Were you there during those expansions?? Have you not heard the ENDLESS crying about how bad those expansions were? The longer a game exists, the more changes are being made, and the more nostalgia will rise. Changes are constantly being made of which some will love them and some will hate them.
If wow were to be released today in this exact state it would be an incredibly good game. Nobody ever talks about what the game lacks, everyone only compares the now to the past.
Imo the biggest prob atm is bad class balance but lets face facts, was wow ever remotely close to being balanced?
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Based on fantasy, not on what you can see. It would be a mediocre mmorpg experience, because the social design is shot to hell and thereâs not enough depth in class designs to keep players intrigued as they would then explore the various things, a lot of which has been abandoned design-wise because itâs not current content anymore.
Theyâve cut dungeons into small pieces of themselves. Raids are more streamlined than before, with smaller room designs to match it. The game is not the same as it was back in the day.
To list the expansions the guy you replied to mentioned, wotlk was closer to the gameâs roots. Cata is where they started experimenting more with going âoutside the boxâ in class designs, and certain things were made easier. MoP is when they got high and gave everyone pretty much everything because why the hell not? And some people loved it, others didnât. At the same time theyâve messed around the most in the history of the game with the social design in these 3 expansions.
The ICC patch in wotlk introduced the dungeon queue. Cata introduced LFR, and iirc wasnât this when CRZ became a thing too? Or was CRZ a MoP thing?
Anyway, so in MoP they got rid of battlegroups completely, and subsequently caused lag on the servers. There was even a lag script you could use to throttle the game, and fake jumping down stuff like the bridge on bladeâs edge when the lag would rubberband you back up, and this would trick a lot of people.
The pvp server lag wasnât even addressed until, what⊠the end of WoD? The start of Legion? Somewhere around there.
Youâre not wrong that heâs looking at it with rose-tinted glasses, but heâs not wrong when he says the game was more enjoyable back then. The game is full of chores now. Like doing the dishes. Cleaning. Washing. This is a shared impression of the game today, by many players.
Thereâs even a metric used by gaming companies today, called âplayer engagementâ. This is also the reason you can see such a shift in the gameâs design compared to the gameâs roots, which you yourself have said you never played so I guess thereâs that, but the reason they even have all of these daily quests revamp into world quests, and manipulating the RNG to prolong the time it takes for the average player to get the items one wants (you can see this based on drop rates overall, among other things), is all because of this one metric.
This metric is a central part of the gameâs design now. The problem is what they removed to enable such a design. Which is why you shouldnât just take their word for it when they give a public statement saying that they removed the vendors for PvP:ers because âpeople bought the wrong itemsâ. They more likely did it to increase this metric, and gave an excuse that wouldnât upset players too much.
But so what weâre left with is this tablet gaming in every facet of the game. They took out the fun, the exploration, the socialising, all for the sake of this metric and lack of creative conceptual designs (except for the storyline itself, but that isnât really as relevant to gamers as it is to the roleplaying community).
PS:
They did other major changes to the social design of the game in MoP (and maybe in cata too, memory is a bit hazy on when), but I just went with the things that had the most impact on gamers overall. In terms of PvP:ers then the removal of arena teams carried a huge impact. Also the implementation of the group finder had a huge impact as well, on both PvE:ers and PvP:ers.
You may think all of the changes Iâve mentioned were good, or some of them, but they were all bad. They streamlined it. Removed the systematic encouragement to socialise, whereas of now most people treat the automatic grouping of queues and the group finder as a way to fill a slot where they wouldnât care whether itâs filled by a bot or a player as long as the role is done well. Which has kept brainwashing people into the norm of today. And as Iâve mentioned a lot of times, social butterflies still likes it. Social butterflies have still succeeded socially in the game, despite all of these changes. But they are not the norm.
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Idk how they manipulate that metric but Iâm sure about that if it would be realistic it would not go in the positive direction in the past 3 expansion. Especially PvP wise.
Pve wise might be a + from wod to legion, but not from legion to BFA. They kept the same affixes from legion to BFA and wasnât a good idea, because they simply do not scale the same way in the 2 expansions and the difference between the dungs.
Also there are less subs and if blizzard making the measurement based on the same number Of people, and they give + feedback the ration can skyrocket due to the same nr will be higher %
Idk personally I just cancel my subscription every month and type in the comment "the game because a shadow of himself with not enjoyable class design, class depth being gone, etc etc " hoping they will realise one day.
But since I do not enjoy any other game, beside AoE and heroes (3,5) Iâm sticking to this1. Beside the gameexp being sh@t the games optimization is pretty damn good, one of few reasons I still play it , since Iâm playing from a 9yo laptop
Ps: personally I donât mind battleground being gone, but the stable arena teams were something that I miss now
They keep a few overtuned speccs a few weeks/months. People buy 110 boost to play that meta.
Few weeks/months later they nerf to ground and buff other speccs overtune so People once again buy 110 boost to play meta.
Money money⊠dont care about players anymore ! Sick of it!
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Pvp is rotten to the bone just like the expansion. Enjoy Bfa.
I havenât been on Retail in 10 years but someone explain to me what the logic of removing Resilience was.
" This stat found on PvP gear makes you too strong in PvP so weâre removing it "
Basically they thought PvE gear being bad in PvP was bad, didnât they?
Like⊠how idiotic is that? PvP should not require PvE and the other way around. You donât balance PvP around PvEâŠ
There were a number of reasons for it.
One was that it wasnât a very easy-to-understand stat. It had some weird diminishing effects, and how much you needed depended a lot on your opponent and PvP Power and so on.
A second reason was that it created a barrier between PvP and PvE. If you wanted to do PvP, then you had to have gear with Resilience, otherwise you were cannon fodder.
And if you wanted to do PvE, then you absolutely couldnât use any gear with Resilience, because it was completely useless.
And a third reason was that it proved difficult to balance, especially over the course of an expansion as players accumulated more and more Resilience on their gear - on top of all their other defensive stats.
So there was some not-so-elegant balance adjustments made to prevent PvP fights from dragging out needlessly as everyone effectively became mini-tanks.
And a fourth reason was that Blizzard figured out that a way to achieve the same % reduction in damage was to simply give players a higher % of health, so thatâs what they did! Thatâs why character health pools spike at certain level brackets - itâs for PvP purposes mainly, ensuring that people donât actually kill each other too fast. And having done that, Resilience as a stat is somewhat superfluous.
What Blizzard have tried to move toward is a stat line-up thatâs easier to understand. Versatility is a bit more straight-forward than Resilience and PvP Power ever was.
And then theyâve tried to move the item design toward a space where gear is universally useful, so there isnât any big differences between gear obtained in PvP or PvE. And you can use everything everywhere, ensuring that thereâs low barriers to entry for all the content.
Not sure if the current design is ideal. But not sure if Resilience would be a good stat in todayâs design landscape either. Personally I kind of like that you can customize your gear to be good for something specific, like PvP or Raiding. The Azerite Traits are nice, but theyâre a small part of the whole, so to speak.
All the points you raised are very reasonable, Iâd be on their team if I was a developer. But I think most people need to understand that any call for âPvP gear vendorsâ or âBring Resilienceâ back is all the same painpoint: PvP players dislike having to do so much PvE in order to be relevant.
If I were a PvE player, Iâd dislike having to do an equivalent amount of PvP as well.
So sure, Resilience perhaps wasnât the most elegant solution. But it was a solution to a problem that is really far easier to fix: let PvPers gear up by PvPing, and PvErs gear up by PvEing. If someone does both, they should get an edge, but not to the tune of 20ilvls over a âspecialist playerâ or weâre back to square one.
In my opinion, the rate at which gear dropped from Arena in the start of BFA was really a bit too high, but they nerfed it to the very ground. Revise that nerf, and people will have enough drops to get some fat WFs/TFs to make PvEing an entirely optional activity.
Quite frankly, if gear was to be fixed in say, next patch, Iâd argue people would still feel PvP is in a bad spot. I would, too. Because at least when it comes to gear, we can actually do something about it. Most of us can clear M+10 for weekly, and many of us have boosted enough PvErs to have friends in âhighâ places to get Mythic Uldir lewt. Or we can just PuG it.
Itâs the stuff one has no control over that is always so disheartening as a player to have to deal with. And that falls squarely down on the state of some specs in PvP and the incredibly slow, if ever, hotfixing of so blatantly broken and/or bugged stuff. Pair that with the complete disregard for PvP as a legitimate activity with their obvious unwillingness to communicate or even document PvP changes, and weâre back to square one.
The biggest problem of pvp now is that you have to play PVE for gear. PVE gear is better for PvP now, it is easier and faster to get PVE gear now. Everyone who wants to be competetive in PvP have to do a lot of PvE for azerite levels and gear.
All PvP community is forced for island expeditions and azerite quests for azerite levels and mythic uldir and dungeons for gear.
The problem is majority of people who play arena and battlegrounds do not like pve as boring and not fun.
It would be ok if PvE gear is better for arena but they give us vendors with both PvP and PvE gear for honor and conquest points, but they refused to do so.
They showed us MIDDLE FINGER when we asked for PvP vedors and proper PvP gear by making PvE vendor with very good gear and removed gear scaling in PvP to enforce PvP community play PvE even more.
THE ONLY SOLUTION NOW IS GO PLAY PRIVATE SERVER.
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Blizzard wants it (PvP) to be competitive and yet you canât get all traits from PvP only activity, You are forced to do +10 keys and bonus to that weekly cache no longer gives azerite armor, so you have to wait till you get enough residuum dust to be able to buy RNG piece or highly overpriced wanted piece.
And to add salt to the wound: you do not get residuum dust from PvP chest.
Blizzard, it is time to explain yourselfâŠ
Still not sure this is true, yes it is way harder to get good gear in PvP but it does scale at a rate of something like 5 ilvl per FoS title.
I did few tests playing arena with different gear and did not see scaling at all after 8.1. At the beginning of BFA i did almost same damage on my disc priest being ilvl 280 and 360. After 8.1 i saw significiant damage difference on my lock and warrior, even 10 ilvl matters.
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Dont worry Ion hajjikosta will give you the real fun ⊠because you dont know whats is good for you ⊠yUo ThInK yUo WaNt BuT yUo DoNt WaNt
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About Legion XD remember how Ilovelucy created fresh 110lvl and instantly queued 2.8 mmr arenas. where is pve farm in legion. are u serious? at start only we had to farm pve, but its normal, no?
Yeah and instead of PvE being for PvE gear and PvP being for PvP gear now you have PvE being superior for both.
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This show how clueless you are. The lead developer has no clue about anything that has to do with pvp. Its the lead pvp designer that is responsible.
Clueless ??
Trivago.
Its sad cause its true, everything which there was to show an exceptional skill gap between players is basically gone. Any warrior(or insert other class here.) can do a 3 button rotation and it wont look any different regardless of rating. For damage dealers atleast
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I donât know about that.
In practice, then the PvE gameplay activities are more numerous than the PvP ones. And since the optimal way to gear up fast is to dip into as many gameplay activities as possible, youâre naturally encouraged to do some PvE as well.
But that doesnât detract from the fact that PvP has a gear progression system on its own. Gladiator-bracket Arena gear is as good as Mythic Raid gear. And PvP Azerite Traits are still - often - preferable to PvE ones for PvP.
So if youâre a good PvPer you can gear up just fine through PvP - and many have done so.
I think itâs just that many average players finds PvE attractive to do, because hey, itâs more gear! Why wouldnât you do that occasional Warfront for a 370 item when you easily can? And why shouldnât you?
I donât think itâs an issue that an MMORPG has an item design that encourages players to play the game to its fullest, rather than just having everyone bunker down in a single gameplay aspect.
So yeah, Iâm not sure thereâs a design problem here. Maybe the gearing process in PvP needs to be a little more generous? Early in the expansion it seemed almost as if PvP was the superior option to gear up compared to PvE (until Warfronts and Raids started to unlock).
I do. In the next patch Azerite will have an extra slot. The ways to get Azerite:
- PvP and pray. Also needs high rating for a proper ilvl
- Residuum ( PvE only )
- New Raid ( PvE )
Itâs pretty clear which the superior way to gear up is.
Getting to glad is way harder than mythic raiding.
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