Quel’dorei High Elves as an Alliance allied race (Part 1)

Community General Discussion
950

Yeah, and -then- came over to make sure that said life for themselves elsewhere was not possible later on.

The Night Elves were trying to destroy the Arcane sanctums and leystones…

Not really stretching a word, if you are using the dictionary definition -of- the word, though is it?

Actually it is… I mean it is, that is literally one of the conditions of genocide, and why it is forbidden under the laws pertaining to War Crimes. We know that the same definition ascribes to Azeroth, as it is one of the charges Garrosh faces.

That’s a grey area, I’ll grant you. If the people killed were all targeted and killed -because- they were all American, or, I don’t know, -because- they were all Christian then that would indeed class as an act of Genocide, however whilst the attack was on American soil, people of various nationalities worked there, and various faiths (Including the nationality and religion of the architect of the act) It was not targeting a single ethnic group or religion -because- of that ethnic group or religion. To take a briefly personal take on this, my parents were actually in America, and were supposed to be having an early brunch at the restaurant at the top of the Twin Towers on 9/11, (or 11/9 if you’re a Brit) by fate’s fortune their plane was diverted, due to the attack happening at the very time, (Lots of airports were switched around and locked down, fortunately we had family over there who were able to sort them out after a 7 hour drive!) and whilst their holiday was very weird, they were never in danger. But that would have meant that it was an attack an Irishwoman Catholic, a Scottish Protestant male, Americans of various faiths including Islam, Sikhs and Jewish people, at least one English Atheist that I know of, and people from India, Saudi Arabia, and countless other countries and creeds.

That is why it has the more appropriate name of a “Terrorist” act, rather than a Genocidal Act, as ultimately, those people were targeted for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, -not- because of their nation, ethnicity, politics, religion, gender or anything, just for their geographical location.

Genocide is where one or more of those factors is the -defining- characteristic of the people so being killed.

The Purge was genocidal, That’s just a thing. Whether it was Dalaran, Shattrath or Quel’thalas itself, if you target a large amount of people based -purely- on specific factors, it is an act of Genocide. -Complete- Genocide is what you are thinking of, where it is the destruction of a race entire. No one in our world has been in a position to carry that out, even the hideous regime that industrialised the process in World War II could only commit the act upon those within their reach, not those in far away countries, or those countries opposing them.

Exactly the same applies to Dalaran. That was within Jaina’s -reach-, and she set loose Vereesa and her War Crims. Silvermoon was -not- within her reach.

Doesn’t make it less genocidal…

Well, oddly, just on that last one, you do actually get attacked by the Night Elven saboteur from which you get the incriminating letter, you are at the time a Blood Elf going about your legal business in your own country, and the stealthed Kaldorei does not ask if you are currently in the employ of the nation’s military forces, they just attack and try to kill you, so -technically- Yeah, they were actually just summarily killing civilians, or rather, not stopping to make the distinction…

Remember TBC happened in a bit of a bubble (Similar to the Worgen starting zone, which actually spans a fair bit of time, with cuts to the future (Mainly because after your character actually becomes a Feral, and is eventually captured, you have no idea what time has passed. (Its likely to be a few years, but never specified, its not like the Goblin zone, which all takes place during Cata)

The reason I say to remember that, is that the learned technique of draining Mana from living creatures for survival is -still- in the process of being taught. I mean you do actually get the end of that teaching process as the Blood Elf player character “A Thirst Unending” I think is the quest, or at least some of the quest text. So they were still pretty dependent upon those arcane sources of power that had not been destroyed by the Scourge. Arcane sources of power the Kaldorei waltzed in and started to destroy…

Come on, a -lot- of Blood Elves would have died, had they been successful, and the Kaldorei even -knew- what they were doing, as the captured documents in Eversong and Ghostlands show. They -knew- what they were doing, and what the outcome could be.

That…Is attempted Genocide.

Nope. Only 1. Remember we’re talking Elves here, they are arrogant and self centred, and don’t care that much about non-eves.

The Troll Wars was Amani vs Elves and later, Humans. Not the Horde.

The attack on Quel’thalas with Amani allies -was- however, the Old Horde (I swear the Horde has had more rebranding than Nike, or Coca Cola).

There were no Tauren, no Darkspear, in fact the -only- race in the current Horde line up, was Orcs. Old Orcs. Very Old Orcs now, mostly dead and gone.

So that is strike 1 against the Horde. Those Orcs. Mostly now dead or tottering around on Azerothian Zimmer Frames.

Fast forwards to the Third War. Quel’thalas isn’t initially that bothered, until Arthas starts going nuts. If the dumb humans had listened to the Elves, and Gilneas and Stromgarde there wouldn’t even -be- a Horde right now. Well done Terenas, you muppet.

Then it all goes wrong. Now lets not make the stupid mistake of going “Arthas was a human Prince and did the Scourge thing to Quel’thalas” because that really makes no sense. And it does make no sense. However here is the kicker. For us to say that ‘makes no sense, because he was not acting under his free will’ then we have to apply the same rules to the Horde version that attacked Quel’thalas, who were themselves, also pawns. So if we can’t include Arthas as having narked the elves off (Which I personally agree we shouldn’t) then we can’t even count the Second War Horde -either- for the exact same reason. So either way, this means either the Horde are back down to 0 Elf-hate points, or both Horde and Alliance are on +1 Elf hate points.

So then we get ya Boy Garithos. Garithos is mental. His rationale for hating Elves stands up to no reason whatsoever. If I go to the shops, and whilst I am at the shops, a visibly distinct streetgang break into my house, murder my kin and burn the place down, is it more reasonable to blame a)The Streetgang that burst into my house when I was not there, killed my family and burned it down? or b) The Shop that I chose to go to because I wanted to?

That’s Garithos’ mentality. He blames the Elves, for the Scourge killing his family -because- he was in Elven lands at the time, fighting the Scourge…

Once you realise how utterly delusional that character is, it starts to make more sense.

The Blood Elves were reeling, they’d just lost their Sun King, their Sunwell, 90% of their entire -Species- due to treachery (Just to clarify, to our historical knowledge, no such nation on earth has ever suffered such a massive catastrophe in terms of percentages lost. Blizzard throw these numbers around, without realising how absolutely mind-shatteringly destructive that would be to a people, I mean even take the UK, which is the 32nd most densely populated nation in the world, 3rd in Europe, only Belgium and the Netherlands are higher, and that is -including- city states like Vatican City when I say 32nd, Now Imagine that happened, and only one member of the Royal Family survived. Like them or not, that is massively important. Now imagine keeping fighting, despite the population of the country now being only 6.6 million (In our terms I would be the only human being left alive within about a hundred square miles) Now imagine the power bloc you are working with wants to ceremonially execute that last royal, and about 15% of the remaining population -despite you being on their side.

Tell me that wouldn’t seem like the most grotesque act to finish you off?

That’s what Othmar Garithos planned to do.

Alliance of Lordaeron, or Grand Alliance, that is going to cause massive grievance, especially for a race that lives a long time.

-Then- it transpires that Ironforge, who you never really had a beef with, are spying on you, and sharing notes with the Kaldorei, who you haven’t had a beef with for more than 7,000 years, and that you learn that the Kaldorei, who are part of this -new- Alliance, are trying to sabotage the water supply, so you have no water,

That’s a colossal thing! That is again, attempting to finish you off, when the cosmos has just given you an almighty kicking!

That’s how drastic this sense of betrayal would be.

(I know that was a lot of words, but meh, that’s just how I am)

Actually you are wrong, Blood and High Elves are closer to the traditional elves of our myths and legends than Night Elves are.

That’s fine in the Warcraft universe, which works differently, but people need to stop with this new whitewashed version of what Elves are like, which only originated in the last century. Blood Elves in particular are actually the closest, followed by Void Elves, then High Elves, then Night Elves.

Did you mean to say, the Horde got a race that was not playable on either faction?

Simplest way to look at this, whilst being lore correct, is the following. “All Blood Elves are High Elves, Not all High Elves are Blood Elves” That’s the simple fact of the matter.

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951

You have no evidence to support this as an act of genocide. Other than what seems to be your biases.

You must remember that place a lot different than I Brig…
I remember the Night Elves sabotaging a building, then trying to use the Arcane thingymajigs in the Ghostlands to spy. Not create a Death Ray to annihilate Silvermoon City or whatever you seem to believe they were up to.

Quote from a questigiver related to this:

Their moon crystals are scrying devices—they’re going to spy on us! I know that An’daroth can’t provide enough power for that, but An’owyn, directly to the south, most definitely can!

I can’t find any evidence to support your claim that they knew they were going to cause a lot of problems related to the mana addiction by sabotaging this building though.

When you’re applying to to everything done against Blood Elves to paint every single hostile act committed against them as genocidal, then yes, yes it is.

No, it’s not genocidal…

First of all, we don’t even know precisely what kind of “Rules of War” they got in Azeroth. But using ours, then executing military forces is not considered an act of genocide.
It’s a war crime, yes, but not genocidal. In Garithos’ case you might even add the charge of “Hate crime” on top of it.
But it is not genocidal unless you can prove that Garithos’ master plan was to cause the downfall of the entire Blood Elven race.

Genocide can be a war crime.
But war crime isn’t automatically genocide.

Intent is very important when you’re trying to decide whether an act is genocidal or not.
If executing Kael’thas and his military forces resulted in a chain reaction that ultimately ended with the effective extinction of the High/Blood Elves, then I’d call it an “unintentional genocide” at best.
But if Garithos’ intent was to exterminate the elves, then his act of executing the elves under his command would be a genocidal one.

In a theoretical setting: someone could be a mass-murdering dictator in country A, who executes every soldier he captures from country B who are very different culturally.
Then his intent has a lot to say whether his acts are genocidal.
If his intent is to eradicate or assimilate every person in country B, then his acts are genocidal. Killing the soldiers is a part of a greater goal.
If his intent is just to execute every soldier he comes across to prove a point, then it’s not a genocide. But rather a massacre.

Good to hear that your family wasn’t harmed in that incident.

They were most definitely targeted because they were Americans. And even if the entire tower had been packed with nothing but Americans it wouldn’t be a genocidal attack.

Genocide implies that your goal is to completely annihilate the opposition based on their race, religion, ethnicity etc.

And insane as they may have been, the architects behind 9/11 were very well aware that they weren’t going to annihilate the US any time soon.
The attack was a political statement of more or less: “Leave us be, or more attacks like this will come!” It was revenge and a warning. A massacre, not a genocide.

In Osama Bin Laden’s November 2002 “Letter to America”, he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda’s motives for their attacks, blaming the “Zionist crusader alliance and their collaborators” for aggression against Muslims in many countries including Somalia, Bosnia Herzegovina, and the Qana massacre in Lebanon. He includes atrocities committed by Russian forces in Chechnya and Indian forces in Kashmir and Assam.
Other grievances that were mentioned by Bin Laden include the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. US support of Israel and sanctions against Iraq.

You forget one important detail when it comes to a true genocide.

The goal has to be the complete extermination of a people, based on their race, ethnicity, religion etc.

UN defines it as such:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The goal is what is important here Brig. The goal of the Third Reich was to completely annihilate the Jewish people. Of course they could target only those within their reach. To claim anything else would be silly.
But in a world where the Germans won the war, and made nation after nation obey their laws, do you think they would be content with killing only the jewish people they could find within the European borders?

The reason I am reluctant to label the Purge as genocidal is because the perpetrators and the victims were the exact same race.
Their culture is identical, their language is identical, the only difference between them is political.
And killing groups based on their political leanings is not defined as genocide under any definition.
It’s political persecution.
And the end goal of the Purge was not the complete eradication of the Blood Elven people. It was revenge. Pure and simple.
Revenge because the Sunreavers claim to neutrality was broken, unwittingly or not.
Of course it’s a crime and the result was a massacre of innocents.

But it’s not a genocide.

If it had been a bunch of humans butchering elves because they were elves, it would be different.

Yes, you are attacked when you’re investigating. And you can be a civilian for all they know.
Doesn’t make it genocidal.
That is akin to US Special Forces killing a single civilian when they are behind enemy lines on missions, so that the civilian in question won’t report their position.
It’s unethical and a war crime, but not a genocide.
The goal at that point is to remain secret, not kill an entire people.

Of course a lot of Blood Elves would have died. But I am not convinced that the Night Elves knew what they were doing and I seriously doubt they were sent there with written orders to “Kill every single Thalassian Elf in existence, stomp on the babies too just to make sure!”.
And seeing as the Night Elves haven’t touched Arcane magic in ten thousand years, I doubt they are experts on the subject.

I think it far more likely the Night Elves were worried that the Blood Elves would cause a new “Well of Eternity explosion” and decided that they had to stop them.
More along the lines of: “If we destroy these things they can’t do it!”
Instead of this: “If we destroy these things they will slowly die off and we can watch with glee as they cease to exist MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!”

Though if I am wrong and there is written evidence to support this being a mission of genocide where the goal was to exterminate the Thalassian people as a whole, I’m willing to be corrected.

No, 2 attempted genocide points actually.

The Old Horde signed up with the Amani, for their support against the Alliance they would first help the Amani kill their oldest enemies the High Elves.
This was an attempted genocide because the goal was to exterminate every single elf they could get their hands on.

That’s actually the second attempted genocide the Old Horde got involved in.
The first was on Draenor when they decided that to kill every single Draenei was the right move.
There’s an entire road paved with Draenei bones as a result of this.

So yes, 2 points… Not 1…

I don’t agree here…

Sure the Orcs were pawns… But they had a hell of a lot more free will than the wandering corpses that shuffled their way into Quel’Thalas.
The Orcs agreed to help wipe out the elves because they needed help against the Alliance.
They weren’t a pack of mindless brutes shuffling their way up to the gates.
Their natural bloodlust was cranked up to 11 by the demon blood they have consumed, sure, but they still had their minds, hazy as they might have been.

The undead Scourge on the other hand had zero free will.
They shuffled in there because their master demanded they do so.
And I agree we shouldn’t place blame based on what an undead does when he has no free will.
Because if we did, the elves should be very cross with the Forsaken, many of whom might very well be the same corpses that shuffled into Quel’Thalas under Arthas’ orders.

So yeah, the orcs weren’t in their “right mind”.
But the undead weren’t in any kind of mind. Puppets on a string.

I’m not saying what Garithos did was right, nor am I excusing his actions.
I’m just saying his acts weren’t genocidal just because they were horrible.

He was a madman who hated elves and wanted to kill the ones under his command.
Either by giving them suicidal orders or killing them if they disobey.

But we can’t prove that his end goal was to eradicate the elven people as a whole.
That may very well have happened if he had succeeded, as the elves would barely had any military forces left to defend themselves with, nor would any have returned to Quel’Thalas to help them deal with their addiction.
It’s likely that either the Amani would have rallied and wiped them off the map, or their addiction would turn them all either dead or wretched in due time.

But I personally think it’s extremely unlikely Garithos knew all this.
That he knew he could set in motion this seems extremely unlikely, seeing as he’s not the brightest guy.
He’s only in charge because everyone above him in the chain of command was dead. If he had been a genius he would probably have been higher up the chain to begin with.

I see him rather as the immature child who lashes out against what he doesn’t like (elves), rather than the diabolical mastermind who could hatch such a plot.

Of course it’s terrible. I’m not claiming otherwise.

I’m just disagreeing that it’s attempted genocide, because we have no way of proving that Garithos’ goal was the extermination of the elves.

Mind you I am sure he would not have felt any kind of remorse if his actions wiped them off the face of Azeroth.
He would probably consider himself some kind of hero to have cleansed the world of the “diabolical elves”.

Sure it’s bad… But I still don’t see any reason to call the dwarf and his Night Elven spies genocidal.

Nor the Elven Sentinels in the Ghostlands who seem more like they are there to spy.

As for their sabotage of important structures, I am not even sure they knew what would happen. As the dwarves are famously not super-mages and the Night Elves hadn’t studied the arcane in ten thousand years by this point in time.

They’re picking it up in Cataclysm and a Blood Elf questgiver in Azshara even points out that the trainee Night Elf mages are woefully inept and inexperienced at what they do. Pointing out that they are using techniques the Blood Elves haven’t touched in a very long time because they are inefficient or something.

And the Night Elven mission in the Ghostlands happens before the return of the Shen’dralar.

Granted, we’re discussing semantics here now.
Not even experts in the field completely agree on what exactly, constitutes a genocide.
Some argue that the UN definition is too narrow, while others argue that using it too broadly will “water it down”, just like what has happened with the word “fascist”.

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952

Do you have any video links for the “You’re welcome, Alliance” and “Alliance always loses” statement from one of the BlizzCon panels? The second one is from a Heroes of the Storm deep dive OR the wow battleground panel some years ago.

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953

that explains really a lot.

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954

i am mildly curious about this thread rather than an advocate of its request mainly due to its traction on a subject which isn’t a current flashpoint. complaints about essences, or corruption will get a LOT of replies right away, but soon people wont care case the next patch/expansion makes them irrelevant. so the call for high elves is unique in a request made to blizzard by an obviously large enough section of players, but ignored for so long. trying to bring attention to dead servers, i feel the same. i have a couple of questions

  1. why was the last one shut down?
  2. what is the high elves fans opinion of the options given to void elves for shadowlands which i presume is meant to satisfy you. is it what you were looking for or do you believe blizzard just tried to appease you with a back of a fag packet answer?
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955

Don’t like it. Those are blood elves playing with voidt. Not high elves loyal to the alliance from 2005

956

That I can only imagine was some people being incredibly petty, it had some good links, some good art (even if someone it was definitely not High Elf stuff), and some good discussions about the practicalities of applying High Elves in game, what they would look like, where they would live, who would lead them, racial talent ideas, such things.

Really it was in the main, a pretty wholesome thread, apart from eejits jumping in going “ion says No!”

Extra hair colours, I don’t mind. They should get normal hair colours. Pretty much everything else can get in the bin. Asking for everything Blood Elves get and then -more- on top, is just ridiculous.

So sure, give them more natural looking hair colours, and I imagine most sensible people would be happy with the compromise Blizzard have presented, because it allows someone to play that blond haired blue eyed elf on Alliance side.

That’s a trickier one. The High Elves as a nation were never part of the Alliance of Lordaeron -until- the Second War when they were, but then seceded from it in annoyance with Terenas’ policies, like Strom and Gilneas. With Hindsight, Strom, Gilneas and Quel’thalas were -right- in their stance. If Terenas had listened to them, there would not even -be- a Horde, or not as we know it.

This said they -did- remain a Neutral Kingdom, though one that -Allied- with the Alliance of Lordaeron, during the Third War. Unfortunately that didn’t end well for all parties concerned, and relations between Quel’thalas and The Alliance of Lordaeron -massively- soured.

You did indeed get individuals who fought for the Alliance, but the Kingdom was not part of it. They’re kind of like those American dudes in the ‘Eagle Squadrons’ who fought for Britain in 1939/1940, despite America the nation not being in the War yet. Or possibly like the people of varying nations who fought for one or other side in the Spanish Civil War, despite their respective countries not taking part.

So -those- High Elves are legit, and would have been loyal to the -Grand- Alliance since it started (which was pretty much when WoW started as a game.

The Kingdom of Quel’thalas has -never- been part of the Grand Alliance as they are today.

Later, the Exile happened, and whilst the Kingdom of Quel’thalas, now known as Blood Elves, were still Neutral in the faction war, more High Elves who were Exiled, did indeed swear to the Alliance, so people like Vereesa, basically. Remember the Silver Covenant did not exist at this time. So -those- High Elves would be legit.

Later, Some Alliance people done goofed, and the Kingdom of Quel’thalas (Technically a Regency, but you still refer to a Kingdom as a Kingdom even if a Regent rules) did Join the Horde, during TBC.

At that point Vereesa realised that this now meant that the Horde had representation in Dalaran, in the body of Aethas and the Sunreavers (sounds like an awesome 80’s band…) and so she then formed the Silver Covenant, from other Exiles, to oppose them in Dalaran.

Those High Elves too are legit.

The Void Elves muddy the waters further, they were Blood Elves, but that’s a Political stance, not a Species, however Umbric protests that they always believed in the Alliance ideals. (Yeah right buddy, so why wait until Rommath had you kicked out during Legion, and only joining when Alleria returned home from her 1,000 years of War package holiday, and rescued them and brought them in.

So they are essentially High Elves, in the same way that Blood Elves are essentially High Elves, because they are all the same species.

-But- We don’t know yet in lore how deeply the Void Energies have changed them, so Void Elves may indeed be something slightly different from both Blood -and- High Elves in a Biological sense, as opposed to a political stance.

I mean the odds are high that they are, they grow weird hair tentacles, are infused with Void energy that has probably delivered a solid right hook to their natural DNA, given that even their -blood- has changed colour.

Basically Elves change loyalty the way other people change their hair colour or underwear, they do what suits -them- first and foremost. And that’s pretty much how Elves from myth and legend were, so why not?

An Alliance High Elf -should- look identical to a Blood Elf, and to be honest with the option of gold and green eyes for High Elves too, because the same Sunwell nourishes them, and some High Elves did fight on Outlands, so would have been exposed to Fel.

Personally I’d have given the new Void Elf skins the options of Belf hair colours, and the two eye colours just mentioned, and Ta-da! Alliance High Elf.

2 Likes
957

Except it’s not, and never be unless they make highelves playable for alliance, like silvercovenant

958

But whats the difference? If they gave the hair colours and the eye colours, whats the difference? The Iconic High Elf classes, Silver Covenant or just in General are Magi and Rangers. Actually, add in Priests because of the WCIII High Elf Priestesses you did see.

So you can play something that looks like a High Elf, with the iconic High Elf classes, Whats the big deal?

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959

High Elf Priests actually.

None of the female high/blood elves were Priests. They were Mages and Rangers.
Males were spellbreakers and priests.

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960

That’s true, I was thinking the WCIII units you specifically recruited on Alliance, as opposed to the Blood Elf units. pretty sure one was the Priest class, wasn’t it? (Again, a while since I played it)

But yeah, either way, Void Elves can be the iconic High Elf classes, so ehh….

961

They still are called void elves, still have that entropic embrace. Its just not highelves what community asked

962

Well, we are Void Elves :no_mouth:

963

Alliance silver moon?lol xD. That is a horde city btw.

964

Which retail server was shut down actually?

I’m not a helf-fan but I will make one. I have every race at LV120 and this one will be no exceptation.

It’s just a compromise they had to do because they made the mistake in not giving the players what they specifically asked for. But luckily though these elves will be likely act as high elves as much as the Blackrock Orcs and Wildhammer Dwarves work under the Mag’har- and Bronzebeard-umbrella.

965

well, literally its friday, and i can’t get out of my head, when seriously highelves will be added as playable race?

I will keep this topic updated. Thank you guys.

966
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967

Lotta Arrogance there, and ignoring those people who actually want Void Elves.

Why? It was -Never- an iconic class for High Elves, that was Hunters and Mages,
Paladins were -never- an iconic class for High Elves, the only people who ask for them, don’t know anything about High Elves.

So everyone was -right- then, when they said the people demanding High Elves were not happy with High Elves, but actually wanted the name of the Void Elf Allied race removing and changing?

Because I seem to distinctly remember that most people who wanted High Elves actually said “No, that’s just crazy people, that’s not what we want”

Oh my word…you actually -do- want that. You actually want them to remove a playable race, and replace it with your fantasy?

Do I have to explain to you how utterly mad that sounds?

Actually, No, I don’t.

I don’t need to explain how mad that is at all. You actually think 90% of the Horde player base are maining Blood Elves. You actually think that. I think we can safely disregard what you are saying here as you are just making up facts out of nowhere. I mean we do -know- what the last actual factual percentage of people playing Blood Elves on Horde as mains were if you want to hear it, but its nowhere near 90%. Quite a lot lower, like, a lot. Only a few percent above those playing Forsaken and Orcs as it goes. That’s Each, not combined…

Did this post come from the US Forums perchance?

2 Likes
968

NOOOOOOO Who bumped this?!

969

this would be ok with me

  1. blizz admits their stupid horde-biased decision to add purple elves
  2. high elves from 2005 join alliance

im happy

cant post on us forums tho ;(

1 Like