Regarding Character Age and Power Levels

So, first, let me preface this fact with something I just realized, in order to illustrate how ridiculous WoW lore can get and why you shouldn’t think too much about this.

Argus fell to the Legion 25 000 years ago. There are draenei in Azuremyst who remember Argus before it fell to the Legion and they aren’t even portrayed as ancient, middle-aged at most. One of them even asks your character if you remember Mac’Aree, making it apparent that it isn’t that unusual to have lived on Argus before Sargeras came. So, not only are Draenei capable of living atleast 25 000 years, it isn’t even considered something remarkable among them. Most likely they can live much longer, since 25 000 years ago, Velen looked middle-aged at most.

25 000 years is longer than even the troll and night elven empires existed. That is a lot of time. Such draenei could spend that time to master not only one thing, but basically almost anything. Assuming their memories don’t degenerate (and given the fact that they can still clearly remember Mac’Aree, that doesn’t seem to be a thing), they could become a Master Warrior, Mage, Hunter, Opera Singer, Driver, Doctor, Engineer etc. The draenei were also portrayed as a very advanced people, valuing wisdom, intellect and education, so this doesn’t seem like something they would avoid. So by that logic, Draenei should be the best mages, priests, warriors etc. and a single Draenei should be almost unbeatable in a duel. This draenei could be an expert in everything people on Azeroth know.

These people were defeated by a bunch of orcs shouting Lok’tar Ogar, who barely discovered metalworking. Said orcs had shorter lives than even humans and before uniting under a warchief were in perpetual war with each other, to such an extent that borders between the different clans became scorched wastelands. And that was before they even started sipping demon blood.

Now, time flows differently in the Twisting nether. Turalyon and Alleria were missing for 22 years, which they spent fighting alongside the Lightforged Draenei aboard Xenedar. But this was the length of time that passed on Azeroth. According to their short story, during these 22 years, 1 000 years passed for them. Turalyon was only still alive because he was granted immortality, Alleria because elves live for thousands of years. If we take this as an average, then that means that for 1 year on Azeroth, roughly 45 and a half years pass in the Twisting Nether (1000/22=45,45 repeating).

The Lightforged were recruited from the Draenei who were aboard the Xenedar, the second ship that split from the main one after the draenei evacuated Argies. So, around 25 000 years ago, since that time they were fighting demons. Except as we know from that short story, time went differently for them, so they actually spent much longer fighting demons. One year on Azeroth was roughly 45 and a half years for them. So, 25 000 * 45,46 = 1 136 500 years.

The original lightforged draenei spent over one million years fighting the Burning Legion. They were aboard a military ship, contending with horrors beyond imagination. Perfecting their techniques, tactics and strategies. Visiting worlds other races never even heard of. Their life was constant war, battling legion across all the worlds they invaded and rescuing the survivors.

One of those lightforged is Archmage Y’mera. She is old enough to have studied at Archimonde’s Conservatory of the Arcane on Argus before Legion invaded. She spent over a million azerothian years as a lightforged draenei, part of the Army of the Light. She mastered arcane magic before people like Magistrix Elisandre and Queen Azshara were even born.

Lets say that Azshara is 12 000 years old. She was said to be the most powerful mortal mage on Azeroth, I think. Yet she is a noob compared to Y’mera. Maybe there is a Level Cap in place and Azshara had time to XP grind all the way to 60. But Y’mera has been playing since The Lost Vikings pre-alpha, while Azshara is a BfA newbie. Queen Azshara is obviously a keyboard-turner, clicks on rend, stands in fire and wipes in LFR, while Archmage Y’mera is a Rank 14 Grand Marshal Arena Champion World First Mythic Raider, since before those things even existed.

Archmage Y’mera spent over a million years getting better at magic, to archieve her goal of one day retaking her homeworld. She visited countless worlds Azshara didn’t even dream of, learned their secrets, as her dialogue suggests she is willing to get any advantage she can get against the Burning Legion. She spent all that time fighting and defeating some of the strongest beings in existence. Archmage Y’mera might have been doing this longer than Azeroth even existed. Archmage Y’mera stared into the abyss and the abyss dropped some vendor trash.

Now, maybe it’s lower and in reality she only spent like 500 000 years “studying the blade”. The other lightforged are in a similar category. You can even play as one of them. They spent this ridiculous amount of time in constant war, scouring the universe and fighting in a war against the legion.

Now lets ignore this for a moment. Lets talk about how overpowered Jaina and Thrall are and how Varian is a noob compared to Tyrande, who is atleast 10 000 years old. I feel there should be something made clear.

Jaina is 40 years old, in the prime of her life. She had been studying magic in Dalaran since she was about 8 years old and it was under the tutelage of Antonidas, the greatest human archmage at the time, who selected her because she showed amazing talent for magic. She is a prodigy who has been doing this for a very long time in human terms.

As for Varian… he was the son of a king, taught to rule from a young age. This education surely included the art of war, most likely by mentor, Anduin Lothar, the Lion of Azeroth, the greatest human general and later King Terenas. What little we have of his post-WC2, pre-WoW personality, he was kinda like Anduin is now, presented as sensible and wise beyond his years. He was all about supporting Terenas. He kept membership of the alliance after everyone else left and agreed to pay the taxes needed to fund the orc interment camps, despite the fact that Stormwind was being rebuilt and could use the money. He argued that sparing the orcs is the most humane option and kept his cool and reason under pressure from nobles and fellow monarchs. He had to lead a rebuilding nation while it was still threatened by remnants of the Horde still residing in Blackrock Spire. He spent a long time among orcs and knows them very well, since he is the anti-Thrall.

Thrall is younger than Varian and Jaina. Since young age, he has been trained and took part in gladiatorial combat. He has been educated in a variety of fields including warfare by his master Blackmoore, who wanted to turn him into his own personal warlord. He was a champion at arena fighting, defeating enemies such as ogres handily despite being very young. After escaping, he learned Shamanism remarkably quickly and by the time he returned to Durnholde to rescue Taretha, he was able to summon an earthquake strong enough to devastate Durnholde. He rose to lead the newly reunited Horde and under his leadership, the orcs were finally able to become a force to be reckoned with. This was largely due to his education under Blackmoore and his deep knowledge of their enemies and how they think.

Were Warcraft a human-centric fantasy setting, with all the non-human races being equivalent to orcs at most, I doubt anyone would have trouble believing that Jaina, Khadgar and Varian are very competent and probably even at the top of their fields. Maybe people would complain about Jaina and Khadgar being too powerful compared to other mages, that Varian is too much like a shounen anime protagonist and that Thrall is hogging the spotlight too much.

The important question is: how are you supposed to keep these characters relevant in a world where Archmage Y’mera exists? Or even humans and orcs for that matter. Draenei are better paladins and were doing it long before humans even thought of the concept, elves live for thousands of years. This is one of the problems with Blizzards writting. It seems like everything has to be huge at all costs, like in a bad comic book. Hence Draenei, Gnomes, Blood Elves and Night Elves losing 90% of their people during their respective apocalyptic events. This is made to add stakes to the story and make it seem more tragic, significant and interesting, but in the end it mostly serves to cheapen it, just like Turalyon and Alleria fighting the legion for a millenium.

Point is, in human terms, Jaina is a magical prodigy and foremost expert in magic, Varian is a Warrior King, Thrall is a young Warlord and skilled warrior. They are exemplars and heroes of their people. They are meant to stand toe-to-toe with heroes of other races, including Sylvanas, the ranger-general of Quel’thalas, Tyrande, High Priestess of Elune and others. Maybe the average elf is much stronger, skilled and smarter than the average human, but at this narrative level, I think the intention is for these characters to be comparable to each other and fights and conflicts between them be able to cause tension. Not, say, Sylvanas automatically owning Varian, because she had 1000 years to master combat.

And who says that a human hero couldn’t become more powerful than a member of a longer-living race? The underdog story is always a popular one. Nathanos became a Ranger Lord, while many elves didn’t (and lets ignore the implication that Sylvanas gave him the title because he was her boyfriend). And for one Jaina and Nathanos, there might be ten comparable elves in history of Quel’thalas. To me, Jaina possibly being the most powerful mage alive, even stronger than the remaining Blood Elf magisters and highborne who spent their entire lives in one city isn’t necessarily a problem. Jaina being as powerful as she is shown currently is another thing entirely and it is a problem.

If we focus too much on lifespans and how much a person can learn and master during that time, humans and orcs wouldnt have relevant heroes and would serve only as cannon fodder and someone who supplies the menial workers for the crystal mines on Argus or something.

I suggest we don’t dwell too much on what would logically happen and who should be more powerful and experienced than some other character due to how much older they are, but on what makes the best story and the problems with the narrative and problems with the portrayal of the different races (like how Tyrande and Malfurion combined had trouble with Valkyr-enhanced Nathanos and how Jaina had some ridiculously-corny floating ship).

Because otherwise it leads to a future dominated by glowing octopus people and I doubt anyone wants to see that :stuck_out_tongue:

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10/10 Pure gold.

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I just wouldn’t share in that assumption. And remembering Mac’Aree isn’t an argument against that. The process of forgetting isn’t a first in, first out process, that throws older stuff out first. Old people, even demented ones, don’t have more problems remembering their childhoods than other time periods. A “use it or lose it” model that needs you to access/refresh/rewrite memories regularly is probably a bit closer to the truth, but it’s more complicated than that.

So… no,I don’t think that believing one remembers Mac’Aree is an argument that shows that Draenei don’t forget what happens over millenia. It just shows that they don’t forget everything. That is still fully compatible with them forgetting knowledge they don’t use. And as long as that’s the case, it’s easy to see why keeping a working knowledge of mutlible professions up would take a lot of dedication from the individual. And dedication is not a matter of age.

If you ask a carpenter, who learned the craft 50 years ago, and hasn’t worked in the field since, neither professionally nor privately, you wouldn’t expect him to be able to do much with it. And that’s what I’ll assume for long-lived species, too, until proven otherwise.

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Really, age is an issue in most fantasy (or Si-Fi) settings, that can hardly be explained logically.

Not only when it comes to named hero characters, but also to the general masses.

How long does it take an human mage to become archmage? Lets sad mid 40 or in his 50´s.

Thats almost youth-age for an Elf, with the majority of elven (or draenei etc.) casters beyond this age. Yet only very few of them are at an archmages skilllevel themself, even through they had far more time. And we have no reason to suspect that elves are so much slower than humans to learn magic.

Same goes for physical tasks. At what age is an average human at its peak? His 20´s to 30´s, probably. By that point, he already has become a master-fencer, a veteran hunter or a world class acrobat. By that same age, elves almost still count as infants, with many elven probably several hundrets of years old, still serving as average guards, soldiers or simple archers. Again, we have no reason to suspect elves learn that much slower. You just cant explain it.

Besides that, we dont really know how gaining „power levels“ in Azeroth works. It obviously has to be more than just time = skill.

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In most settings this is solved in a completely different way.

There is, as you yourself mentioned, the Archmage, but in other settings there is another level above that, an even more powerful level, which is not even accessible to humans because they die too early and don’t have enough magical knowledge to even make it accessible.

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Titan creature degenerates > all

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See, I agree with you. I was originally planning on starting with a list of reasons why a one thousand year old elf wouldn’t necessarily be absolutely superior compared to a human (theres a limit to how much a brain can remember, memories fade, blur together, one day you will hit your peak, lack of information, techniques change and grow obsolete etc.), but the post already went for way too long and it seemed like it doesn’t fit the post anyway.

That is why I selected the most ridiculous example I could think of to show how ridiculous it would be if we took it seriously. The lightforged are not only the ones with the most years under their belt out of the playable races, they are also the ones waging eternal war against some of the most powerful beings in the universe. If there was someone likely to stay in shape, it would be them.

But, regarding that comment and just for the sake of argument… this is Blizzard.

Illidan spent 10 000 years in solitary confinement, yet when he was freed, not only was he not an absolute wreck, he recognized Tyrande and was ready to fight at a moments notice, like he was last fighting demons yesterday. You also go through several of his memories in Legion.

Jarod Shadowsong has been in retirement and living in peace for tens of thousands of years, only returning once his wife passed away, yet he is still a great fighter.

Shandris remembers some random High Elf turned Dark Ranger, who she fought alongside during the Troll Wars, apparently, enough to know that she wouldn’t appreciate Keeshan’s human potential.

Lorash is still so angry about his people’s exile thousands of years ago and his experiences before Quel’thalas was founded that he seems obsessed with eliminating Malfurion.

Velen recognizes the city he was last in 25 000 years ago, remembers how to operate its machinery, is still able to guide the player character through it, offfer a pretty detailed history and commentary on the visions, including exactly which demon lords attacked and remembers where he kept some things and also what sports the draenei were playing. He also recognizes the man who covered their retreat 25 000 years ago and some other random people.

Archmage Y’mera recognizes a random custodian, who apparently last saw her when she was kicked out of the Conservatory (and she remembers him from “before” he was turned into a robot, so she couldn’t have met him after Argus fell).

For something that happened thousands of years ago and in Y’mera’s case, potentially hundreds of thousands, if not a million years ago, they have a pretty good memory. Just like Illidan seems in a remarkably good shape. Theres more, but I think this is enough so far.

I mean, combined with everything else in the lore, I think theres plenty of evidence that they just don’t care about stuff like this.

I don’t actually see the point in arguing about this. Even if we somehow came to the conclusion that what you say is absolutely how it is, it only reinforces the point of this thread. Which is that automatically saying that because Varian was 40 something years old and Tyrande is 10 000 years old means Varian is an inexperienced and incompetent child compared to Tyrande really isn’t the way to go. And that caring too much about the ridiculous lifespans on some races only makes the setting fall apart even more than it already does. Theres plenty of other factors to consider. Including the narative one, where making human heroes pointless isn’t good for the story. Who knows, maybe Tyrande has 10 000 years of military experience and remembers everything important, but Varian has a lot more experience with and understanding of orcs than Tyrande does. That could be one argument for why he was leading the war and not Tyrande.

This isn’t me defending the A Little Patience scenario. I found it to be the worst attempt at telling a fable I have seen so far.

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Sure. But your point in the end was looking at what makes the best story, wasn’t it? Well, having an explanation for how things work that kind of makes sense, and that leads to long-lives races having mental disadvantages that prevent them from totally dominating short-lived races seems to be much more in service of an immersive story than handwaving the question away and telling us not to look behind the curtain. Can Blizzard pull it off? Of course not, but we’re not talking to Blizzard, and not pulling it off is still Blizzard’s failure, that can and should be treated as such.

“Why can humans keep up with a 30k year old draenei” isn’t an unsolvable riddle. It’s just another plot hole. It can be explained. But it isn’t.

But is this level really that much more powerful? Im not talking about some background text, but the actual presentation in games and storys. And thats where it once more falls apart.

In actual storys, the 30-something-year-old imperial greatswords are more or less equal to the several hundred year old swordmasters of hoeth. (Warhammer Fantasy)

The ~ mid twenties N7 Dudes in Mass Effect are somewhat equal to Asari Commandos or Krogan Warriors, who both have hundreds of years under their belt.

Beside future-telling, there is little difference between a random space marine librarian and an eldar farseer, despite the fluff text telling us there should be. (40k)

You might take any other setting and will probably fing similiar things. Besides that, isnt that “next level of power” usually still pretty rare among long-lived races? Its not the norm that magical elven nations are full of super-archmages. No, their 300+ average Mage doesnt seem that much more skilled then your average mid 20 human mage. Your average 200 years old elven spearmen is at best as good as a human fighter at peak physical performance at 30, if at all. And thats where the logic of “Lore tells you X but actual story doesnt resemble this at all” falls apart again.

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yes, indeed.

I think we misunderstood each other somewhat? Basically, at this point, I think that the only think I can really respond with is that we most likely agree with each other.

Maybe the misunderstanding occured due to my suggestion not to care so much about this age thing? I didn’t mean that theres no way it can work and we shouldn’t try to find ways it could work, just that the way blizzard is presenting it doesn’t work and following it to its logical conclusion leads only to terrible story and world building. Then again, I guess that much is obvious to a lot of people.

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Okay, might be it was that… but, to be fair “If you think about it, you make it worse” is my basic assumption about WoW’s story… Which, of course, doesn’t help in a forum dedicated to discussing the story.

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the problem here is that people assume age = experience you could be millions of years old and only fought a single battle age does not equal wisdom or experience nor does it compensate for a lack of talant a prodigy will always beat a hard worker

heck in a few years anduin might surpass velen his potential is greater then our beloved old goat jaina is that prodigy her potential is something that draw the attention of the prince of quel’thalas unfortunately for him she was already taken

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