Red Versus Blue Containment Thread (Potential PTR Spoilers)

This thread is meant to serve as a containment zone for faction conflict arguments about the Horde and the Alliance that keep on derailing other threads, especially the PTR Spoiler thread whenever we get any new information, as some members of the community immediately try to tie that new information to faction conflict stuff that was resolved over five years ago.

With that, I’ll start with my response.

Are we forgetting Mists of Pandaria and Battle for Azeroth, in which the Horde were the bad guys and the plot revolved around rebels navel-gazing and self-flagellating about how monstrous the Horde was, while they helped the Alliance fight against it so that it could be reformed, a process that has left the Horde with a very small roster of recognisable characters that are still alive and basically no plot development at all in the past five years?

There’s no need to go “but what about the Horde and their crimes,” we already had our big story arc about their atonement that resulted in the Horde getting gutted and now ignored for half a decade, and people still complain to this day that said story arc paid too much attention to the Horde.

Yes, the Horde did worse in the past and of the two factions, the Horde is guilty of far worse crimes, primarily thanks to the decisions of Garrosh and Sylvanas. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t allowed to mention the comparatively smaller sins of the Alliance that Blizzard often ignores or whitewashes.

That is precisely why some people talk about these smaller sins so much - some people still feel like there’s been no resolution or apology for the Dalaran Purge, for example, when compared to the consequences that the Horde suffered for its Battle for Azeroth story arc - having its leadership completely gutted and overhauled, to the point where it has very few recognisable characters left in comparison to the Alliance and subsequently receiving no attention, because there’s no one interesting left for Blizzard to write about.

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The Horde could have been improved if the overlooked racial leaders actually had a chance to do something. Now we have no oppressive warchief to claim the spotlight, so where’s Ji Firepaw as the voice of peace (hopefully working with Aysa Cloudsinger, and not as silent Earthen monk trainers)? Where’s Kiro as the head logistician (and apparently a shaman of a brand new tradition)? How is Gi’yara adapting to the new world and can she do anything except fighting? And so on. The Horde still has a lot of potential, but for it to be realised it has to remember there’s more than Thrall to do things. It’s the Horde, not a one orc army.

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Councils are only interesting as a form of governance in fiction if they disagree with each other and butt heads based off of both personal ideologies and political logistics.

If the Horde Council is otherwise in lockstep with only the occasional backhanded comment from someone, it’s effectively no different from a single dictatorship in the narrative except we don’t get that single character’s personality quirks shining through to make us care about them.

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I’ll fix it. Put me in charge.

Corpseburner 4 Warchief

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I don’t mean the governance itself. We hardly have anyone actually rule the Alliance either. I mean being there for the problems to solve, like any division/race leader would.

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Case in Point: The Grand Alliance and its Human High Command where everyone just agreed with Varian and now with Anduin.

The most interesting thing that happened to the Human High Command of the Alliance was Tyrande flipping them the bird finally and going off to do her own thing against what God-Emperor… Err “High-King” Anduin decided.

Most interesting and best thing they could do is have the actual Racial leaders be these far away leaders that are to pre-occupied to deal with the small day-to-day thing and use that to build up a small number of new characters for both Horde and in a lesser case the Alliance.

We all know alot of races need a new generation of back up characters, and if a race is in need of a racial leader, Blizzard could start with putting them in smaller questlines before propping them up to bigger things to do!

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Not al all, but you’re glossing over the fact that after MoP the Horde did exactly the same for a second time.

Or that in both cases all the blame was essentially shifted to one person (the Warchief), and that anyone else that helped in warcriming was instantly reintegrated into the new new and new new new Horde, no matter if they happily joined into the slaughter of innocents.

Or both times the rebellion only happened because the Warchief turned against the rebels, but before that those rebels happily planned, helped, executed, or joined in on slaughtering Alliance left and right.

Yeah that is bad and I hate it, the Horde deserves some love too (even if I don’t always show it, I do believe the Horde got the short end of the stick and they deserve better stories and cool leaders, instead of rebelling every couple years).

Let’s hope the orc heritage will help establish some more orc leaders/heroes for the Horde, tho I sadly doubt it…

Ok, thats actually is a fair point, it would surprise you that I actually want the Alliance to be the attacked and aggressor and “bad” guy at one point (and sorry, you’ll see me defending everything the Alliance does then too).

I hoped Turalyon would’ve been that person to get the Alliance to do that, and maybe with the Arathi coming, there’s still a chance!

I get that, I do, but not everything needs a resolution (or will get one), I mean there’s lots of things that are unresolved too, like Ashenvale’s situation (thanks Exploring Azeroth), Southshore, Tiragarde Keep (also, Orgrimmar deserves an update with a proper Harbour)! Tho those are more recent examples admittedly.

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Badly from what we see in TWW, she and Turalyon both bicker with eachother, ready to fight!

Agreed, we saw in the Orc heritage alot of orcs that could do with more lore and become new heroes and leaders (Jorin Deadeye, pls).

A problem both the Horde and Alliance have!

Horde has almost exclusively orcs and Forsaken.

Alliance has almost exclusively humans and night elves.

I remember the quest where we met “Alliance” High Command and it was Anduin, Genn, Jaina, Halford and Mathias Shaw…

On second thought, it could be a feature and not a bug. If all the wars the Alliance has waged were done with mostly human units, aside from a few exceptions, the other races might well start guessing whether they actually need the human dictatorship over their heads.

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Yeah, and Blizzard are hacks for rehashing a tired story arc.

Except for all of the Kor’kron that were canonically arrested and all of the Loyalists who were paraded around Orgrimmar in chains. In both cases, the true believers were punished with extreme prejudice.

I mean, it does sound like the only outcome that you would approve of is the complete and absolute dissolution of the Horde, if you believe that everyone who contributed to the war effort in any shape or form should be punished. Hopefully you’re able to understand why that’s an unrealistic and unappealing prospect in the eyes of many players, and that an argument that boils down to “the Horde should be deleted, otherwise all of their crimes have been swept under the rug and ignored” is kind of silly.

I also wouldn’t describe all forms of Horde killing members of the Alliance as “slaughter.” Save that for the instances of civilians being killed. Even then, the butchery of civilians is something that the Alliance is guilty of as well, in both wars, even the Horde is certainly responsible for killing more and in more unpleasant manners, something that has been acknowledged and that the Horde has been punished for on multiple occasions.
However, the Alliance gets away with massacring Horde non-combatants without any comment - or if there is a comment, it’s typically a Horde character saying that the Horde deserved it, or a Horde character trying to make amends.
See Aethas getting a gift for Jaina in order to heal the rift between them (despite the anti-sin’dorei pogrom she led in Dalaran) or Baine declaring the annihilation of Taurajo to be valid because it was a military target, despite not being much more than a hunting camp.

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Never trust a mortal to do a demon’s job.

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100% true.

And so I stand corrected, had to do a little digging but:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/orgrimmar-npc-dialogue-after-war-campaign-finale-eitrigg-sylvanas-loyalists-295290

That said!

Eitrigg: Player, we must speak.

The choice you made in the Hall of the Brave… I >don’t hold it against you. We each did what we >thought was right.

Leave it in the past. What matters now is how we >reunite the Horde. This is how we start.

Former Banshee Loyalist: They told me all would be forgiven if I swore an oath to the Horde. I just want to sell my anchorweed!

Gazlowe: So let 'em! Sylvanas is gone, and we all >gotta unite if we wanna survive.

Gazlowe: If they say they’re not with Sylvanas no >more, then they’re not. She conned a lot of folks >into following her.

Baine Bloodhoof: I will not tolerate such talk! >Many were led astray by Sylvanas’s lies.

Baine Bloodhoof: We must now come together >as a united Horde. Those who seek forgiveness >are forgiven.

Baine Bloodhoof: They have sworn an oath of >loyalty to the Horde. They should be allowed to >use your services.

So it is a bit of both, there were unrepentant Loyalists bieng dragged through the streets, but the other side is if you “swear” to the Horde you would be allowed to walk free!

Or Alliance, the Horde has canonically been the strongest faction for a while now, and I think a war story where there’s a clear winner and loser would be cool, and they could tell a story over expansions of the other faction rebuilding and becoming powerful/militant/radical while the winner would be distracted/weakened by gorilla warfare and global threats they had to now face alone!

Yeah that was weird.

It was a valid military target.

Also, I weirdly enough can’t post on the pc, when I log in none of my characters show up :frowning:

If only someone had guts for this. In this case a decisive victory of the Alliance after MoP would have been an interesting option, with the need to hold occupation forces throughout Kalimdor, all while, yes, fighting the demons/Old Gods/whatever else is around on several fronts at once. Alone. With the neutral factions now less than willing to support the apparent world conqueror. But unfortunately, we can’t have a half of player population suffer a crushing defeat through no action or choice of their own unless we can.

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I honestly wouldn’t care, you can do everything right and still lose.

Geneva Convention? More like geneva suggestion.

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The concept of real world definitions for war crimes being injected into fantasy settings always rubbed me the wrong way. Both Final Fantasy XIV and World of Warcraft did it but they mysteriously only apply the definitions to the perceived ‘bad guys’ and never the ‘good guys’ even in cases where the supposed ‘good guys’ have clearly done something utterly reprehensible.

I do think some relative ‘one for one’ payback would have been better off for the long term health of the game. The Purge of Dalaran wouldn’t have been so ridiculous if the Alliance had a quest chain to take out Aethas and the Horde had a quest chain to eliminate Vereesa for her reprehensible torture and murder of innocent Blood Elven civilians which has apparently now been unceremoniously retconned, which is particularly stupid in the context of it having spawned a lot of long term role-play for many Blood Elf role-players who reacted accordingly at the time to seeing friends, family and neighbours killed.

I despise both factions at this point, in all honesty. Both have heavily contributed to the playable races I like being sidelined and written terribly solely to justify fitting into one of two fairly shallow and volatile organisations.

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I’l echo what has been said on these forums before!

No more factions, instead focus on smaller racial disputes like the Night Elves and Orcs, with Taurens trying to be the voice of reason!

Or Trolls and Kul Tirans, Humans and Forsaken etc

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You know, I’d be fine with that aslong as the gnomes and dwarves remain friends.

(Gnomes bieng their own nation instead of a part of the Kingdom of Khaz Modan was, is, and will remain a mistake).

Welcome to the one piece of realistic storytelling. Victors aren’t judged, whether we want justice or not. It’s the retcons that are pointless.

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“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.” - Grand Admiral Daelin “Greatest Prophet in History” Proudmoore.

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