“Traitor” is a matter of perspective…
In the eyes of the Quel’dorei and Ren’dorei, the Sin’dorei are the traitors.
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This thread is a joke now
Had a good laugh when Turiel called Fizzleshot horde spy ![:laughing:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/laughing.png?v=6" ":laughing:")
Good job Fizzleshot! You are the best Horde spy we ever had.
I can only imagine that even the Blizz staff can’t be arsed anymore to read all posts here.
That isn’t how it works. A traitor betrays a body politic, usually a nation. The Nation is Quel’thalas. Lor’themar Theron is the legal and legitimate ruler. To act against the State, is therefore an act of Treason, and that of a Traitor.
Now this is where it gets a bit semantic, but still true. Dark’han Drathir was a Traitor, he betrayed his people, and gave Arthas free passage into Quel’thalas, he was a Thalassian citizen at the time, so is pretty unarguably a traitor.
The High Elves equally are in an odd position. Those High Elves who stayed with the Alliance after Anasterian seceded from it do indeed fit the description of a Traitor. They swore their allegiance to a foreign power bloc, and not their own country, -However- those High Elves who were exiled by Lor’themar, are -not- Traitors, nor are technically, the Void Elves, I’ll explain why.
At the point you are Exiled, you lose all rights and protections of the State, equally you are not obliged to the state, you are simply not a part of it. At that point you can swear fealty where you like, without being a Traitor, the state has already rejected you. Now if you had joined the other side without Exile, you are by definition a Traitor, but if you were Exiled -first- you are not a Traitor.
So in the above example, the Void Elves are not technically traitors, nor are those High Elves Exiled over their refusal to drain mana from living creatures. Those High Elves that stayed with the Alliance and were -not- Exiled, do however class as Traitors.
The Sin’dorei, by definition, as the legitimate state, cannot be classed in any way as traitors. They may have chosen a different side, but as a (at the time) neutral party, they are free to place their Allegiance wherever the State chooses.
So basically, Sin’dorei are not Traitors, they are the legitimate State.
Void Elves are not Traitors, as they did not belong to the State when they joined the Alliance.
The High Elves Exiled over their refusal to drain Mana from living creatures are also not Traitors, as they did not belong to the State when they joined the Alliance.
Any High Elves who were not Exiled, who have stayed with the Alliance, rather than the state, are however, Traitors.
Is how it works and has worked in our real world history, at any rate.
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It’s not that black and white…
Traitor
noun
A person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.
For example, a people can rise up against its government. The state would call them traitors, while the rebels could call the government for traitors. Depending on their cause.
Say a Democratic state shifts towards a more Autocratic way of government.
It would be the same nation, the same people. Say the new government even got recognized as the legal authority by many or all other nations.
Anyone rising up would fit the textbook definition as a traitor.
The State would call the rebels traitors for betraying their nation, which they do.
The Rebels would call the State traitors for betraying the ideals/principles the nation was founded on.
Real world examples would be the War of Independence.
The Loyalists called the Rebels for traitors because they turned their back on the British Crown. The Rebels called the Loyalists traitors for choosing to side with a government that didn’t represent them rather than their own people.
Edward Snowden. Some call him a hero, others a traitor. If it was black and white, with no room for points of view, everyone would call him a traitor or a hero.
If you view his actions purely objectively. Then you could theoretically say he betrayed his nation. But according to him, he did it because he felt the nation was betraying the trust of its citizens and he didn’t want the nation he loved to go down that path.
If it was black and white he nor anyone else would be able to deny the charge of treason.
In the game the Ren’dorei could potentially view the state of Quel’thalas as having betrayed them, by exiling them for studying the Void.
While it’s already proven that Lor’themar Theron views the Ren’dorei as traitors, because in the Siege of the Undercity scenario, Lor’themar calls the Void Elves traitors when they show up.
“The Void Elves… Those traitors must be dealt with!”
Another example in-game would be the War of the Ancients.
Queen Azshara viewed everyone who opposed her as traitors, they owed her their allegiance as she was their Queen and rightful ruler.
While those who fought against her probably viewed her as the traitor, as she had betrayed her people by inviting demons to Azeroth, causing death and destruction to her own people.
In our world the history books are packed full of examples of opposing factions who have called each other traitors… Sometimes with cause, and other times because it paints your enemy in a negative light to call him a traitor.
Not necessarily true. If the High Elves feel that Lor’themar and his government have betrayed the ideals/principles/morals of the Elven nation by siding with their old enemy the Horde.
Then they could call Lor’themar and his ilk for traitors.
To make matters even more confusing you got Law to take into account as well.
When the United States was first formed, they defined treason like this:
“Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”
By this definition it’s only possible for an American citizen to be called a traitor during a time of War if he works against the United States or aids their enemies.
While in British law, treason was defined as “Disloyalty to the King.”
So anyone who opposed the King were by English Law, traitors.
But I’m sure the newly formed United States didn’t view themselves as a nation of traitors without honor. As they felt betrayed by the very government they rose up against. They considered themselves English, but were not represented in Parliament after all.
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But i’ll really love it if they at The Silvermoon warfront add those sin’dorei there know The Alliance’s the right choice for them. As it’s seen within a machinima there are. And they secretly help The Alliance in with the promise of that no innocents will be harmed. Unlike a certain banshie queen.
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So, you mean those Blood Elves will suddenly start thinking that Alliance is the right choice for them… after Alliance attacks Silvermoon in a warfront?
How exactly do you think attacking their city and lands, and killing their people would give Blood Elves a good impression of Alliance?
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You diden’t read my post right then if you did you’ll not say that.
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Stop answering him. His alliance biased view depends on insulting everyone who isn’t supporting his pov.
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No it isn’t i can do an argument but he acted as if he only read half of it.
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Snip
A Really well thought out answer, with some good examples, I like sensible discussion with sensible people. So, OK…
Admittedly the definition I gave was a small scale one, such as the ‘Cambridge 5’, the most infamous of which being Kim Philby. They were undeniably Traitors. In their case it would be hard to justify that Great Britain had betrayed them, but easy to claim that they had betrayed Great Britain. -If- the Void Elves had simply jumped ship to the Alliance, you could apply the same measure, as they are so small in number, being a cabal of dabblers in the Void who were even told to stop it, however as they were Exiled, they were essentially ‘Free agents’.
The War of Independence as you cite it, is a trickier one, it was essentially a civil war, which the Colonial Power tried to suppress. Many Americans, I believe they were referred to as ‘Whigs’ were unhappy with Colonial rule, however some Americans, referred to as ‘Tory’s’ (Not to be confused with the British political party) actually stayed loyal to the Crown.
The waters were further muddied by a great misunderstanding of history: The Boston Tea Party, and “No Taxation without Representation”. Everyone assumes that the Dastardly English wanted to charge American colonists high tax on imported Tea, and that is what the revolt was about. It was actually the opposite. England wanted to charge American colonists -Less- tax on imported Tea, the revolt was staged by American merchants (disguising themselves as Native American Indians) because -they- wanted to charge their fellow Americans Higher Taxes on the Tea they were buying. It is spectacularly unironic that a hyper-capitalist nation like the USA was actually founded on an act of greed, but anyway, I digress.
It wasn’t really the same as the High Elf/Blood Elf situation, there was no Civil War, there were no ‘two sides’ (Probably best for the High Elves, 9 to 1 odds rarely end well).
I suppose, and overly simplifying it drastically, the closest we have in the Real world, is the situation with the Peoples Republic of China (Or just ‘China’ as it is known, and the Republic of China (Or Taiwan as it is also known). To China, Taiwan is regarded as a treacherous offshoot of its people, and to this very day only 16 Nations actually recognise Taiwan as a separate country diplomatically, We’re on the EU forums, so I feel safe in saying that wherever you live, your country (and mine) does -not- recognise Taiwan diplomatically (though unofficially we still trade with them) and instead recognise ‘China’ diplomatically. So the mainland China is The State, Taiwan is a trade partner, but not a State.
Similarly in WoW, when Varian, and later Anduin, want to normalise relations with the state of Quel’thalas, it is to Lor’themar Theron that they go (Or receive word from, in the case of Varian) , not to Vereesa Windrunner, who in any case would be unable to affect any change in Quel’thalas.
Going back to the ‘Two Chinas’, Whilst Taiwan is by far the preferable to western democracies, holding many of the same values, and a valued trading partner, and even one some back militarily, we still don’t ‘recognise’ them as the legitimate rulers of China, or even a state. Mainland China however, is Communist, repressive, and in many ways entirely politically the opposite to The West, and yet we -do- recognise their legitimacy. Sort of, ‘Our Hearts tell us to like Taiwan, but our Minds tell us to recognise China’.
That’s more similar, I think, to the High Elf/Blood Elf split, or at least, as close an approximation as we can get in our real world?
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I see your point, and I agree that in such a case it would be hard to argue that the Cambridge 5 were anything but traitors. But Lor’themar doesn’t agree with you though. Branding us poor Void Elves as traitors even if the Void Elves only joined the Alliance after being kicked out of Quel’thalas. (This character of mine used to be a Blood Elf even, race changed after Void Elves became available.)
And only exist because Alleria Windrunner saves them from becoming Void beings, as Nether Prince Durzaan tries to reduce them (or uplift them as he probably thought of it) to beings of void energy, devoid of physical forms.
This raises another point though, of how the Void Elves will “multiply”. As the only reason the Void Elves look different from regular elves is that they were partially changed by Durzaan.
Alleria is proof that if Void Elves learn their Void Powers without being forcefully altered they should look the same.
So unless they plan to subject every new initiate to the same “almost turn them to void beings” treatment, new Void Elves should look normal.
Unless they’ve become altered on a genetic level and new children born from their unions become Void Elves.
Yeah, that was an example of how the term “traitor” becomes tricky to nail down. As it depends on which side you happen to agree/sympathize with.
Hehe haven’t thought of that. Thanks for the laugh.
No it’s not a civil war, I agree to that. But I just pointed out that the High Elves could potentially call the Blood Elves, or more specifically, the government of the Blood Elves for traitors.
If they view it as treasonous to join the Horde. It’s not that long ago that the Orcs, together with the Amani trolls burned their forests down after all. And for a long lived race such as the High Elves, 20ish years is nothing.
Granted the Orcs were under the control of the Burning Legion at the time, but I am assuming that the average High Elf doesn’t know much about that.
The Blood Elves would be more likely candidates for knowing that piece of information, as it is common knowledge among the Orcs and the Blood Elves have close ties with them now, through shared military campaigns, trade and diplomacy.
So one side calls the other side traitors for joining what they perceive to be the enemy.
The High Elves condemn the Blood Elves for joining the Horde, while the Blood Elves condemn the High Elves for remaining loyal to the Alliance.
(Lor’themar has already shown that he’s not above branding people as traitors for joining the Alliance even if he exiles them first.)
I see your point, and agree that the government of the Blood/High Elves are situated in Quel’thalas, even if there are splinter factions who are opposed to their rule. Such as the Void Elves and Vereesa’s Silver Covenant. And any number of High Elf individuals who for some reason or other haven’t joined their people in the Horde.
I agree that the comparison is as close as we get in our world. Didn’t even think of China and Taiwan to be honest.
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I think what you bubs are overlooking. Theres no -unifying- structure left to the feeble high elf stragglers in stormwind and other places outside Dalaran. Nothing whats uniting them there.
And your muchly worshipped Silver covenant is a dalaran oriented group. Theres completely no sign that every high elf remnant have flocked to them at all.
So yeah, the stormwind helves is most likely following Alleria’s example and bedding humans for a way of living., becomming pseduo human wannabes.
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Any proof? They could also just repopulate with their own kin that way recreating The High elven blood line once again.
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Suits me just fine… I’d rather have playable Half-Elves anyway, with Mok’nathal Half-Ogres for the Horde.
Always like half-breeds in fantasy settings…
It’s closing in on what 18-20 years since the destruction of Quel’thalas anyway?
Any High Elven refugees who met a human “bae” could in theory have young aduly children now… If the growth rate of Vereesa’s Half-Elven children are any indicator anyway…
But I won’t go into a lengthy discussion about that topic here, as this is a thread about High Elves.
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Elves (Thalassian ones at least) are said to get to physical maturity at the same speed as humans do, yes, so I would expect halfbreed of human/thalassian elf descent to be the same. I’m not sure for the date on Quel’thalas’ destruction, numbers being what they are in WoW.
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Yes, we know this from ‘Edge of Night’, Sylvanas is already a Farstrider aged 20, and given there were no external threats yet, it is not likely Quel’thalas was using Child soldiers!
We don’t know how long ago it was that she -was- 20 mind, as it is a flashback, but we now at 20 a High Elf is considered adult and able to serve in the Military/Political side of things.
Given human ageing, I would strongly imagine that Half Elves reach adulthood at the same rate as other Elves/Humans. We know that Arator (Alleria and Turalyon’s Son) is an adult, but then he was born before the split, and we know that Vereesa and Rhonin’s two children, who were born at roughly that time, are still ‘children’ (The words used in ‘War Crimes’, albeit older children) however the implication of their brief mention is that they are likely very early teens. Going by Blizz lore, Quel’thalas destruction is not much more than 14-15 years ago. ( I think)
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So they mature at the same rate as humans then, just live a lot longer…
Quel’thalas was destroyed in Warcraft 3. There’s 4 years between the end of Warcraft III and the start of World of Warcraft (1st WoW Cinematic confirms this).
Then we know that a year on Azeroth is the same as a year in our world. So 4 years + 14 years of World of Warcraft.
So it’s 18 years ago.
Apparently so, they hit adult at around the same age, both physically and societally, and then just kind of hang around there, We only have a few indications for their top end age.
- We know Alleria fought in the Troll Wars, which ended 2,800 years before the Black Portal first opened, she’s got to be at least that old, and still seems hale and hearty.
2.We know Anasterian -reigned- for 3,000 years, but we don’t know how old he was when he took the throne. - We know that Blood Elves, High Elves, Night Elves (Presumably Nightborne and Void Elves too) live for ‘Several’ thousand years, you never use the word ‘Several’ to mean anything that isn’t between 3 and 9.
4.We ‘Know’ (Subject to the author admitting they made another mistake) that Lorash was second generation Exile, and was 7,000 years old, and yet still seems to be top of his game.
It seems to be the case that High/Blood Elves mature at the same rate as humans, remain relatively ageless, and then have a sudden decline as they hit old age, which, to be honest, makes sense from a biological point of view, any cellular tissue that keeps going that long, when it goes, it is going to go -fast-.
Awesome, I was looking for a figure, I knew it had to be at least 14-15 years. 18 years makes a lot more sense to me. So yeah, 18 years then.
Actually I think that’s incorrect… I used to believe that as well, but after reading through Chronicles, which makes no mention of her participation during the Troll Wars as well as a few other things I changed my mind about it.
Granted, the Chronicles are by no means detailed, all of the information it has on the Troll Wars is written on a grand total of 3 pages after all. It’s more a quick summary of the history.
But important lore characters are usually mentioned.
This does not prove anything on its own of course.
But there’s also the fact that the only piece of information tying Alleria to the Trolls Wars is an old Warcraft Encyclopedia entry that says she earned renown for the number of trolls she killed in that war.
And there’s also Vereesa’s age to take into account. In the novel Day of the Dragon, she’s described as a young High Elf, who’s recently gotten into the Rangers. So she’s a novice and considered young.
Young is a bit hard to pin down for a race with a lifespan on the upper side of 3000 years, but we know they mature at the same rate as humans, and are considered adults around the same time.
That would mean there’s almost 3000 years between the birth of the oldest and youngest sister, which I would find a bit odd.
I personally, think that there’s been a retcon* somewhere that Blizz hasn’t publicly announced. Where she originally fought in the Troll Wars, but was made younger at some point.
She can still have gained fame fighting Amani trolls in one of the numerous engagements between the Elves of Quel’Thalas and the trolls of the Amani tribes. Just not the Troll Wars.
*If they were even aware of any information about her participation in the Troll Wars to begin with. Sometimes I wonder how firm a grasp Blizz has on their own lore, judging by the amount of information that is contradictory or just doesn’t exist.
I personally think that the natural Elven lifespan (excluding death from disease, accidents or violence) is somewhere between 3000 and 3500.
The Highborne were exiled roughly 7300 years ago, and the Sunstrider dynasty which starts with Dath’Remar and ends with his great-grandson Anasterian. (Chronicles Volume 1: Chapter IV: A New World p.121, confirmation that there’s that many generations between them)
And we know that Anasterian was King during the Troll Wars (Chronicles Volume 1: Chapter IV: A New World p.130) which makes him at least 2800 years old.
And he’s described as old when Arthas fights him, as he says something along the line that “You may have been formidable once, but I sense your life force flickering”.
So I suspect there’s been some Kings in that line that met their end early, perhaps fallen in battle against the Amani, succumbed to disease or accidents.
And that the 3000 is closing in on the maximum lifespan.
Yeah I think whoever wrote Lorash just didn’t research the lore well enough.
Which I can completely understand, because Blizz seems to have an aversion to nailing things down.
The maximum lifespan for the different races, for example, is just guesswork. We know how long humans live and we assume Orcs live around the same amount of time seeing as Alternate Draenor Grommash had time to get old before the Mag’har recruitment quest line.
But all the other races? Who the hell knows.
And don’t even get me started on the Draenei. We know Velen is ridiculously old, but then it becomes a question of whether that’s normal or just a Prophet thing. But he’s not immortal, because he has obviously aged since departing Argus.
This I agree with. I would imagine they age rapidly once they start to reach their maximum lifespan.
Wouldn’t imagine they would look like 60 year old humans for a thousand years before dying at 3000.
Yeah, agreed, but then that is the latest canon source we have, it hasn’t been retconned. I fully agree with you that it is unlikely, because we know there were two Kings between Anasterian and Dath’remar, but as I say, we know he was King during the Troll Wars up until WC3.
This also, without getting overly icky about it, is a vague area. We have no idea how old Sylvanas was at death, we know Vereesa was young, but as I say, without getting biologically precise about it, we -don’t know- how long Elven females remain fertile for. I’m not sure she was -incredibly- young, as wasn’t Lirath Windrunner younger than her? ( I could entirely be wrong on that, but ‘Three sisters’ shows them as all pretty much being adult -before- Arthas came, Lirath too.) It isn’t -that- outlandish a possibility, my youngest aunty is only ten years older than me, and there is a more than 30 year gap between myself as the oldest cousin, and my youngest cousin, and that’s a human lifespan. With a race whose lives span millennia, I’m not sure that is as outlandish as it first sounds, especially if Elves remain hale and hearty until extreme old age, it might be possible, if rare.
That’s my take on it as well, our headcanon in the Sun Hawks is that 4,000 is pretty much “A Good run” in terms of lifespan, the way in our world we would regard someone who made it to 100 or so. Possible, but rare.
Well, we know they made mistakes, they had to publicly admit they got the dialogue between Lorash and Malfurion wrong where Malfurion said “We would not dream of attacking your people” and he then had to go “Actually I forgot the starting Blood Elf zones, Yes, I got that wrong” So I personally think it is possible he got the ageing thing wrong as well. If Blizz meant Blood Elves to have life spans that long, I think they would have used the words “Close to ten thousand years” rather than “Several thousand years” to describe them. I’d reckon 5,000 max, with 4,000 being a more likely figure.
I hate to be -that guy-, but there is a Draenei on Bloodmyst isle, who was also born on Argus, and he’s no one special. He sells Mushrooms…
Jessera of Mac’Aree. It might not just be a ‘Prophet’ thing. That might actually be a Draenic life expectancy. I mean Jessera doesn’t look -young-, but he’s no big deal importance-wise.
Yeah, I agree. We have obviously aged NPC’s in Sun Hawks RP plot, and they tend to be Elves around the 3,000 mark. Sounds about right to me.