Red Versus Blue Containment Thread (Potential PTR Spoilers)

Which makes it a compelling story. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and my only regret is that we don’t have an entire novel revolving around this conflict. It all felt resolved far too quickly - but then again, as Thrall muses to himself, the embers of the conflict are unlikely to have been stamped out entirely.

On a somewhat related note, I’m glad we weren’t left with some unresolved splinter faction of “fer teh old ways” humans. Given the glacial pace of which story threads in WoW are touched upon, it could well have been years before we retroactively learned what happened to such a lot running wild.

I mean, take for instance the premise of this story in the first place. The status quo we learn of in the Highlands have had (to my knowledge) zero mention before this story.

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I wouldn’t quite call it a land claim as it’s land that already has been claimed by the Horde, it’s just the mass settling of a new group in that claimed region, which is a reasonable cause for alarm and would lead to a spike in tensions, as it could be taken as the Horde sending in reinforces to sweep over the Arathi Highlands and claim it for themselves. In that sense, Marran’s fears are reasonable.

She just goes over the line when she advocates for the expulsion of the Horde from the entire region, even the land that some long-term residents have lived on for decades, because of the claim that the Arathi Highlands belongs to humanity alone. It’s a little sad that she’s in the wrong in such a cut and dry way, but this is Warcraft, Blizzard can’t afford for the geopolitics to be too complicated.

The fact that the long-term residents go unmentioned is a weakness of the story though, as without that information it can seem like the Mag’har just turn up and go “we’re moving into your turf now and if you complain we’re gonna smash you to bits.” Without referencing just how long Hammerfall has existed as a Horde settlement and just how long Horde settlers have lived there, it really does seem like an opportunistic land-grab by the Mag’har.

The game depicts the Arathi Highlands as rolling green hills with the occasional rocky crag, dotted with wheat farms and ancient standing stones. There are some similarities there, though Nagrand always struck me as rather warm and tropical, while I always felt like the Arathi Highlands was more chilly and windswept. No real evidence for that, it’s just the vibe I get.

Your issues with the narrative are valid, though. It’s far from a perfect story.

Well, the last couple of pages confirm that the spymaster (who very well might be one of the best rogues/hunters in the entire setting considering the damage she was able to inflict on Thrall and Jaina and get away with it) is still on the run and likely still loyal to the cause, and that Marran had a bunch of other supporters.

So there is an unresolved splinter faction, it’s just an underground movement in the Highlands rather than all of Stromgarde.

I’m looking forward to seeing how the Stromgarde community reacts to the fact that they’ve had Marran as a regent for a while, and that she has been spouting jingoistic rhetoric and trying to start an all-out war with the Mag’har who have apparently moved into the region.

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It be Troll land before anyone else :evergreen_tree:

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Squatter’s rights don’t apply when you tried to murder the owners, got sent to jail for it, broke out and tried to murder the owners again. Orcs are alien invaders from another planet. They don’t have an ethical right to any territory on Azeroth and they siezed all of what they have by force. Even Durotar they seized by massacring the local Quillboar and centaur who are very much sentient sapient beings. To say the orcs have a right to live in Arathi Highlands is a declaration of Might Makes Right, and there’s no moral high ground to be had there.

Returned? The Arathi never left. And those “settlers” are invaders who ran through the place with an army on their way to Lordaeron and Quel’thalas. I get that you are pro-horde but you are seemingly doing your best to ignore anything that happened before Warcraft III. When the orcs were invading, conquering baddies. Which can’t be glossed over because it explains why the orcs and ogres are in Arathi at all.

Conquerers don’t get to claim to be peaceful settlers after they’re done attempting to conquer the place.


But onto the story. I didn’t like the ending, it did the cycle of hatred thing. And whenever I see the phrase “Cycle of Hatred” I start to feel myself cringe internally, because it seems to inevitably herald an Anduin fuelled hold hands and say draenor is free moment. And almost as inevitably it’s a contrived moment, Gey’arah changed her tune so fast I’m surprised she didn’t get whiplash.
I also find it perpetually unsettling when some town or group gets massacred and the survivors or others are portrayed as the Bad Guys for being aggrieved about it. Maybe it’s just me but it undermines the message of “Peace and Forgiveness” when it’s contemptuous of those who can’t instantly forgive and forget the horrors of war.

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First of all, let’s not forget that the original Horde of Warcraft I & II were the puppets of the warlock class and the Burning Legion, and that they were driven to do a lot of those things by bloodlust and by their monstrous leaders at the time.

Let’s also not forget that the orcs were also punished with internment in camps across the continent, supposedly with the intention of ridding them of their bloodlust, but for some reason these camps weren’t dismantled that goal had been achieved. With no foreseeable end to the Alliance Internment Act under the rule of King Terenas, that scenario would have likely ended with the death of an entire people.

When the Horde was reborn, it was a new Horde with a new ruler free from demonic bloodlust, a new political entity that could give its constituent peoples a second chance. While this Horde is guilty of some degree of colonialism, there’s no sign of the centaur or quillboar ever trying to peacefully coexist with the Horde, they tried to kill them as soon as they arrived on the shores of Durotar and stepped into the Barrens. It was kill or be killed.

As for the matter of not belonging on Azeroth at all, it’s not like they could go back to Draenor at all, which had been wrecked by a megalomaniacal leader of their people. You could shrug and say that this was their fault, but I could also point out that the fall of Stromgarde happened primarily because of Galen’s actions. He killed his own father, who was a much better king who held the nation together. Under Galen’s rule, the whole thing crumbled. If all orcs in their entirety are to blame for the actions of Ner’zhul, then all of Stromgarde is to blame for the actions of Galen.

But the most important thing I have to say about all of this is that it is wrong to expect any race or species to peacefully accept their fate and fade away into oblivion, no matter what their past crimes might have been. They are going to want to live and they are going to need homes if they’re going to accomplish that.

Underneath Thrall, in order to avoid conflict with the Alliance, they found these homes almost exclusively in the barren and undesirable corners of the world, and in the lawless places where the Alliance were incapable of keeping the peace, such as the Arathi Highlands when World of Warcraft first came out.

Their settling of Hammerfall and Go’Shek Farm was more or less built on the fact that there was no one there to stop them, these places weren’t taken from the Alliance by force as far as we know, as the narrative from Stromgarde focuses on it falling due to the actions of the Boulderfist Ogres and the Syndicate. Besides, by the time that Stromgarde was reclaimed and the dominant force in the region again, the Horde had already lived there for long enough to feasibly build their own homes and own families. Is it really right to then kick them out?

The vast majority of the population fled south with only the proud military elite remaining behind in Refuge Pointe and an isolated enclave in Stromgarde, and even they left Hammerfall and Go’Shek Farm, which would’ve been occupied and used as bases of operation by the Syndicate, Boulderfist, Witherbark and other elements if it wasn’t for the Horde claiming them.

And while there might have been conflict between the Horde and the Alliance in the region at the past, both factions have shown that they want to pursue coexistence at this point and the Horde are happy to limit themselves to the territory that they previously settled in the absence of the original inhabitants - an old internment camp and a farm to keep its population fed. It’s not like they’re asking the Stromic to share the streets of Stromgarde with them.

The relatively recent arrival of the Mag’har in the area complicates things, but the issue remains the same - it’s not like they can go back to alternate Draenor to where they belong. Just like the green-skinned orcs, they require a home on Azeroth if they’re to survive. They shouldn’t be morally compelled or expected to move en masse to Outland’s Nagrand and wait for it to crumble beneath them and send their entire race into the Twisting Nether.

They want to exist and they need somewhere to live and one old internment camp, one farm and the hills that surround them isn’t a particularly big ask, especially when they have already belonged to the Horde for twenty years due to Stromgarde’s inability to maintain law, order and control over that part of the region.

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Might makes right.

There is a strange disconnect between what we are told and what we see. The narrative often frames the orcs as being innocent and pure, and twisted and corrupted by resentful, non-conforming, evil individuals like Gul’dan.

But when we see them in-game, they are all but innocent. They have learned to answer to a violent world with violence, and are fundamentally a warrior culture, with individuals celebrating conquest and blood.

So I’d say yes and no: politically, they were puppets, but the celebration of violence and massacre of the draenei and the alliance was entirely their own choice.

Personally, however, I think that after a while one needs to argue that the orcs have a right to be in Azeroth: they have been here for generations/decades at this stage, and the younger orcs have never seen Draenor, which to them is a dead world.

Why the AU mag’har would have any claim to an already-contested land however, or why they’d want Arathi, it’s beyond me.

It feels very forced as a reason, other than fanservice related to the fame of Arathi

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All of these issues could be easily solved the moment the uninhabited areas of Kalimdor get into shape at last. The entirety of Durotar, Barrens and Desolace should be more than enough for the whole Horde to settle in, assuming they become more than deserts. All while the Alliance focuses on restoring their own territories from years of warfare, indiscriminate use of blight and so on. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like the writers are interested in actual renewal despite all the claims…

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It is a bit funny that Blizzard has to constantly ignore 90% of Azeroth’s pre-existing landmasses to keep these weird territorial disputes going. The entirety of Durotar, Desolace, Barrens, Stonetalon, Mulgore and Azshara isn’t enough?

Although I guess according to Exploring Kalimdor the Goblins made all of that incredibly polluted and a hell to live in for some reason so :person_shrugging:

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And this is the salient point of why I don’t buy into your reasoning. The moment Thrall put his posterior on the Warchief throne, the Horde did indeed change, I don’t dispute that, the New Horde as it was called.

And the moment Thrall took his green cheeks off that throne, the orcs went right back to what they were before. We have seen more of the Old Horde than we’ve ever seen of the New Horde.

Say Might Makes Right. That’s fine as a reasoning, it’s not a nice reason I grant you but it would be an honest reason. This “orcs are poor victims of circumstance it’s not their fault” narrative is completely dishonest because we’ve had four expacs dedicated to demonstrating their warmongering, violent preferences.

You’re doing the same thing as the WoW writers and telling me, it’s not like that, it’s just a few bad apples, etc. But I’ve been shown the opposite.

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Mag’har should’ve settled in Westfall, and then Westfall defects to the Horde because they’re tired of being neglected and mistreated by the Alliance. :fist:

Pretty sure Anduin fixed all Stormwinds problems in a single line in some random book somewhere, lmao

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Get out of here Golden.

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It was strictly to manufacture conflict in an area that’s known to be contested and its current state left in partial limbo, though everyone knows this anyway.

What I don’t get is why we needed Marran as a character to facilitate this conflict. Just say that there’s not enough arable land or resources to satisfy both the influx of Mag’har and the existing Stromic populations and neither want to compromise for a variety of reasons. If there can be sweeping statements in the narrative of how the existing Horde-owned lands can’t sustain the Mag’har then the same could be said about the Highlands.

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Because she’s a clean way to initiate and sever the conflict. Rather than an intangiable mob whose mindset you can’t erase as quickly or cleanly in a story.

With that said, l think we might see Marran again.

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I think part of the problem is also that Thrall didn’t stop the orcs from worshipping the Old Horde’s “monster” leaders. Or made a clear line/difference between the Old and New Horde.

Instead he named their capital after Orgrim Doomhammer, the harbor is called after Kargath Bladefist, Grommash Hellscream is a venerated hero that “saved” the orcish race.

You see the first sign of trouble this causes in Hellfire dungeon with Kargath Bladefist as end boss, the orcish questgiver tells you to never forget that Kargath was once a hero of the Horde.

100%, I hope so.

I hope she’ll have something to do once we head to the Empire of Arathor!

This is all good, but one point doesn’t make sense. What interest do the mag’har even have in settling in Arathi, a region completely surrounded by either Alliance lands or barely inhabited southern Lordaeron? They just ask to be short on foodstuffs the first moment things start getting awry.

A masterful assassin striking at the right point in an already tense situation is exactly how wars are started. And thus proving the Horde unable to keep its orcish population, even the apparently uncorrupted mag’har, away from warmongering. For the rest of the world it’s a message that such neighbours will only keep driving everyone into wars until someone goes extinct at last. And here the concentration camps come into mind again… or even Daelin’s words.

Sorry, is the assertion “If you assassinate their leader, they will go to war. This clearly shows how the Horde are warmongering monsters”?

I know the Alliance has a habit of attempted assassinations on Horde (and occasionally other Alliance) leaders, so that might be why they’re a little bit concerned about that, but generally the answer would be ‘don’t do assassinations’.

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Half of those are barren hellholes, two of which are so bleak that they are named for their desolation. Azshara and Stonetalon aren’t entirely pleasant places to live either for different reasons - the former is mostly storm-wracked cliffs and treacherous beaches while the latter is mostly jagged peaks and rocky slopes. Mulgore is the only location that could be really be considered naturally arable and hospitable.

Also, every one of those zones has had a notable Alliance presence throughout WoW’s history and half of them still have an active Alliance presence as of current lore.

These regions are so ‘not enough’ for the Horde that their inadequacy is a large part of what motivated Garrosh’s hostility towards the Alliance and bitterness towards Thrall, who settled in such inhospitable territory mostly out of a masochistic sense of penitence.

A story actually focused on making these regions habitable, even/especially with the aid of the Alliance, would be great. As long of this core Horde territory remains unpleasant to live in and lacking in all of the resources that are vital for civilisation, the Horde will have good reason to settle elsewhere and extract resources from other regions.

How many of those had violent warmongers lead the orcs and the Horde (or the Iron Horde) to do violent warmongering? The orcs are a martial and hierarchical people who respect strength and follow their leaders, unless they prove themselves too weak to lead by losing a contest of strength.

Sure, they’re prone to resolving conflict with combat even without the fel bloodlust, which makes them well-suited to violence, especially when encouraged by their leaders to indulge in such behaviour.

However, we’ve also seen on multiple occasions that when orcs don’t have a bloodthirsty warlord or warchief pushing them to commit atrocities, they are perfectly capable of living relatively harmoniously with their neighbours, provided that they are not provoked. It’s not just Thrall’s Horde - look at the Mag’har (MU & potentially AU, though claiming that might open a whole can of worms) and the Frostwolf Clan (MU & AU) and the Laughing Skull Clan (AU) as examples of this.

It’s less “orcs are naturally evil” and more “orcs are evil when those who lead them are evil.”

Starting to think there’s something in the Draenor water supply, since the Draenei fall victim to that too…