Mythic Dungeon and Mythic+ Tuning – 7 March

Community General Discussion
1

With hotfixes that are now live, we’ve broadly reduced the difficulty of Mythic and Mythic+ dungeons. As a result of these changes, all enemy health and damage has been reduced by 10% across all Mythic dungeon difficulties, both Mythic 0 and Mythic+.

The following changes will be included with other changes in our next hotfixes update, later today:

Dungeons

  • Operation Floodgate
    • Reduced the speed of waves created by Awaken the Swamp by 25%. The movement force applied reduced by 17%.
    • Darkfuse Shredder Pilots are no longer able to melee.
    • Kinetic Explosive Gel now has a permanent 12-second duration.
    • Increased the cooldown of Surprise Inspection on Darkfuse Inspectors by 2 seconds.
    • Reduced the distance of Bubble Burp targeting to 60 yards (was 100).
    • Reduced the physical damage portion of Sludge Claws by 13%.
    • Increased the cast time of Mudslide to 3.5 seconds (was 3).
    • Reduced the physical damage of Thunder Punch by 15%.
    • Reduced the damage of Turbo Bolt by 30%.
  • Cinderbrew Meadery
    • Rowdy Patron’s Rowdy Yell damage reduced by 33%.
    • I’pa’s Spouting Stout damage reduced by 33%.
    • I’pa’s Brew Drop health reduced by 18% and movement speed reduced by 14%.
  • Darkflame Cleft
    • Ol’waxbeard’s rider melee damage reduced by 42%.
    • Wandering Candle’s Surging Flame is now removed upon Wandering Candle’s death.
  • The MOTHERLODE!!
    • Crawler Mine’s health reduced by 30% and speed reduced by 29%.
    • Off-Duty Laborer’s Throw Wrench damage reduced by 66%.
    • Coin Operated Crowd Pummeler’s Footbomb Blazing Azerite’s increase to subsequent Timed Explosions reduced by 40%. What a mouthful!
    • Azerite Extractor’s Rapid Extraction groupwide damage reduced by 25%.
    • Azerite Extractor’s Rapid Extraction missile damage reduced by 25%.
    • Mogul Razzdunk’s Gatling Gun damage reduced by 50%.
  • Operation: Mechagon – Workshop
    • Antipersonnel Squirrel’s Health reduced by 93% and can now be attacked.
    • Machinist’s Garden’s “Hidden” Flame Cannon now has a precast visual.
  • Priory of the Sacred Flame
    • Captain Dailcry’s health reduced by 11%.
    • Captain Dailcry’s Pierce Armor damage-over-time bleed reduced by 25%.
    • Captain Dailcry’s Savage Mauling and Taener Duelmal’s Ember Storm now have a 5 second shared cooldown (was 3 seconds).
    • Captain Dailcry’s Savage Mauling now ignores targets that have been hit by it within the last 35 seconds if there are other available targets.
    • High Priest Aemya health reduced by 10%.
    • Guard Captain Suleyman health reduced by 30%.
    • Forge Master Damian health reduced by 10%.
    • Heat Wave damage reduced by 25%.
    • Elaena Emberlanz health reduced by 10%.
    • Taener Duelmal health reduced 10%.
    • Sergeant Shaynemail health reduced by 10%.
    • Added Effect Mechanic Snare to Castigator’s Shield so it can be removed with Snare removals.
    • Prioress Murrpray now has an initial cooldown of 3 seconds on Holy Smite.
    • Prioress Murrpray now clears her energy upon transitioning to Phase 2.
2 Likes
2

You need to decide what you’re trying to achieve with these dungeons. If you want them to be a challenge then you need to give people time to rise to that challenge rather than just nerfing to the lowest common denominator.

Some changes are good because things were clearly overtuned (swamp tethers, rowdy patron damage, bomb health etc)

But blanket gutting 3 days in feels a bit kneejerk. On the one hand I’m glad you’re reacting quickly, on the other you tuned them badly to start with or are pandering to people who have no desire to improve and are just outraged that they depleted a +2 and what that says about them/

3 Likes
3

Pretty sure these are aimed at high keys, not low ones.

1 Like
4

Good change, the damage was insane.

I’m not gonna list everything but clearly the dungeons weren’t tested enough given you have to nerf something by almost 50% and 20-40% across the board.

And there’s still things that need massive nerfs like Mechagon’s first boss.

5

Aye. In a low key or m0, it´s just a minor nerf that makes it more accessible for casual gamers and those starting out (And, isn´t that what people supposedly want, MORE people engaging with M+? Or did the mentality shift and I misseed the memo?)

But when you get in to the +200% scaling range of actually high keys, the difference is much more noticeable, literally in many cases the difference between a straight up onehit and an “ok, I screwed up, defo not gonna stand there again”

6

Hey panicked because participation / success rate of +2 must be beyond horrible.

What is not listed here is the death timer removal from +2 - imagine how bad stats must be if they did IT on day 2 of season

7

Ok Lilith on a new char…

1 Like
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i cant figure out how to swap toons while posting from mobile phone

still doesnt work for me :frowning:

other thing is - i need new phone :stuck_out_tongue: maybe then it will be working correctly there :stuck_out_tongue: but to lazy to go buy one - xioami phones prices have dropped nicely due to new premier so might get the last seasons one - tempted to do so .

9

I don’t know.

On the one hand I guess it’s good that they looked at certain mechanics which were a bit over-tuned. On the other hand…maybe just stop over-designing these dungeons?

I don’t think the biggest problem lies in numbers, but in the sheer amount of avoidable mechanics. 5x 10y circles clustered together, into 10 chain saws, into 2 rotating flame throwers…like man…if I wanted to dance I’d have taken dance classes. That’s not fun to deal with, and such things tend to be tricky in pugs.

Just make the encounters fun, and the numbers can stay high.

1 Like
10

M+ is infinitely scaling. All this does is change what the “maximum” level will be. +20 or +30 (to give you some made up numbers).

Therefore, if any of these changes help those in the lower brackets it has ZERO impact on the higher ones. And those that want a challange still have it. Regardless of what blizzard does.

Therefore, I applaud their speed in tuning. And I hope they keep this up. I want weekly, MINIMUM tuning. From now on. I want MORE tuning. MORE class tuning. MORE dungeon tuning… that way literally every week would be a “new season”.

But basically, I refuse to wait 3 to 5 months for any changes. I am tired of that. And I am prepared to pay any price, or give in to any whiner in a +2 to acheive it. IMO the benefits outweigh the cost by a significant margin.

11

That’s a terrible approach. That way you never know what change actually does the trick, as it takes time to collect and analyse data → prepare a change → implement the change. If you do this, at a minimum, every week…then the processes will overlap.

Don’t ever do that. Twice a month, max. Any more, and the design of the dungeon was just not adequate from the start. No matter how often you tweak it…a turd will never become a golden goose.

12

Oh ! So you prefer to sit for 16 weeks with this situation ?

https://mythicstats.com/meta These are specs.

And dungeon wise, do you prefer to have 1 EZ dungeon everyone wants to do, and 2 absolutely horrible dungeons nobody wants to do ? Is that it ?

And if we go further down in the recent past of DF you agree to have exodia comp dominate the M+ scene for literally 6 months? Or DF S3 and S4… you prefer to have only ONE viable tank for 7 months streight? Or literally cry every time you got a Rise key in DF S3 because it was orders of magnitude harder than anything else… for 4 months non-stop…

You want me to go on with more examples ? Is that your alternative ?

A 5% buff/nerf to performance of specs/dungeons will not be as impactfull as you beleive. But over 3/4 weeks it will. And that is the point.

Any meta comp that is created would have a 100% guarantee to stop being meta 2/3 weeks later. THEREFORE, it would be pointless to play the Meta. It would stop existing as a concept all toguether. And that is GOOD.

Nah. I am so sorry but no. We have tried your method for years and it is beyond annoying. Sorry.

Like I said: The benefits of rapid tuning FAR outweigh any problems they create. PERIOD.

13

Where on earth did you get this from? If you can’t read, it’d be best to stay away from forums. It’s pretty much a false dichotomy.

14

I read what you said… You said this :

This is literally what they have been doing for years. And the result is :

Its literally the proff that its simply not enough. And if 8 years of data is not enough to prove that a different approach is required then I guess I dont know what else is.

Then you should start reading. I will make it easy for you:

Rapid tuning will have an effect ? SURE. But it will be better than what we have now. Because doing the exact same thing they are doing now expecting different results is the defenition of insanity.

Get it now? :slight_smile:

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So read again, I literally said that they then should design the dungeons differently…jeez. Make sure that we don’t start with a turd.

No, because it’ll result in a horrendous experience.

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Im sure that the hundreds of different dungeons they made in 8 years proves my point. They tried different designs and options through the years…

And you can tune specs, but also dungeons. Weekly.

But they dont. They sit there “looking at data” as you suggest and the result is still the same: Months with out changes to dungeons.

In S1… did you see any nerfs to SV? Why did we have to wait 2/3 months to stitchflesh nerfs? …

Better than stagnation. Much better. That was my point.

But either way. They are already doing what you say. And I can see the results with my own eyes. I dont need extra data… And neither should you. You see the results as well I do so I should not have to explain myself.

You have to understand that the ammount of variables in this game are impossible to manage or predict. Dungeons that are hard now (with people at 630 ivlish) will become easier when most people are sitting with 649 ilvl in about 2 months.

Some specs are bad now (like Fire Mage compared to Frost) but with 649 and tier set they catch up significantly. So right now FMage is good, FireMage is bad. And in 1/2 months it will be the inverse.

And these changes will not happen in 1 day. They will be a progressive change.

So you need progressive tunning. Not 1 big patch every 3/4 months (if anything at all).

And that is why your “ideaology” is not realistic. And that is why it hasent worked for years.

And to be honest, Blizzard is made of people. They will make mistakes.

I prefer for them to do mistakes weekly, but correct them weekly. Rather than to do 1 mistake and we all have to wait 5 months for them to fix it.

Or sometimes more than months. YEARS…

17

Barely. They just added more and more mechanics to avoid or deal with. Heck, they even re-introduced old dungeons…with 80% the same mechanics. They don’t try anything different, it’s just more, and more, and more. And more is not always better.

This season is 1 week and 3 days old?, and the first big nerf is in. This is more in line of what you describe than what I described.

First: No need to have >= 1 tuning per week to handle that. We don’t gain 10 ilvls per week on average.

Second: they design the dungeons, purposefully, with so many variables. They can reduce it. But they rather have a whole circus style of mechanics going on, then wonder why they need to tune a dozen of things, than just have a simple but fun base and only need to turn 2 buttons instead of 35 for one dungeon.

I don’t. Because…realistically a season doesn’t last 5 months. More like 8-10 weeks tops. By then the activity goes down and the season has come to an end.

In other words, they need to get it right in the first ± 3 weeks, otherwise the experience for the vast ‘majority’ for that season was shot to … anyways. So sure, in the beginning of the season they should be on top of it. But if it’s not right after 2 weeks…it was just a terrible dungeon design. Period.

What I argue is not that they shouldn’t tune more often. It’s that they should overhaul their design philosophy.

18

OK. Let me get this streight. This is what you said:

Dungeons that had “less” years ago did not fix the issue.
Dungeons that have “more” today did not fix the issue.

Dungeons that were easier did not fix the issue.
Dungeons that were harder did not fix the issue.

Revamping old dungeons did not fix the issue.
Making new dungeons did not fix the issue.

…

So nothing fixed the issue… We STILL have it… for 8 years streight.

Did I understand you correctly there?

There were also tunning runs 1st week of S1 WW. And S4 of DF. And S3 of DF. And …

But then… they stop. For some reason. And many times the “reason” is blatantly obvious: RTWF and/or MDI. What a COINCIDENCE. They can fool me once. They cant fool me every single expansion since Legion.

And others, it isent. WHY in gods name did we have to wait for these nerfs NOW. Why not 1 month into S1 ? WHY ?

No we dont. But you do have the average DPS of say… a ret paladin vs. a affliction warlock. Ret - 5% affliction +5%. Next week review and repeat. Maybe rets and afflis were too much, so Ret +2% and affli -2%. Rince and repeat. With all specs and dungeons.

And that considers whatever increase in ilvl people might have. 1 ilvl, 0, or 500 ilvl. Its built into this. Especially if on top you use popularity metrics.

Its not about mechanics.

How about this: A boss is one-shotting people. And they are afraid that a -30% nerf will trivialize it.

Why not cap the damage to maximum 80% of a players HP. DONE. Oh no ! 80% is too much ! So nerf it to 75%.

I argue that people leave BECAUSE it becomes stale.

19

In all fairness, I don’t even know what you refer to as “the issue”. I don’t think “the issue” has been exactly the same for 8 years…has it?

This isn’t even anything official. They don’t skip tuning for that. Quite the opposite…they use the RTWF as “test” to see if they do need to make adjustments. They’re nothing but test dummies.

Yeah, this whole concept is a bit of anti-WoW tbh. And postponing tuning for it, is a wrong move.

The reality is too complex to be able to do this very successfully. Plain percentage buffs is a sign of lost control of the design, nothing else. The fact that they had to do that to the health and damage, by 10%, now…is not a very good sign. It only means that their goal and the reality were completely different.

Then you only remove the need to use defensives. What’s the point in that? That’s weird.

What they should do, however, is make sure such busters do not overlap with a weird affix or any unavoidable high hitting abilities.

Every season always becomes stale. It’s the same 8 dungeons, players reach their personal limit relatively fast, it’s just how it is. Having an always-changing difficulty / power is not making it less stale, just leads to a less predictable output…which directly and negatively affects one’s sense of player growth.

20

Stagnation. Weeks and weeks with the same meta comp. With no tuning. With the same dungeons, with their same issues. For WEEKs.

I stated the most recent example: S1 of WW. It had things that were not OK. You agree yes?

The “issue” is that we had to wait 5 months for S2 to arrive to get them fixed. WHY ? And the issues of S1 that were fixed (NW stitchflesh for example) took literal months to be dressed. WHY ?

And this is recurrent “issue” I am talking about.

Do you really need test dummies in a Raid to see that some bosses/trash in M+ are over/under tuned? Or that some specs overperform more than others?

After having done the “fish” mob of the new dungeon “floodgate” on a +6 in a Tyranical week I can already tell you that next week (fortified) it will be a nightmare to do.

Do they need Raiders to tell them that? And for how long will we have to wait untill they address that 1 mob (or not, I might be wrong). You understand what my “issue” is here?

They always failed. For 8 years. And they tried many times.

The reality is: Blizzard is made up of people. Expecting them to do everything perfect from the get-go is the “goal” that is unacheivable. And not only at launch. But every single patch and changne they do.

But either way. Its better than to leave things as they are for months. Like I said: Frequent % changes will not make things magically work. It will just be better than doing nothing at all.

You want to keep the use of defensives? Cap the damage to 110%. Or 120% not more.

If you dont use defensives, you die. If you do, you survive.

But there wont be a key level after which it will 1-shot you regardless of what you do.

You are right. “Its just how it is”.

But it should not. And the response to staleness is to “mix” things. Its in the word itself.