach almost anybody, depending on scenario- but reaching them in the moment you require to chain CC them or deal the fatal blow is completely different story and entirely situational.
LoNg aRe ThE dAys WhEn fERAL WaS thE mOSt MobiLe CLaSS.

The problem Im implying is that everything feral does contradict itself:

You’re supposed to keep bleeds on all targets = goodluck rooting.
Ey, i know you’re a melee but wonna cast sum Cyclone? = goodluck casting it though, maybe in 10 seconds when you faked all the garbage.
You wonna Incap Roar= Too bad, even though duration is short, its gonna break 0.001 seconds in because you’re not supposed to let your bleeds fall.
You wonna heal = too bad, Regrowth does 30k max.
You wonna bear form heal= well too bad its also nerfed (50%)
You wonna Stun= too bad your opener was a stun plus Andy plays a paladin and he also likes to stun things xd (i mean i know i dont usually even open with stun so i can have it later, im just saying the design is really stupid)
Ayy man, you got’ze big boss burst ya mon - > convoke = ah, mon there be pets on ye way mon.
Like the design is so outdated, so clunky
nothing you can actually rely on, everything you do requires your 200% of focus and 200% of effort for the effectiveness of barely 70%
Ferals are jack of all garbage mechanics and master of non.
It still baffles me how we didnt get a Immunity like shamans did.

[Slinks-silvermoon]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

maybe in 10 seconds when you faked all the garbage.

What if you take Precog embellish. haste, immune to CC , get to clone & frenzy
Just a thought

edit.
Maybe if you can take it, new meta hidden op
Imagine how troll it is not being able to CC feral +15% haste and frenzy

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

I play Precog since day 1.
I manage, its annoying , everything is cringe but i play feral for 10 years, i will manage.
I just wonder do we design all classes around the requirement of players to have 10 years of experience with them for these said classes to be played ?
Like feral is extreme example of mediocre design, minimal utility, very little efficency and high skill cap.

[Slinks-silvermoon]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

I play Precog since day 1.

If you said this and I missed it, my bad
I’ve dipped in the feral sub before, and it’s a mess. Disagreements over when feral was best but most don’t seem happy with the current iteration

[Shadeniz-ravencrest]

I won’t really answer to what’s above the next quote because I feel like I already did it before. But !

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

I know how talents work, its give and take, thats normal what is not normal is to force me to go through Wild Growth to pick Cyclone, and a talent that increases my Magical Damage, as well as Sooth. If Sooth swaps places with Wild Charge and Dispel Corruption with Wild Growth, i wouldnt be saying this. Its just I waste 4 points on talents that are virtually useless to me

It is true that in that regard the Druid tree as Feral is annoying because you have to invest points in either Restoration or Balance spells that you will likely not use, only to get Cyclone. It feels a bit awkward to talent into it for that reason.

Now though, you can simply see Cyclone as a talent that costs 4 points, due to how insanely good it can be. Keep in mind that ever since the CC nerfs it is the very best CC in the game. And to add to that, and I saod it already, nothing and no one forces you to play it. Can’t cope with interrupts even though they impact you less than any single other interrupted cast from any other spec in the game ? Don’t like the feeling of losing points that you would rather have elsewhere ? In both cases thr solution is simple: don’t pick it, and don’t complain.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Most of my toolkit that I had for 15 years is hard to reach or unreachable and some of them shoulve been baseline.

And so what’s easy to reach is new stuff I suppose, but in any case there is stuff that you can get. Personally I feel like the Druid tree is … okay, I guess, but very slightly awkward at times. But as far as Feral goes this is easily compensated by the fact that the spec tree is completely insane.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Leader of the pack should be baseline

Probably, yeah.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Mass Root & Ursol Vortex = completely unreachable

Good. Feral shouldn’t have those two abilities imo.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

I never really do that. I reach them manually and charge only for kick or stun. However you know the insane mobility some classes have, 1 wild charge is not enough.

Yeah, well good, but if you don’t there is no sense complaining about needing a 2nd wild charge to “come back to the target”, which is what you said.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Ey, i know you’re a melee but wonna cast sum Cyclone? = goodluck casting it though, maybe in 10 seconds when you faked all the garbage

Well. Maybe the way to do it RIGHT NOW is different because precog, but if I may offer some advice, unless you know for 100% sure that the enemy is forced to kick yoir first attempt else it’s instantly game (and then you can fake), just … don’t fake as Feral. You waste much more time trying to be smart and to outplay people than of you just cast. If you just cast, what happens ? The cast can go through, first try, gg you win. And if doesn’t the they interrupt. Ok, no matter, while you were casting your DoTs dealt damage, and your energy replenished so you in fact didn’t lose anything because odds are that you would have spent that second doing nothing because no energy, or maybe you’d have spent it doing nothing 5s later, or w.e. and now, there is no kick, if you play with a caster, he can freecast, if your healer needs to heal, he can freecast, and 3s after you’re no longer locked, and Cyclone lands. Or gets another interrupt, which is also fine because that means, again, that your casters and your healers never have to deal with any interrupt whatsoever, and that withiut you losing any damage since you’d have downtime if you stayed in Cat Form 100% of the time.

So, it was really way better to not fake for interrupts. Or not much at least. As I said fishing for precog changes things but once people adapt it’ll be the same. They won’t risk the kick, it’ll ne micro CC or nothing, so you won’t fake. Reflect and stuff are another story but that’s not the point.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

You wonna Stun= too bad your opener was a stun plus Andy plays a paladin and he also likes to stun things

Not sure how this is a Feral problem, and not sure how this is related to Cyclone in anyway, but… yeah, yeah, that is annoying.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

If precog goes, then also melee mobility and micro cc has to go down.

Simple as that.

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Now though, you can simply see Cyclone as a talent that costs 4 points,

How would you feel if you play a Subtlety rogue and you have to invest 2 talent points into 6% Envenom dmg increase and 1 Sinister Strikeas(Ability) just to take 1 Sap or 1 Gauge ? a total of 4 points.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

In both cases thr solution is simple: don’t pick it, and don’t complain.

I will complain as much as I see fit. For I do see fit to do so.
However you and I, we both know that theres no way to create pressure without CC, i cant create any pressure with 2 stuns, and i cant interrupt a “go” either, the only thing i can peel off with is Roots, and roots break really easily from my own bleeds as I said earlier so I will DR pretty fast and run out of options, and Dampening is ticking.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Mass Root & Ursol Vortex = completely unreachable

Good. Feral shouldn’t have those two abilities imo

Can you elaborate on why do you think that should be the case ?
Im really curious to know.
And p.s. its on 1 node, its either Ursol or Mass root.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Yeah, well good, but if you don’t there is no sense complaining about needing a 2nd wild charge to “come back to the target”, which is what you said.

When was the last time you had to sit on the mage buddy ? If you can recall a time when you were fighting vs a mage/hunter/warlock or anything that can kyte, you need to interrupt the healer and at the same time keep pressure on the main target, sometimes you would waste a charge on attempting to catch either the healer or the class like mage/hunter/draktyr. Happens.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

So, it was really way better to not fake for interrupts. Or not much at least. As I said fishing for precog changes things but once people adapt it’ll be the same. They won’t risk the kick, it’ll ne micro CC or nothing, so you won’t fake. Reflect and stuff are another story but that’s not the point.

Thats an interresting take I also had with a friend in discord and thats the way it should be played. I agree.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Not sure how this is a Feral problem, and not sure how this is related to Cyclone in anyway, but… yeah, yeah, that is annoying.

It is not a big problem, as I said, I rarely open with stun , i usually save it so I can use it defensively or offensively once I build up my bleeds and the stars align.
It just adds to the clunkyness feral design has, rogues can open with garrote/ambush/shadow blade if they simply want to save a stun DR for a later “go’”.
And feral has only Rake and I have to give up of empowering my strongest bleed = rake, just so i can save a DR on opener.

[Shadeniz-ravencrest]

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

How would you feel if you play a Subtlety rogue and you have to invest 2 talent points into 6% Envenom dmg increase and 1 Sinister Strikeas(Ability) just to take 1 Sap or 1 Gauge ? a total of 4 points

There are pretty stupid things in the Rogue trees actually. But that isn’t the topic and I am not here to give a lecture.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

I will complain as much as I see fit

That is a pretty cool attitude ! In all seriousness, find solutions instead.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

i cant create any pressure with 2 stuns

Well you should be able to because arenas aren’t 1v1 so when you stun TWO targets all by yourself, if you’re in 2v2 it means NO ONE can stop your teammate’s follow up CC (or your own Cyclone), and if you’re in 3v3 it means you have TWO teammates free to follow up CC and only ONE enemy to stop BOTH of them (AND your Cyclone !!!), assuming they have zero instant CC to use alongside the stun. That is how pressure is generated starting from two stuns. Very feasible. It was never question to land 5 Cyclones over 20s with no setup whatsoever to have pressure as Feral. This isn’t Balance.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Can you elaborate on why do you think that should be the case ?
Im really curious to know.
And p.s. its on 1 node, its either Ursol or Mass root

I know the tree mister Druid, no worries.

Well, that is simply my own opinion on the matter. Feral, as a melee, already has very strong CC options with a lot of stuns (could add the AoE incap but lets go with Bash as this is more meta right now), Cyclone, instant root on PredSwift procs, spammable castable root, a knockback … plus a lot of mobility, considering, even if it isn’t Arms Warrior or WW Monk mobility. I don’t think they should have, on top, and AoE root and some vortex. They have enough in that department, especially considering the damage they can dish out. I’ll add that I wouldn’t like any melee to have those tools anyway. Being able to AoE root as a melee is actually rather strong, same with chaining people to the ground. Ehw there is a reason why Spear was so outrageous. Vortex isn’t anywhere near as good, but it’s the same concept. I don’t really like it on a melee.

But as I said, opinion.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

When was the last time you had to sit on the mage buddy ?

Sitting on a Mage as Feral isn’t overly difficult, and never has been. AT makes it a bit more annoying than it used to be when they didn’t have it if you don’t have a purge with you, but that is it. Nova you break free of. Slows, too. Poly, immune. They can only DB, which can be dispelled as nothing else needs to be dispelled on a Feral, and Ring which they can’t use if you are not in the dispelled DB. Or then the Ring gets dispelled. That leaves the knockback, luckily the chargr has less CD, and blinks, which can easily be caught up because again, slow removal, Dash, StampRoar, while the Mage is slowed by the infected thing debuff I don’t recall thr name of (Infected Wounds?). However sitting on a Mage against Mage/caster is horrible because you have to use your mobilityto go AWAY to survive, so you don’thave it to connect back, but that holds true for every single melee in the game, has always held true, and will likely always. Oh and, the argument of “yes but to break nova or slows I have to use a GCD” yeah, they also have to do that to apply them, only they do no damage while on global while Feral does with bleeds. So … the Feral has the easiest part in the match-up really. Right now though Fire deletes everything while pressing spacebar, but that’s more of a tuning issue than a “we can’t catch him as Feral” problem. But dying makes it hard to connect, yes.

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

Thats an interresting take I also had with a friend in discord and thats the way it should be played. I agree.

Hehe, nice !

@Alessathrina-argent-dawn

as I said, I rarely open with stun

Hm, I think you should always open with a Rake stun no matter what. The opener is where you use your first DR. Can’t really afford to have weak opener with stealth based classes, they are kind of designed to have opener advantage.

Also right now it’s pretty cool because you can Rake from stealth with TF and Incarn up, FF, Swarm if you play it, Rip, any global here if you don’t play Swarm, like Slash to trigger Bloodtalons, and then you can just stealth Rake into FB so you basically have the 6s Kidney Shot that even Rogues no longer have in your opener, your biggest bleeds up, and a huge bite. That’s good. Don’t open weak !

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

There are pretty stupid things in the Rogue trees actually. But that isn’t the topic and I am not here to give a lecture.

Like what exactly ? I do play rogue as well btw.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

That is a pretty cool attitude ! In all seriousness, find solutions instead.

Thanks.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Well, that is simply my own opinion on the matter. Feral, as a melee, already has very strong CC options with a lot of stuns (could add the AoE incap but lets go with Bash as this is more meta right now), Cyclone, instant root on PredSwift procs, spammable castable root, a knockback … plus a lot of mobility, considering, even if it isn’t Arms Warrior or WW Monk mobility. I don’t think they should have, on top, and AoE root and some vortex. They have enough in that department, especially considering the damage they can dish out. I’ll add that I wouldn’t like any melee to have those tools anyway. Being able to AoE root as a melee is actually rather strong, same with chaining people to the ground. Ehw there is a reason why Spear was so outrageous. Vortex isn’t anywhere near as good, but it’s the same concept. I don’t really like it on a melee.

-Well why, enh shamans have charge, Lasso, AOE stun, AOE zone control totel, knockback… actually quite powerful knockback not just Typhoon that i pick once in a blue moon, mass root, knockback from coming back from immunity.
Whats the issue for ferals to have access to Ursol/Mass Root node ( they’re on the same node you cant pick both Ursol and Mass Roots) talent ? It would most likely be you either have points for one or the other, or put simply you will either be able to pick Cyclone or Mass Roots / Ursol.
Comparing it to other melees and hybrids it does not seem like a big deal , especially as things stand right now with feral, we got no other utility, we cant offheal, we have no immunity, Clone requires setup, even Convoke requires setup, thats why we need Mass Roots, so Convoke can be a more viable pick, to deal with the pets and be more efficient at peeling off.
Shamans have mass root by default.
Come on- an actualy signature druid move.
And btw Ferals play Typhoon only with the AOE build, and that build is not really great RN, you only pick that build in very niche situations with lots of pets since as I said theres no other way of dealing with them= Mass Root is unavailable.

@Shadeniz-ravencrest

Don’t open weak !

Making a non-stealth Rake is not a weak opener its just 36% less dmg from Rake xD and theres a way around it:
You can use Berserk/Incarn beforehand and still open with non-stealth rake it will deal 50% more damage. (the stealth one with the stun deals 36% increased dmg, so 14 less
Opening with stun on a Warlock most cases is a huge problem, since you need the DR a few seconds later when he gathers damage.

Final Thoughts
You see I know my way around things, a casual player wouldnt know. This class requires way too much knowledge not because its that high skill cap but because the design is clunky and unfinished, oldated and comparable to the other classes it also makes no sense.
Yes we can shift out of snare and slows, but in moments where it matters, monks, rogues and warriors are faster reacting than me powershifting for 5 seconds just to get to the target.
In terms of utility ret paladins,warriors,rogues, dhs,enh shamans do a lot better.
In terms of offhealing → ret paladins and enh shamans do better
Like we’re the only stealth class that has no restealth and is forced to play Night Elf for the Shadowmeld.
Class is really limited by so many things including Dampening and the closed space arenas offer, which limits kyting in so many situations.
Us getting Ursol/Vortex and maybe baseline Thorns or at least a little something would really make a big difference for us.
I really believe your opinion is wrong.

[Duzurîx-burning-blade (Duzurîx)]

@Nakamura-outland

if kick doesn’t land Precog procs
if kick land haste bonus to the guy interrupting

? so whats the point of precog then? It was ment to be reward for juking…now on top of getting intterupted which is basicaly a stun for many specs…you also give a hero to the ones that kicks…amazing…what about classes that doesnt have a kick?

For OP.
Why should precog have an ICD? You can get kicked back to back to back to back into stun stun stun disorient and kicks are off cd again?

Stop the god damn crying and learn to kick instead of macroing it into the rotation like you mongoloid zugs did up until this point.

[Nakamura-outland]

it still works if you juke, i mean, im okay with leaving it like this, i honestly don’t see the problem in precog at all.

[Duzurîx-burning-blade (Duzurîx)]

@Nakamura-outland

it still works if you juke

Yes. My issue is with giving even more rewards to the people who kicks…if all kics have 45sec and up cds then ye…go for it…but go trough 2 low cd kicks(and now even 3 because 5 heads at blizzard gave all healers exc. priests a kick too…which wasnt needed at all) is aids enough.

When youre juking youre basicaly ccing yourself too…why nobody see that? Everyone just mentioning what is anyoing to them specificaly or what doesnt benefit them. Nobody from these zugloids cant see past the narrow tunel they learned from past x years, bacuse it worked for them so far. Nobody even mention how unbeliveably anyoing it is to go trough all the bull kicks micro cc reflects, groundings, immunities or enemies just simply LoSing you just to cast one mindblast that crits for 25k or one VT that gets autodispelled by another set of uneccesairy BS they put into the game. But hur dur locks and moonkins are broken so lets nerf every single caster and the tools they have because johny cannot just win with pure damage anymore.

What is the alternative of juking for melee? What they have to go trough to do damage nowadays? Because mobility sure isnt an issue at all…everyone who decides to go you just stick to you like a glue…

What is the mitigation for “beign bad” at juking? Because, you know, not everyone is good at it…many ppl dont even know what that means…

W/e …precog is fine as it is…learn to kick…just as we have to learn to juke. pce

[Alessathrina-argent-dawn]

Hey guy, lets not overexhadurate nobody macros their kicks into a /castsequence macro, come on.
I actually benefit from Precog as Feral but its really not well thought out:

-not every player is in Discord communicating their interrupts, if 2 or more interrupts are cast at the same time by 2 or more players at the same time not only they lose their interrupts but they grant immunity to the caster who didnt even manage to juke anything.
Also all interrupts except for the mage one have been nerfed and tuned down.
-not all casters benefit equally from Precog, for me as a feral it acts out pretty average, for warlocks,balance druids and mages it acts insane.
-Fake-casting is a really cool party trick and should not remain unrewarded however classes like warlocks and balance druids should get the nerf hammer.
-Im gonna go ahead and shoot myself in the foot because Precog duration is long enough for me to cast Convoke but Precog feels really too long it should not be longer than a single cast (2sec)

[Nakamura-outland]

yeah, just like sheeps are not called on zugzugblastormer who break them constantly, but it is what it is.

[Wispers-silvermoon]

ure joking right? even with precog up… when i have dk and war or me… they can still grip to interupt cast… or stormbolt… or god forbit u get a cast out… war just has reflect up

[Yojeong-kazzak]

Precog gives immunity to all CC so if you have precog up, you cant get stunned/gripped etc.