Quel’dorei High Elves as an Alliance allied race - 2024 (Part 1)

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

The blood elves joining the horde and parting with humans was a perfect storm, a large part of it was definately the aid from the forsaken, I am fully convinced (= read this as an opinion) that if not for the help of the forsaken, the Blood Elves would not have been able to ‘hold the line’ and we’d now be calling Quel’thalas something more along the lines of Northern Plaguelands.

I think absolutely that Garithos played a role tho, sure for us the players its easy to look at the story from a top down perspective where we have all the pieces of the board in view at all times, but what would the average belf on the ground have known? that a human representative of the alliances remnants tried to have the last line of their royal family executed for choosing questionable allies over death by scourge as we see in the missions where first we repair the observatories and then fight off the undead in WC3:TFT

In the same way that helves would look at it and go what do you mean join the horde that attacked our homeland, while whats really happening is that we’re not talking about the same horde, Grommash sacrificed himself for a new beginning and Thrall forged a new path for the orcs, but how is the average high elf exile supposed to know this? the only logical answer is, they’re not.

Therefor I think its actually pretty cool that they show that ingame both sides of the spectrum are sort of right, but only because they don’t have the full picture. I like that blood elves can go BUT GARITHOS at high elves who can then go BUT ORCS back.

[Thuzar-argent-dawn (Thuzar)]

@Kiryanor-grim-batol

Hard to say where both Draenei and Belf stories start exactly

I did some digging on this exact thing not to long ago and came to the conclusion both stories take place before the opening of the dark portal.
The draenei story on azuremyst alone is 2 weeks with no word on how long bloodmyst took, we know this because an npc in the introduction to the Bloodmyst part of the leveling experience mentions its been 2 weeks since the crash (even though you can power level straight from the crash site in a day).
The blood elf story if I recall picks up after keal’thas have taken control of the dreanei ships and thus after the exodar crash. He would recently have sent back the green crystals making them a relative new fixture upon your characters creation.
At this point they are isolated and not part of the horde, the entire eversong woods and ghostland leveling experience is an unknown time frame but it ends with the blood elves sending an envoy to Sylvanas who then sends them onwards to the rest of the horde. Thus the blood elves became horde members only after the end of their leveling experience.
They did however remain loyal to keal’thas until the fury of the sunwell patch, so in a weird way keal’thas was their racial leader until the end of TBC, you can argue they weren’t officially horde members because keal’thas never signed off on it, and only after he was replaced fully by the region lord did they become actual members of the horde, but thats a whole other discussion.

TBC lore is messy, because you don’t feel the massive time skips or notice the larger events as a player and they are poorly explained.

[Aemilia-darkmoon-faire]

@Kiryanor-grim-batol

And it’s still not enough for you is it? You won’t be happy till you either get your Carbon copy of Blood Elves in Alliance or be able to absolutely erase “Void” from your existing alliance elf and have the game recognize that.

No. When I’m at a restaurant and I ask for a fried chicken with a side of fries and I get a grilled chicken with a side of potato wedges, I’m going to politely tell the staff that they got my order wrong and that I want what I asked for.

Or if I ask for a chocolate ice cream and I get a nutella ice cream, I’m going to say “nutella is nice, but I asked for chocolate”

Now, you may retort that in some establishments you simply take it on the chin and move on, but those places are usually the 2am after drinks kebab stands after you’re out at night. Blizzard, in my opinion, is a high class restaurant with a reputation to uphold. and I expect better from places like these.

And it bears repeating, I don’t want blood elf features. I want new features like braids or tattoos that High Elves have preserved but blood elves haven’t.

And again, adding a suite of customisation doesn’t destroy the race. People still like playing regular, Naaru-fearing Draenei in spite of Man’ari being added. Ditto with Blood Elves and Void Elves with Darkfallen.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Aemilia-darkmoon-faire

And it bears repeating, I don’t want blood elf features. I want new features like braids or tattoos that High Elves have preserved but blood elves haven

None of those are unique to Alliance High Elves.

[Senti-die-aldor]

@Aemilia-darkmoon-faire

Or if I ask for a chocolate ice cream and I get a nutella ice cream, I’m going to say “nutella is nice, but I asked for chocolate”

Yeah, but… to be fair, the dish you ordered was never on the menu, they sold it decades ago when they were still a hot dog stand.

I also like to eat there and I’d love to see the dish return some day, … but that’s just that, a wish. I’m not entitled to get what I want, but I can keep wishing.

@Kaeros-dentarg

None of those are unique to Alliance High Elves.

She’s saying that she’s not asking for the Blood Elf customization specifically, that it’s not about “getting what the Blood Elves have right now”.
Just as there are different hairstyles for VE and BE, they could expand on that with stuff that is exclusive for Blood Elves and styles that are only for Void Elf / Quel’dorei representation on the Alliance side.

[Linir-twisting-nether (Linir)]

@Senti-die-aldor

Yeah, but… to be fair, the dish you ordered was never on the menu,

Oh bu its on the menu. Every time you look at it, its there, just some people saying that Nutella is the same as Chocolate.

So we will keep wishing. No harm done.

[Linir-twisting-nether (Linir)]

@Aemilia-darkmoon-faire

want new features like braids or tattoos that High Elves have preserved but blood elves haven’t.

I have suggested to make HE more rugged, and BE more cosmopolitan.

So HE would have tattoos, scars, braids, BE could have more jewelry, fancier haircuts for example.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Senti-die-aldor

She’s saying that she’s not asking for the Blood Elf customization specifically, that it’s not about “getting what the Blood Elves have right now”.
Just as there are different hairstyles for VE and BE, they could expand on that with stuff that is exclusive for Blood Elves and styles that are only for Void Elf / Quel’dorei representation on the Alliance side.

There is nothing an Alliance High Elf could have that a Blood Elf would not be able to have. Hence it is not a point of differentiation. Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/High Elves by void infusion and physical transformation.

Alliance High Elves cannot be differentiated by an afternoon at the stylist.

[Senti-die-aldor]

@Kaeros-dentarg

There is nothing an Alliance High Elf could have that a Blood Elf would not be able to have.

We’ve been over this. By your logic, you’d have to ask why Void Elves do not have the exact same hairstyles or accessoires as Blood Elves; after all, the majority of them were Blood Elves and also knew their style. So your argument goes both ways, because it bascially implies that the Ren’dorei should also have access to every Blood Elven (hair)style.

That said, the Blood Elves don’t even have access to most of the Void Elf hairstyles, vice versa. Therefore, it would also be legitimate to have HE with different styles and options.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Senti-die-aldor

We’ve been over this. By your logic, you’d have to ask why Void Elves do not have the exact same hairstyles or accessoires as Blood Elves; after all, the majority of them were Blood Elves and also knew their style. So your argument goes both ways, because it bascially implies that the Ren’dorei should also have access to every Blood Elven (hair)style.

That said, the Blood Elves don’t even have access to most of the Void Elf hairstyles.

Hairstyles are not an issue, they may come at some point, they may not. Same for jewelry.

But these accentuate current differences, they are not a substitute for it. The key difference is that Void Elves are void infused mutants, and Blood Elves are standard high elves.

True differentiation is the substance. The only way an Alliance High Elf could be meaningfully differentiated from a Blood Elf is if they stopped being an Alliance High Elf. That is the logic that led to Void Elves at the end of the day. And it is also why accessorisation is suggested as a solution, and a very bad solution at that. Because proponents cannot bear to meaningfully change the substance, they are reduced to surface-level, cosmetic alteration suggestions to manufacture differentiation, but completely miss the point as a result.

[Senti-die-aldor]

@Kaeros-dentarg

The key difference is that Void Elves are void infused mutants, and Blood Elves are standard high elves.

Void infused - yes. Mutants - no; only the first bunch under Umbric was mutated by a prolonged exposure; storywise, they were the exception of the rule, an accident, something that Alleria made clear in the very intro of the Allied Race.

@Kaeros-dentarg

True differentiation is the substance. The only way an Alliance High Elf could be meaningfully differentiated from a Blood Elf is if they stopped being an Alliance High Elf.

Or fully embraced it by creating new stories for them, together with the Ren’dorei. We already see the Silver Covenant working with them in Midnight. As I said, I don’t need a “High Elf” name tag, I’m fine with both factions being represented in the engine race of the Ren’dorei (just like the way it works with Dwarves and Draenei). I mean, I would love it if they gave players an option to toggle the void procc into an arcane procc, but… I don’t think it’s that problematic. I’m happy to take them as a compromise - because no matter how often people will mention that they should be “void-themed only” - a compromise is what they are! Without the demand for Alliance High Elves, they wouldn’t exist.

Hell, before chronicles and the UVG, nobody really cared about the void, people assumed the Light’s natural enemy were Undead and Chaos and we weren’t even sure if “Shadow” and “Void” were the same thing.
They used the Void Elves to give this magic a real face.

So as usual, it all depends on what Blizzard does with the story.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Senti-die-aldor

Void infused - yes. Mutants - no; only the first bunch under Umbric was mutated by a prolonged exposure; storywise, they were the exception of the rule, an accident, something that Alleria made clear in the very intro of the Allied Race.

They were changed by a massive infusion of void energy directed by an Ethereal, not prolonged exposure. Every Void Elf is a void mutant. For proof, go outside Stormwind, find a Defias NPC carrying a dagger and allow yourself to be stabbed. Even the fair skinned ones bleed purple. In no version of the intro does it imply that you are anything other than a void mutant.

Alleria Windrunner**:** The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons… and lured even the titans’ own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed… to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us… changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world… and defend the Alliance!

Even their character creation description says they have been ‘Transformed by forbidden magic’. No other Void Elf comes across as anything other than a void mutant.

The process to create new Void Elves was replicated. We know this due to Ennas the Faithfallen and Lyria Skystrider now being Void Elves. There are Blood Elves and (should be) High Elf Wayfarers in Telrogus learning to wield the void, they are not marked as Void Elves as they have not undergone the process. They are preparing to do so.

@Senti-die-aldor

Or fully embraced it by creating new stories for them, together with the Ren’dorei.

No other allied race in the game is predicated on having a different story. All allied races are predicated on a unique origin that provided meaningful differentiation. In the case of the Void Elves, it is void infusion.

[Linir-twisting-nether (Linir)]

@Kaeros-dentarg

Every Void Elf is a void mutant.

True. Thats why we want High Elves.

@Kaeros-dentarg

The Void has shaped us… changed us.

Spot on.

@Kaeros-dentarg

Even their character creation description says they have been ‘Transformed by forbidden magic’. No other Void Elf comes across as any other than a void mutant.

True, hence why, again, we want High Elves.

@Kaeros-dentarg

In the case of the Void Elves, it is void infusion.

True.

And in the case of High Elves is the lack of exposure to fel and void, and in some cases the lack or arcane altogether.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

Which then falls foul of the fact Blood Elves are High Elves, that the Blood Elven aesthetic is the High Elven aesthetic, that the Blood Elven culture is the High Elven culture and that there is a High Elf option in game, just not on the faction you want as it is an intrinsic and iconic part of the Horde faction.

[Senti-die-aldor]

@Kaeros-dentarg

They were changed by a massive infusion of void energy directed by an Ethereal, not prolonged exposure.

The physical mutation (that Umbric and his people were going through) is extraordinary and not normal. Alleria literally says to the player: “We must stop this transformation, before my people are lost.” She doesn’t say “Just 20 more second, until you hear a ‘bing’, then they are exactly right!”

@Kaeros-dentarg

Even their character creation description says they have been ‘Transformed by forbidden magic’. No other Void Elf comes across as any other than a void mutant.

That does not necessarily mean that you need to see this mutation permanently on the character model. Just look at Alleria, the original Void-Elf who absorbed a Void god and kept her untainted High Elf looks.

@Kaeros-dentarg

No other allied race in the game is predicated on having a different story. All allied races are predicated on a unique origin that provided meaningful differentiation. In the case of the Void Elves, it is void infusion.

Yes, some of them don’t even have a story (Looking at you, Vulpera).
Face it, whatever “Allied Races” argument you’re trying to make here, it has already been overthrown by the sheer madness of introductions and options. Dark Iron Dwarves and Wildhammer Dwarves have been in the Alliance for decades before they became finally playable, Draenei players can be lightforged warlocks and Man’ari demons, Gnomes can be cyborgs, Horde and Alliance Elves can be Darkfallen and brown-skinned Orcs came from a freaking other universe just to be playable.
“Hi, I’m Vereesa, these are my Quel’dorei, we’ve been here for decades and these are our magic runes and tattoos.” wouldn’t even make it into the top 3 of the list.

@Kaeros-dentarg

Which then falls foul of the fact Blood Elves are High Elves, that the Blood Elven aesthetic is the High Elven aesthetic, that the Blood Elven culture is the High Elven culture and that there is a High Elf option in game, just not on the faction you want as it is an intrinsic and iconic part of the Horde faction.

Add to that, that Void Elves are basically also High Elves and there’s nothing stopping them from using their original colors.

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

@Kiryanor-grim-batol

Though I believe the release of the Sunreavers that were imprisoned in Violet Hold was never mentioned so we don’t know how many were and died there.

It´s safe to assume they were released after MoP, as Lor´themar was planning to negotiate it with Jaina as part of the post-war armistice treaties.

And, given how Sunreavers were actively working on returning to Dalaran by Legion only 2 years later and were eventually allowed in, I doubt the canon story would have their people being mistreated by Kirin Tor and dying in their prison in time of peace between factions.

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Senti-die-aldor

The physical mutation (that Umbric and his people were going through) is extraordinary and not normal. Alleria literally says to the player: “We must stop this transformation, before my people are lost.” She doesn’t say “Just 20 more second, until you hear a ‘bing’, then they are exactly right!”

The Ethereal was trying to turn them into something far worse than what they ended up being. The process was interrupted. And replicable.

@Senti-die-aldor

That does not necessarily mean that you need to see this mutation permanently on the character model. Just look at Alleria, the original Void-Elf who absorbed a Void god and kept her untainted High Elf look

Alleria is the exception, not other Void Elves, and it is a weird kind of logic to cite the exception to the rule as somehow proving the rule is the exception. She came by her powers by devouring that Void Naaru, nobody else did so.

@Senti-die-aldor

Yes, some of them don’t even have a story (Looking at you, Vulpera).

The Vulpera storyline is explored in Vol’Dun as part of the Horde BFA campaign.

@Senti-die-aldor

Face it, whatever “Allied Races” argument you’re trying to make here, it has already been overthrown by the sheer madness of introductions and options. Dark Iron Dwarves and Wildhammer Dwarves have been in the Alliance for decades before they became finally playable, Draenei players can be lightforged warlocks and Man’ari demons, Gnomes can be cyborgs, Horde and Alliance Elves can be Darkfallen and brown-skinned Orcs came from a freaking other universe just to be playable.

The Wildhammer Dwarves are not an Allied race and are biologically identical to Bronzebeard Dwarves.

The Dark Iron Dwarves were NOT in the Alliance for decades (the fact you say they were makes me ask are you sure your grip on the lore is as strong as you think it is?). The Dark Iron Dwarves only joined the Alliance in the run up to the Cataclysm when the Council of the Three Hammers was formed and only became a playabe Allied race in BFA.

The Man’ari Draenei are repentant, as showing by their Blessed by the Naaru racial meaning they are on the same path as other Draenei.

Cyborg Gnomes ARE differentiated from their parent race, hence why they are an allied race.

The Darkfallen share their racials with the rest of their people, hence why they are counted under that race. Void Elf Darkfallen are resurrected Void Elves.

Brown Skinned Orcs, the Mag’har, are not the variant. It is the green-skinned, fel corrupted Orcs (who in an example of what REAL fel corruption looks like, actually drank the stuff) who are the variant. But because those are the Orcs who came first and because they are the dominant group now, they have primacy.

None of your examples hold up to even the barest level of scrutiny.

@Senti-die-aldor

Add to that, that Void Elves are basically also High Elves and there’s nothing stopping them from using their original colors.

Void Elves are a variant due to their void infusion.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Kaeros-dentarg

@Senti-die-aldor

Add to that, that Void Elves are basically also High Elves and there’s nothing stopping them from using their original colors.

Void Elves are a variant due to their void infusion.

Same reason why Lightforged Draenei and regular Draenei aren’t the same.

It’s like comparing a regular trained Marine to a Spartan from Halo. The former is a human with extensive training. The later is a human with extensive training + multiple, deep running DNA alterations to basically evolve said individual 2-3x beyond the capabilities of a normal human.

Spartans in Halo (at least Gen 2 and Gen 3) are basically a different evolutionary state (which is what the entire Spartan program originally was about, evolving human children forward to become the ultimate soldiers against Insurrectionists by increasing their phsyical strength, bone density, muscle density, reflexes, biological systems and on top of that they wear a highly advanced Set of Power Armor, that would break any normal humans bones at the slightest muscle flex - yes, that’s literally canon from Halo: The Fall of Reach. Fortunately the Covenant showed up and united Humanity temporarily against the Aliens).

But alas, I digress. Fact is, Blood/High-Elves and Void Elves aren’t the same species really anymore. They are a sub-type. The same way the Lightforged, Man’ari and Krokuul are sub-types of the Eredar (Draenei to be precise).

And people won’t accept that regarding High Elves, because they are stuck in this stubborn thinking of “if we complain loud and long enough, Blizzard will retcon years of lore for us”.

Edit: It is already concerning that Blizzard allows Void Elves to become Paladins in Midnight (seasons). There are datamined Paladin mount chargers as effects for Kul Tirans (yay!) and Void Elves (meh).

[Kaeros-dentarg]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

And people won’t accept that regarding High Elves, because they are stuck in this stubborn thinking of “if we complain loud and long enough, Blizzard will retcon years of lore for us”.

There are people making that argument in recent weeks, others were making that argument during the void elf backlash eight years ago. Blizzard provided normal skin tones and there hasn’t been any other movement since, nor should we expect any if Alliance High Elves are not happening in Midnight.

The objective truth is that Void Elves bound Blizzard’s hands. Even if they wanted to, which they don’t, they probably wouldn’t be able to explain to the vast majority of the playerbase uninterested in this debate why they just added a duplicate of an existing race to the game.

What they will do is make a big deal of High Elves for the Alliance being in Classic+. Something which wouldn’t have the oomph of being a major selling point when announced next year if they were available in retail. Classic+ of course is not the real game though.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Kaeros-dentarg

What they will do is make a big deal of High Elves for the Alliance being in Classic+. Something which wouldn’t have the oomph of being a major selling point when announced next year if they were available in retail. Classic+ of course is not the real game though.

Tbh, I am totally fine with Blizzard branching off from Retails timeline with Classic+

Let’s be honest, it’s their solely IP with established Timewalkers and different Timelines even. It makes 0 sense that they didn’t make an “alternate timeline” canon for a “What IF” type of game.

Imagine for example a completely different canon for Arthas as Lich King, where after Wrath of the Lich King the story turns out differently, allowing them to tell a better story going forward specifically regarding Arthas/Crown of Domination, etc. Or for example a different Version of Garrosh Hellscream, who doesn’t fall to madness and actually follows the (quite liked) idea of Afrasabi(?) to make Garrosh into this super-honor driven Orc Leader like he was in earlier stories before MoP.

I would pay and play for that tbh. And I hate classic gameplay because it’s too slow for me during leveling due to me playing faster games since years.