I don´t think it´s an open question at all given that every single Penitent we see is being genuine.
Could there be some that have decided to join the “winner” (in a conflict where winner got to exist undisturbed and loser didn´t get to conquer the universe, so not sure if we can even use the terms here) and aren´t being genuine? Sure, but until we actually see one, the canon lore is that all Penitent are truly repentant eredar that want to attone for their sins (and acknowledge that they may never achieve that attonement for their sins are too many to count).
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It almost did in WC3. Thrall had only the Warsong and some clanless orcs at his disposal, to the point where Daelin had a real chance to wipe the entire Durotar with a single expeditionary unit. It took, as we call it, heroes, able to perform a covert operation with Jaina’s help to put him down.
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I never called them this, though. Just because they would be unable to stand up against this great Alliance enemy that Blizzard had been selling for decades, wouldn’t mean the Horde as a faction would be weak. It would just mean they had to be more resourceful instead.
Instead we got the “RAAARGH ME SMASH NO TACTICS”-Horde. And I hate it…!
I have seen alot of people over the many decades describe the Alliance as this, because thats how Blizzard writes and portrays them, lol???
Man, I don’t care about numbers or whatever, it almost never matters in a game anyways…
I want hard facts about cultural things like Rites of Passages for Kaldorei, How does one become a Priestess, etc etc
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You’ll get what lore is relevant to the latest expac end-game grind and you will LIKE it, citizen! 
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This feels like a huge flanderization, though. The Horde encompasses many races of varying cultures, and the tactics we see reflect that. We see repeatedly during every single theatre of war that the Horde is able to match the Alliance industrially, often pioneering technology (albeit with that classic goblin case of experimental explosion-ism). I don’t recall any point after WoD where it is mentioned that the Horde just isn’t up to par in these respects, and everything else we’re shown is the exact opposite.
With the setting in and of itself being pulp fantasy, we also see the trope of “If my enemy’s strategy outsmarts mine, it is cowardice” in stuff like World Quest prompts. But it’s been a little funny like that for a while.
I think one of the more damaging aspects about the faction war is, outside of Vanilla and TBC, the Horde hasn’t really been allowed to be angry about anything. Cataclysm onwards has kond of hamstrung the factions in this manner, but it’s always constricted the Horde and made the focus more.
I think Garrosh is an overrated culture and a lot of meme-culture has seeped into his appreciation. But he was rightfully outraged at the sheer poverty of his own people and how broke (Silvermoon) his faction was.
The Bilgewater goblins have a rightful bone to pick with Mathias Shaw amd Stormwind for his “no witnesses” antics because they jad the misfortune of being near Thrall.
What about the night elves who were sabitaging Arcane Sanctums and attacking the forces that were barely holding the Scourge at bay?
It ultimately doesn’t matter, because these threads (among others) weren’t ever considered as a thing going forwards, unlike Jaina being a prat with ‘neutrality’.
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I think it would help if it was clearer what was Actually Canon and what is meta-game, game worldy, not-quite-serious stuff.
Or just, y’know, stuff not being Badly Written.
See ‘Muh Honour’ from BFA…
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Did they even ever properly explain WHY that was a thing?
Other than the entire IRL/Meta “We decided the Horde needed a pretty race so the Eastern Kingdom Elves are just suddenly going to 180 pivot to their not-long-ago-enemies, and they need some sort of antagonist to justify that”?
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I honestly wish we would’ve gotten a “retaking Gilneas” raid or mini-raid about Greymane having a legendary crash-out in wanting to get back at the Forsaken.
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Genn just going “Oh, it’s fine now, lol. My daughter is Queen now, this is sensible” is just…
Certainly is writing that happened, yes ._.
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I feel like a lot of the writing that happened during this time was closing off threads and stories that Danuser/Afrasiabi left behind from BFA/SL just so we wouldn’t be sitting and going “what about this unresolved Faction tension” in the World Soul Saga
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It makes sense if you, chronologically, place the draenei zone occuring before the blood elven zones.
Draenei crash land, encounter night elves, night elves witness Matis and they and the Alliance (read: dwarven ambassador) go and have a ‘look’ at what’s going on in QT. And it’s just assumed guilt by association (Silvermoon wasnt even in contact with Kael any more at this point).
Admittedly, that’s just my take on it.
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I have said it in the past and I’ll say it again.
Horde needs the faction conflict to have a reason to exist as a faction.
Alliance does not.
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TBH if we had a writing team that could put together a faction war that’s not a garbled mess like BFA they could also concoct a setting that’d let the Horde find its footing without having to fight the Alliance.
Something that could have actually happened in an expansion set after Shadowlands, but apparently having a time skip with 1(!) short story about a wedding during it is a better alternative.
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Not necessarily. The Horde can live on its own… if we actually take the renewal part to the heart. There’s the entirety of Barrens and Durotar to make livelier, the Desolace, Lordaeron, Alterac, even Quel’thalas and Suramar deserve some renovation after all the wars and calamities.
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I’d have agreed circa 2007 or even late wrath. But these days, the nightborne and blood elves are tethered by a union and i imagine there may be a settled population of Forsaken in the Ghostlands between Sylv’s “I DoNt CaRe” moment and if there was any forsaken garrison left over from tbc.
So there’s three peoples tied together a bit.
We haven’t actually seen what Blizzard can do with a council-led Horde, because Blizzard hasn’t given them any significant attention since that period. As for players, hubs might be dead but there’s double digits of guilds which are able to thrive and enjoy roleplaying as members of the Horde after the Fourth War.
There hasn’t been a massive public Horde-centric campaign or anything, but most of the ones which the Alliance has put together have revolved around developments introduced by Blizzard. Maybe there will be more public and collaborative RP Horde-side, if Blizzard pushes a few crumbs our way.
As for Daelin’s statement, I wouldn’t call it entirely accurate. I don’t believe that the orcs waged war because it’s inherently in their nature. I think they did it because Garrosh felt like he needed to live up to the legacy of Grom as a courageous war-leader of the Horde, and because a vast number of orcs felt wronged by the Alliance for a laundry list of reasons and finally had the means to fight back.
Also, that particular war was initiated by Varian Wrynn, who is not an orc, let’s not forget that. In fact, he had a strong hatred and mistrust of orcs. not unlike that of Daelin…
But Warlords of Draenor!
None of the Warlords of Draenor were good people, no matter the universe. Pretty much all of them were ambitious monsters and in each universe, all of it took was a little nudging for them to lead their clans to form the Horde and begin conquering. Orc structure is very hierarchical, so most of them followed their chieftains and warlords. Plus, in Warlords of Draenor, there were still exceptions in the form of the Frost Wolves and the Laughing Skulls, so it’s clearly not in the nature of all orcs.
Daelin correctly guessed that the conflict between the Horde and the Alliance would bloom again, he was just wrong about the source of the conflict. It wasn’t due to orcs possessing an inherently genocidal disposition, it was because of the cycle of hatred, because of people on both sides feeling aggrieved for legitimate reasons, because of children who longed to avenge their forebears or live up to their legacy, and because of the manipulation of external force.
In short, Daelin was too caught up in the cycle of hatred to realise that was the reason why the flames of war would be rekindled, and a Horde without faction warfare has yet to have any chance to shine whatsoever, causing me to doubt claims that the Horde will always suck and be boring without all-out war with the Alliance.
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Yes, exactly.
So what do they need the rest of the Horde for?
Why not just go and join the alliance? Or split out on your own?
Horde was built and is themed around being a faction where misfits and ragtags come together not because they like eachother, but because they need eachother.
With the external trauma and threat of Alliance gone, they have no reason not to tag and join other factions, and Horde has no reason to exist.
I don´t think it needs faction conflict, however it needs an enemy that specifically only wants to destroy the Horde. That enemy doesn´t have to be Alliance, and in fact Alliance could also be hostile to this enemy, but the level of threat that Horde experiences from them must be much greater than anyone else.
This is however admittedly difficult to pull off because it´s pretty hard to come up with an enemy that doesn´t want to destroy high elves, void elves or night elves, but takes issue with blood elves and Nightborne. If Horde was only its Vanilla races, it would be much easier.
Alternatively, Horde could embrace its darker side, allowing us an option between the good guys (Alliance) and antiheroes (Horde) fighting the big bad, but that time has unfortunately long passed with sanitization of the post-war Horde.
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I think Horde needs to drink the koolaid and become the true villain faction.