Remove Depletion Completely

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
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I don’t usually post on forums… it’s not my thing. Today has been first time in 15 years of playing I’ve ever felt the need to post here. But having read the Feedback: Class Sets in The War Within Season 2 (awful btw) and now the latest Undermine(d) Development Notes

I figured I’d engage instead of just complaining for change. So I dunno if this is the place for this. But seeing as changes to do with key depletion are coming I wanted to share my thoughts. I don’t even know if this place gets read or is used for feedback. But I’ll shoot my shot I guess.

New account wide achievement: The War Within Keystone Legend: Season Two

  • Requirement: Attain a Mythic+ Rating of at least 2850 during The War Within Season Two.
  • Reward: Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season.
  • Keystone from the weekly vault will not decay below level 12 with this achievement.
  • Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi.

Does not go far enough.

2850 score for a short-lived no-deplete bonus is pointless and seems to benefit very few other than premades and for a very short time.

It’s somewhat welcome… but not really… it’s such a small consolation prize it’s not even worth the time taken to implement it.

The changes suggested simply do not go far enough.

  • Firstly on insist on completing a key out of time.
  • Secondly cutting off at +12.

This might be great for all of a couple of days and then you’re back to the -fest that is M+ today.

The system might well be fine if you’re premade. But seems to have little benefit to people that run pug groups or join pug groups.

Just remove bricking full-stop past +10 across the board or whatever the equivalent score that is. You should be rewarded for playing and wanting to play. Not punished because you dared to try harder or do better. You should be encouraged to push, if that’s your thing, not discouraged.

Foreword
Sorry if this ends up sounding repetitive or ranty, but it’s an amalgamation of several discussions I’ve had with people on various platforms about the state of M+. Edited a bit and parsed through several diff/merges. But I’ve tried to rephrase as much as I can to avoid that.

The issues as I see it:
Failing a key already incurs a large enough punishment. Through reduced crests, repair bills, consumable costs, low value rewards, time lost, etc etc. Those are the stakes. The depletion is just salt in the wound. All your practise and hard work has now been shelved until next time you acquire the same key by RNG.

The fact that the key holder has to waste more time to get it back up. Some do, some will. But many simply don’t or won’t, they’ll just be added to the hundreds of players queuing and competing for a spot in someone else’s key and as the week gets later and later there eventually becomes less groups to sign up for.

This only compounds several issues whether it’s the meta issue or the queue issue:

  • People are already taking classes that will maximise their success rate,

  • Add to that the huge time spent in the M+ that’s wasted upon failure

  • Add to that the time waste that comes with re-upping your key, it’s not respectful to a player’s time and it shouldn’t be necessary. So they’re just another player to compete with in the Dornogal queue simulator - instead of being one of the many that could be hosting a group.

  • Add to that the new key will be random (not the dungeon you’ve spent the last x amount of time in and practising) and could in theory be completely useless and not one you need.

  • Add to that the reroll if you have bad luck - (potentially multiple times)

Why take the risk? Where’s the incentive for people to take a gamble? Even if the gamble high score non-meta or anything relatively unknown. Your time and practise are not rewarded for any of this.

This doesn’t happen to Mythic raids, you aren’t made to replay HC just to reattempt a Mythic boss and being straight up denied progress on a boss after X wipes hasn’t been seen in a raid since like… MoP? So why is it considered normal for M+? Raiders can chain bosses for hours and hours, days and days until they get the outcome they desire. But M+ers are made to jump through hoops to get back to where they started.

The key system as a whole doesn’t allow for mistakes and does not reward learning from mistakes or practise because so long as you can only acquire a single key you get ONE shot where the outcome of failure means you must play something either beneath your current level or something you may not need until fate to gives you another shot, or queue simulator for another 3 hours. Instead of cementing the knowledge gained, you’re left forgetting the lessons that could have been learnt.

Mistakes happen, and that’s fine. Everyone is trying to push their limits. Sometimes they are seeing the damage profiles for the first time and learning how to navigate mechanics that didn’t that hurt before but now do, is it magic or physical, packs that you can skip, double or triple and scrape those extra few seconds, but the punishment is already the time you just lost among the other’s I’ve mentioned above.

Removing depletion completely:

Could encourage groups stick around more often, knowing they’re fully capable, but just missed one vital kick or had one death too many and will nail it next go around. In my experience so many high keys you can be easily OoT by 10-15-30s due to one or two extra very easily preventable deaths that you can learn from and do better next time.

Could encourage using the time to make an attempt over sitting in a queue waiting for whatever the patch’s Exodia comp to sign-up.

Would encourage learning, practise and perseverance.

But the system simply is not fit for purpose. You get one shot or you must go -1 and roll the dice at getting a random +1 back. Oh and it could be one you don’t need. Great!

The system as a whole is outdated, unrewarding and disrespectful towards player time.

My Suggestion:

  • Put keys into spellbook after +10, like dungeon TPs.

  • The spellbook version increases in level by +1 independently for each dungeon you complete in time.

  • The spellbook version does not deplete.

  • The spellbook version cannot be downgraded in any way that encourages boosting and is practically locked without beating the timer.

  • Replace the brick with a simple timer-long party-wide CD on attempted dungeons (again independently, but nothing too oppressive).

  • Party members should consent to the CD, much like a raid lockout.

  • The CD should reset upon completion of the key or any other M+ instance (on an individual player basis).

  • Players can still receive invites above their current spellbook max but must be grouped with a player with the spellbook keystone they intend to do, much like it is today with keystones.

It would be both rewarding towards practise, more respectful towards player time, while encouraging completion. If you complete everyone’s CD is reset.

You can practise one or multiple dungeons that you need being restricted only by the CD and that in itself is more rewarding than rerolling a key or being subjected to queues for hours on end.

It could encourage reattempts. If you’re out by 30s well… the group clearly capable with a few less deaths or a tweak to the route, move a CD here or there… why not go again immediately with the same group.

If you’re out (or gonna be out) by a mile no big deal. The CD is either already off or you can complete it to reset everyone’s CD.

Everyone has learn something and you can take experience with you when you try again whether that be immediately or at the very least in 30-40m time or whatever.

All these people competing in queue simulator can now instead choose to host and know they can play for something that they need and will be beneficial to them, especially if you’re a non-meta class that get invites 1 in every 50+ signups.

Players should be encouraged and rewarded for their time, for their practise, for playing the game and not punished or beaten into accepting and out of date system that is no longer fit for purpose.

The Keystone:
I can see maybe a use for the proposed system (and continuation of the current) with keystones capping +10 or whatever.

This would permit people to run their weeklies.

But I’m biased because I’d not fill a vault with Myth track when 14s+ are my only option and currently I’m queueing for 5+ hours per invite (that might not even complete).

Final Words:
Mythic+ is on its last legs. The community is worse than it’s ever been, the queues are worse than they’ve ever been including DF S2-S3 Exodia (somehow), hostility and toxicity has been getting worse and worse, the meta-slavery because of fear of failure has been breeding resentment and driving people away. All-round it has gradually brought out the worst in people. The system needs reform. It needs to be better. It needs to encourage players not drive them away.

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We might need som additional clarification from Blizzard, but the way I interpret the info, it seems that anyone below 2850 will be stuck in the old system, with depletes. Currently there are less than 3% of the playerbase who has this rating, so this change has zero benefit for the vast majority of people doing M+.

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You could well be correct. And hell I hope that you are.

Either way potential confusion aside the system needs reform.

Depletion should not be dependent on your teammates to complete the content. It should not exist at all.

  • Needless punishment on top of punishment needs to go.
  • Time waste nonsense need to go.
  • The key randomness needs to go.
  • The key rerolling needs to go.
  • Depletion needs to go.

If that means that the 0.1% at 3.5k can suddenly attain 4k. And some random well-skilled premades can suddenly achieve 3.5k… So be it. Power to them.

Me… I just want to be able play the game again instead of sitting in the 3060-3100 deadzone. Where group after group are meta-paralysed because of the fear of depletion and the reroll lottery.

But you’re correct. It does need clarification and it’s been interpreted in several different ways among the friends I’ve spoken to about it.

My interpretation is:

From 2-12 your key is safe from depletion. Account-Wide after attainment. At least provided the content is completed OoT.

But reality is the changes needed are bigger than just that. It needs no upper limit. It needs repeatability, replayability and the potential to learn from mistakes without having to wait several hours sometimes days before getting another shot because depletion, reroll lottery.

And the suggestion doesn’t benefit just those already high. It lifts more people up that actually have the desire to push… +10s across the board is around what? mid-2600. That’s a lot more than the 3% at 2850+ and improve engagement and encourage people to push beyond that rather than deter them. It allows people to push for what they want and what they need, it encourages people to host groups over queueing, to use the time they’d spend hosting to attempt the content rather than insta-decline because they’re not an Exodia body part.

I’d rather see people lifted up and tap out because they feel content has become beyond their ability than see them tap out because the system is boring, timewasting, unrewarding and discouraging. Because those players might one day not come back. And the game needs more players not less. Otherwise we’re all just playing a game in managed decline.

Just like I’d rather see the underperforming classes buffed over the mid-season nerfs to meta classes that do nothing but pull the ladder up.

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To be honest they don’t need to do anything elaborate. Just admit defeat and remove challenger’s peril.

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I think you’re wrong, buddy. The writing on the wall has been there a while back in DF with aug release and the exodia meta. While I agree that Peril has been absolute garbage it is far from the largest issue the game is having that dates back farther than that. It addresses little for the queues, the host, the meta, the paralysis of groups, yada yada.

Removing peril is great. Now one wipe doesn’t insta-brick a key… but people will leave anyway and were leaving after one wipe in DF 1-4 too.

But also guess what? That only benefits people that are able to play and get invites in the first place. It’s does nothing for 90% of anything I’ve said and will do little to provide long-term engagement and enthusiasm for the game mode. Maybe what I have suggested wouldn’t either. But I’m sure removing depletion would.

And look I don’t know what your main is and what score it is. But as someone who has played hunter you will know what the queue situation is like for them. If not give pushing a try and I guarantee you that will become a problem long before Peril does. No one is struggling with peril at 1300 or even the first 26-2700, but they will eventually absolutely.

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This was my main in early DF. My current main is ret paladin at 2550 score or thereabouts.

I’ve seen many keys where peril resulted in a deplete.

I use my hunter on the forums as it has a good trust level, I don’t hide anything.

This season has been miserable for everyone and removal of peril is less about making huge changes and more about blizzard showing willingness to make improvements

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I didn’t mean to imply that you were hiding anything. I completely understand that.

I don’t use the forums aside to make this post and an accidental reply up there. I just know that the profile people use often isn’t a main even though mine is.

Without being rude… So please don’t take this the wrong way. This sounds very much like a you issue, whether it’s the players you play with: remade or pugging or the classes you’re taking or whatever… Getting burnt by peril might happen once or twice at a 2500 level here and there. But regularly at that level… that’s a more localised problem with the groups you’re choosing to go with or you or even just one vital player role within the group, than a systemic one with the affix. You could argue that that much pressure on a tank or healer performance is a systemic problem and I’d 100% agree with you. DPS have little to no agency in M+. But I digress.

Even when it was relevant content (people actually needed KSM for their curio) it wasn’t a huge issue. It’s especially shouldn’t be now that the average ilvl has increased by 15-20 levels. Did it take like 8 attempts to get my first SoB +10. Hell yeah… No shame there… But only a couple of them were out by a meaningful amount and everyone was very much undergeared, unaware and unprepared at the time and they went about as well as you could expect of a pug. The difficulty curve didn’t really start kicking in until then so everyone was learning. That process could have been quicker with no depletion but alas it’s not how Blizzard wants us to play.

But in any case. I do get you. It is a bad affix and should never have made it live. And removing it should absolutely be a priority. Like I said we should be encouraging players not deterring them, punishing less and providing systems that allow players to learn and improve, providing agency and not taking it away. But it is unfortunately far from the only change needed.

Even with peril removing the depletion gives people more than one shot. They can reset, rest, recoup, and try again but this time learn from mistakes, improve and cut down on those extra deaths. Some people learn slower than others, some people make mistakes or some people just get bad rng. Some people would really benefit from that and it sounds like you’re one of them, again not in a bad way. I know I would too. I’ve missed several +14s by that amount. But I also know that it was far from the affix’s fault there were plenty of deaths that were avoidable my own included in that tally. But that’s a +14 that’s kinda expected as a pug only player in pug groups.

By looking at your score during DF and with the changes in key difficulty etc. You’re about 300 score off of where you were at in DF and I’m about 300 score off where I was in DF. So perhaps we’re both where we should be. But I wouldn’t know because the queue simulator the game has become. Two +14 invites in like 2+ weeks. 1 invite per week. The problem I take issue with is the depletion does not allow people to learn from mistakes and improve, or even to play over perma-queue, among a myriad of other things I’ve said.

I agree with what you say about displaying a willingness to make changes. However I’m kinda tired of these small bait changes that happen far too late and often only address the bare minimum of peoples’ gripes and complaints. Only for them to forget a patch later and do the same thing, or an expac later i.e. re-homogenising borrowed power one expansion after SL that we’re seeing come back for 11.2.

I wanna see them make the game that players want to play and encourages players to play not this constant cycle of making small concessions whenever they burn through the goodwill the playerbase has built up over a period of time.

Because it’s genuinely just one step forward, two steps back every single time at this point.

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I agree the removing depletion would solve more problems than it causes.

I would go further and remove keys entirely, using a delve like system to select the key level instead.

At the start of the expansion me and my group wanted to go a lot further than we did. However over time frustration with the selection of dungeons, the peril affix, and the changes to tanking have put off most of us from pushing and even logging more recently, since the effort required to push isn’t really justified anymore, a shame really. It doesn’t matter if the affix is trivial now, as the damage is already done.

With regards to blizzard reverting good decisions. This I have some sympathy with them as they have a fractured audience with competing and often conflicting objectives.

World players want different progression paths from raiders who want different paths from pvp and in many cases there are subdivisions within the pillars with equally conflicting objectives.

All of this however doesn’t forgive the “minimum possible” attitude to change this season.

Players aren’t happy and you have tons of feedback, please do something whatever form that something takes, to alleviate the many problems faced in the game. Games are meant to be fun.

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Yes. The delve system they already have is not far off what I’d like to see. The spellbook thing was just an example of how to execute it. But the delve system is a much better way of describing it. I take issue only in that the difficulty can be selected. The last thing we need is for boosting to be made easier. Especially when you’d have every dungeon at your fingertips. People want their curio and I get that. But boosting as whole ruins the experience of 4 other players. So I do think having it locked at a player’s level is ideal, with a milestone at 10 or whatever for weekly purposes.

I agree with everything you’ve said though. The tank changes and furthermore the awful situation healers have been put in consequently has been brutal for engagement. I’ve had a lot of friends that I’d typically duo/trio with step away for that reason.

And yes you’re completely correct in that it has driven players away earlier than it perhaps otherwise would have. An issue that I had completely not considered or taken into account. So I appreciate where you’re coming from now, more so.

They do, yes. They have a wide audience of people to cater to. But I don’t think that absolves them really… Multiple game modes have been left to fester with little to show for it. Delves are a great addition that a cater to the casual audience that is often forgotten about and it’s a great leap I’m sure for those that enjoy that. But in the same vein PvP has been left rotting for a while now. These leaps are always coming at a cost when they simply shouldn’t.

Outside of raiding, M+ probably saw the most hands on changes between the expacs. However I’d say, and even that has little to show for. Many changes have actively made it a worse game-mode i.e Peril. And has driven players away. Glaring ill though out issues have arisen at several points during S1 that have gone unaddressed all while not doing the one thing players have been begging for for quite some time and arguably the quickest and easiest to implement. Removing depletion.

And I do have sympathy. But it’s very much a situation where they only have themselves to blame for failing to listen to community feedback over and over again or for biting more than they can chew. When reality is as a billion-dollar company, they have the resources, they have the time. It’s about allocation, priorities and most of all respecting the people that continue to allow them to succeed by investing their time and money into the world they have created and the devs, designers, artists that have made it happen.

I think TWW had such a strong start, it felt fresh, exciting and what I thought would be a huge course correct in the direction of end-game content. That lasted until the 2nd week of S1, when it was already starting to feel like week 10 of DF S2 or S3.

I understand where you’re coming from now and I respect that completely and I do agree, I never disagreed tbh aside from not needing elaborate changes.

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This is blizzard’s staple.
Whenever there is a problem with obvious solution, they will never implement it.
Instead they will make some convoluted half-assed ‘fix’.

In this case their solution is even worse than usual.
That achievement is completed only by very few players, which means vast majority of the population will never get the benefit. The people who actually get the achievement do not stop at 12, so it quickly becomes obsolete for them.
This ‘solution’ helps noone.

Key depletion needs to go, period.
At the end of the key you should be presented let’s say with 3 choices of dungeon.
Timer needs to stay though.

I do not understand why cutoff for gear in m+ is at 10, but cutoff for crests is at 12.
Keys above 10 were supposed to be for bragging right only and for people who want to push to their limits. Making myth track gear harder to obtain was big mistake.
This is another example of their stubbornness and ignoring feedback.