Second, I feel sorry for holy paladins, already behind other healers and kinda squishy since almost everything is magic damage, now they also lose 30% armor.
More armor for cloth is aceptable, but plate losing armor LOL, poor dks also
On the other hand, disc/holy priest with focused will perma 30% wall will be even more tankier.
Warlocks are going to be even more tankier, on top of all of their armor, they even have talents like soul link reducing % all damage taken.
Nice rogue changes btw, -10% evis damage, not like they have infinite CC, mobility, vanish cdr, cloack immunity, smoke, duel.
Revert CC changes, tune class damage and mobility.
PvP is a mess. Your changes are horrible. Makes me wonder if this changes were brought up by an intern.
P.s- Also uncessary 20%/28% damage buffs to ret damage( 10% only to FV would be fine), can’t wait for you guys to nerf rets by 35% next week.
3v3 2400+ → Holy paladin 2nd place, losing only to RDruid. Beating imbalanced holy and discs SOLO. 39 Holy paladins against 19 discs and 17 holy priests. 39 Holy paladins against 36 discs and holy priests TOGETHER. Poor poor poor paladins
Solo Shuffle 2400+ → Holy paladin surprise, again 2nd place, losing only to RDruid. 100 HPalas above 2400, while 31 disc and 17 holy priests. Again 1 spec beats holy and disc TOGETHER. Btw, 48 healer priests multiplied by two is STILL less than just holy paladins. Still feeling sorry for poor paladins?
Rets are still lower than half of the specs in 3v3. They’re doing goodish in shuffle, but nothing special.
See, this is why Blizzard should base on numbers, not community feedback. Because like 99% of posters in this community have no god damn idea about what they are talking about. AND for some reason they have arrogance to speak in tone like above.
Arcane, Outlaw and Sub rogue have less representation than Ret so they need buffs and are bad or what? There is more to read then just the amount of speccs overall in 3v3 bracket.
Cause balance of a class is not only about itself but also its compositions and individual strength in their role of a comb. Its not just that easy.
Depends how you write it. The buff became roughly 5-6% if I dont remember it wrong so while actively saying “20%/28% damage buffs to ret damage” gives a wrong impression.
There are 88 arcanes in 3v3 above 2100. And there are 32 arcanes above 2400 in 3v3. What does this say to us? Low representation, but high success ratio. 36.36% of mages above 2100 achieve 2400. That’s a pretty large number. Let’s remember that.
Let’s take Arms Warrior. 183 above 2100. And only 38 above 2400. What does this say to us? Much larger representation, but much lower success ratio. Only 20.77% of Arms above 2100 achieve 2400. That’s a much lower success ratio number.
From above logic Arcane > Arms.
How is this difficult?
I’m sure you’ll find no issue in applying this to Poor Holy Pala situation in comparison to other healers.
i dont think you completly get cause i filtered the specc above 2400. This cuts out the Situation about skillfloor of speccs/classes cause all ppl above 2.4 are actually on a pretty decent level.
my point is that like outlaw and sub aswell as oter classes can have a really low representation but still beeing op.
THis mainly cause of Specc Popularity overall, Specc roles in a comb and with what other specc they compete in specific roles.
Like Dh, ww, Arms, Outlaw in majority of combs compete on the brawler, MS + consistant dps bringing role. Most of the combs, ither WMD, WWMD, RMD, Thunder etc you can replace the Warrior, if he lacks major strengh with either outlaw, dh, ww while not really changing the combs in their playstile for example.
The 2nd thing is, Speccs like Warrior, Dh ww ect have overall ways more solid compositions than like rogue, sv hunter etc.
That also affect overall representation in a way that you cant like argument oh rogue specc representation is so low so they must be bad. No they just fit fewer specific combs in general but still do insanely stroing in those.
Im not here to argue abot in what state holy paladin or ret is, im here to question the logic of.
“well Ret is bad cause its just in middle of representation” sort of logic.
Right, that’s why I’ve given you both numbers from 2100 and 2400 to show that spec popularity did not matter in understanding if holy paladin (or arcane mage in that scenario) is “Behind all other healers” or not.
There are more retris than elems on 2100, but more elems than retris on 2400+. Does that ring a bell? Despite being less popular, elem is performing better, which is an indicator that elem by no means is weaker than retri.
Disc is more popular than Holy Paladin, but is more than TWICE less represented in higher ratings. This is no “Representation doesn’t mean strength” issue. This is a straight huge billboard saying HPala is just fine. And by no means is
Think you are argueing against me while i am not particulary arguing against your point. Or i missunderstand something^^
You are just going into the popularity overall and compare its performance on higher rating based on the represantation at higher rating.
And i am coming with a argumentation that the representation at higher ratings, cause i only took that into my post, also not only base allrdound the speccs own sigle strenght or op’ness.
i know what you want to say, i was just more focused on not just the differences in higher ratings based on general popularity but also something you cant show off in those representations. Which is comp diversity for the specific speccs, and role competition where you have to go into deeper analizing then just pull up the representation board^^
As said im not arguing against your point Hope you understand
Addition: But yes your Point is one part of a bigger cake, i just tried to “enlight” the whole cake. I just didnt want to write a masters degree work of 23 sites PDF in a Forum. Cause i also have a private life^^ Just tried to write it as short as possible with all my points in general^^
I’m not, because there’s nothing to argue about.
Holy paladins are not and were not “already behind other healers”. Not by representation, not by success ratio, not by the number of spots in top ladder. That’s a statistically proven above fact. There’s no arguing.
This is a good point. And it’s actually favoring the statement that HPala is by no means behind. Paladin can play ANY comp with ANY class, as paladin’s utility is always useful and different DRs make him a good addition to any team’s CC.
I do understand and nobody is arguing.
I’m curious what the original poster is going to come up with.
In 3s, they are. The spec is bad on high rating. It cannot compete with RDruid, RSham or HPriest healing, brings almost no damage, is subject to RNG procs (sometimes nothing happens but Holy Shock doesn’t crit, so there is no healing), and the CDs that used to be the strength of the class aren’t actually that powerful.
But most importantly, it is a victim spec right now. Almost every single comp simply goes HPal when there is one, and the HPal dies, or has to overtrade and then someone else dies later. Trust me, everyone is happy to face a HPal right now, even specs like Assa that are supposed to be “countered” by it, because it just dies.
I assume it is more popular on mid tier rating because people don’t do the best damage they could, so it is harder to destroy the HPal, and they also just often don’t attack it when they should. It is also doing well in solo at all ratings because there is much less coordination so while they are also good targets there they are way less likely to die due to goes being bad, and their CDs are much more impactful in that bracket because games are so short and tempo based.
This is all great and amazing, but I don’t see numbers. I see only your own subjective opinion. Don’t get me wrong, I know who you are, I’ve faced you multiple times and you’re a really good player. But it doesn’t matter. Numbers say paladin is 2nd best healer above 2400. That’s it, no arguing, no space for wiggling. I’ve found a 2500+ statistics with still decent pool of players. And guess what?
Paladin is still going nose-to-nose with rshaman. Still beating Holy and Disc TOGETHER. Still beating monks and evokers. Things start changing on like 2600 or something. But honestly, this is just not an indicator, as the pool of players is like 20 ppl and there are only Rank1s of Rank1s.
Original poster is a 2400 S1 SL guy, so we’re not talking 2600 right now.
So above 2400+ Paladin is losing ONLY to an absolutely worst spec per the game’s history - rdruid. Things change only closer to 2600 or something. But it doesn’t really matter to be honest, you can’t base on statistics of like 20 characters.
Does abovesaid fit well into
Please, sit on disc, get 2400 and then listen to druids and paladins complaining.
I’ll love to see that.
Edit: I know nobody cares (I care, I like shuffle), but try playing disc in shuffle and then tell me looking in my eyes that paladins are poor nerfed creatures.
AWC: no HP at all except for the attempts at countering Sub WW with BoPs, which did not work, and even then not all those who could play a HPal at tournament level tried to use it in that scenario. The spec was not played. FW was. RDruid was. RSham was. HPriest was. I believe there was a dragon too, or at least two of the top8 teams had one in tgeir back pocket and comps that they practised with it.
So tell me, are all the top8 teams so fair-play that they all decided not to use the 2nd best healer at all, despite having numerous players quite capable on it, and instead settled for what you deem “worse” healers ?
EU ladder right now, at the time of this post: 2 HPals in top 100. One is a main HPal and plays with me, the other is a main Priest and is Jayti, you know, the PRIEST WHO WON CUP 1 PLAYING ONLY HOLY PRIEST. Is he too so fair play that he decided not to play HPal, better than HPriest according to you, aimply to give other teams a chance ? As a means of comparison, in top 100 alongside the 2 HPals we have 11 RDruids, 5 RShams, 6 MWs and 3 HPriests and 2 PEvokers. WHAT DO YOU KNOW, PALADIN IS THE LEAST REPRESENTED HEALER CLASS AT TOP RATING, JUST LIKE I SAID ?!?!?!?
Basically Disc is nonexistant at high rating right now (it is way too easy to dampen), then HPal is the least represented tied with PEvoker, and everything else, everything else is more played.
I had fun looking at page 2, so ranks 101 to 200 basically, for the sake of it, and we have 10 RDruids, 2 PEvokers, 5 MWs, 2 HPals, 6 Priests playing healer (not sure if its 6x HPriest or 5x HPriest 1x Disc), 5x RSham.
So this is top 200, which goes on to a bit below 2600.
You start to see the trens in representation ? It is identical in both top 100 and 101-200. HPal at high rating is terrible. That’s it.
You asked for numbers you got them, but honestly I can’t believe we even had to have this discussion when all you needed to do was open the ladder and check by yourself without the need for me to do it. It is honestly annoying when people can’t even check what they are talking about.
Now, there a little bit more HPals the further down you go. Why? Because the spec is bad, so they struggle going up. If you have spare time, feel free to check the pvp history of the Paladins below top 200, and you will find mostly good ones. Yet, there are worse players with better specs above. There are also alts of those Paladins (other specs ofc) higher. Surely a coincidence.
I was talking to you politely, I see no reason for your passive agression.
I haven’t watched AWC, therefore I completely trust what you’re saying. This argument below is applicable to literally anything.
Why would anyone play anything else besides RDruid? It’s obviously the best healer atm. Are they so fairplay? Why would anyone else play something besides (who won? Outlaw?) WINNER spec? Are they fairplay? Why do I play disc, even tho it’s literal trash? Because I’d still be higher and better on disc than on RDruid, no? Same goes for tops. They are different breed, but still humans. 3.6k main resto Shaman will be still worse on other healers (still 3k+, yeah, but worse). Or am I wrong?
My presumption is that people played only the specs they master and feel 100% confident on. Plus for some reason you’re dropping the fact that hpala does worse job assisting the AWC meta (outlaw) than let’s say druid or shaman or even HPriest? Taking 10 people as a pool for conclussions is a bad idea.
I agree, makes sense. That’s why I’ve written this:
I literally wrote that things are changing closer to the very-very-very top.
Yes, but this trend changes dramatically 2550-2400. This is where average player ends right now. I understand people on 2400 are probably free wins and vegetables for you guys, but right now I believe 2400 is a pretty decent CR to be in. And to get Gladiator on HPala is statistically easier, than on any other healer except RDruid. Maybe ~ to RShaman.
No, you’ve just decided to flash your expertise. I wrote the things you write in my previous post. It does not matter how hpala is performing on AWC. 99.999999% of posters in here will never reach even close to that rating.
OP’s skill level is ± same as mine, we’re equal exp. On our level, HPala is performing great. That’s the statement.
Now that is a good point. Literally: HPalas dominate lower Gladiator bracket over almost everyone else because they are bad.
Can disc please be that bad? I don’t even want to be represented on Page 1 or Page 2 or whatever. Just be AT LEAST #2 of healing specs above 2.4k?
EDIT: no way you’re not sleeping
EDIT2: nvm, erased the part about pala’s teammates.
I don’t mean to be aggressive, but I guess I dislike it when people try to argue without knowing stuff, especially when they know they don’t know stuff. Why not research it for 5 minutes then ? Ah well.
But they did. We saw many RShams. We saw a FW in top8. A Holy Priest won the whole cut playing only Holy Priest.
Well, my initial message is :
To which you immediately disagreed. But now we do agree that high rating stats show that it is bad on high rating. Mmh.
I simply opened the official ladder page and counted. We were discussing representation, it seems like the first natural thing to do to … check those numbers instead of just going off the feeling of my q sessions. You are the one who asked for them.
Eh. Maybe then, but if we start to argue over strength based on a specific rating range … doesn’t really work like that.
I’ll say it again: amongst players of seemingly equal skill, the ones playing HPal remain on lower glad rating while the ones playing any other healer besides Disc climb higher.
I’m a bit offset these days! I can work from home so I let my schedule slide a little…
That’s literally opposing your logic. That’s what I’m saying.
I was doing the same thing you did there. Are all the rest non-rdruid teams so fairplay to not use rdruid? It doesn’t work like that and you know it better than I do
Maybe there was a misunderstanding. Based on your words I do acknowledge that probably HPala is a bad choice at 3k or like very-very-very top ratings. I was talking about average player’s level or end of season glad-likeish (such as me and OP).
It kinda is. Depends on what number is assigned to a pool of stats we pull the data from. Your option - very-very-very top - HPala is bad (indeed), my option - 2400+ HPala is at least decent (indeed).
There’s no space for a good discussion in here, because your will to cheery-pick and my will to pick decent+ is subjective. Yes, hard for me to admit, but on the very top HPalas are probably bad indeed.
That only doesn’t really go along with AWC representation. Because basing on top, MWs are strong. See the thing here? You definitely do.
Good for you
I’m gonna go sleep now, it’s 10:30 PM at our place. Cheers, good talk.
EDIT:
Unfortunately for me, yes. Specs should be balanced according to top players I guess.
Hmm, it looks like there really isn’t some huge gap in strength between most of the healers. It’s just that some are more popular, and some are less. Pala and sham’s stats look even more promising
The difference between you and me is that I did not claim that RDruid was head and shoulders above everything, so you can’t really pull the Uno reverse. In fact, in my personal opinion RSham is pretty amazing right now and while RDruid is still overall better because of a few things RSham competes quite well with it. To me these two are above the rest, if that’s of any interest.
Well. If you go a bit beyond top 8, MWs (well FWs really) were actually played. It’s just that only one team with one went on stream, but two other teams were one game away from it, if you must know.
Hope you understand 
