Remove Tyrannical and Fortified

Title.

Tyrannical and Fortified are the two level 2 M+ affixes as it is in Battle for Azeroth, and, they suck. Due do the nature of M+ itself already being a scaling content, having affixes that do nothing but make mobs or bosses take longer to kill and do more damage it’s overkilling.

Since the two affixes are just number increases, they are boring and don’t promote a lot of change to the way you play, so the solution Blizzard thought to make them feel less bland was to put the two in a alternate rotation of each other, so if one week is Fortified, next is Tyrannical, the cycle goes on, those two affixes are never combined in the same week, and they are never absent.

The idea was that if they alternate that way, you would play dungeons differently each week, adapting your plan depending if the mobs or the bosses are tougher than usual. In practice, it’s just the strategy that changes, because the gameplay is the same, bosses will just take forever to kill in Tyrannical weeks, or mobs that do randomly targeted abilities will one shot people without counterplay more oftenly in fortified weeks. You don’t really feel you are playing differently when dealing with these affixes, unlike other regular affixes like bursting, explosive, grievous, volcanic or sanguine.

Another thing that is problematic about the two affixes alternating between weeks is the fact they aren’t balanced compared to one another at all, to put it straight, Tyrannical weeks are substantially harder than fortified weeks, and even Dungeons with the most trash like Freehold, Motherlode and Junkyard are still harder in Tyrannical than they are in Fortified. If you’re doubting me, just take a lot at the M+ leaderbords.

https://www.wowprogress.com/mythic_plus/

Of the top 100 highest pushed keys, only two of them are from Tyrannical weeks. “But you’re talking about just the high end”. No i’m not, you can keep going down on the list to lower keys, and the pattern will be the same, the overwhelming majority of keys timed out are Fortified, Tyrannical only stop being problematic on really low keys, but on those keys, things become so simple and easy that even mechanics start to become irrelevant, and real talk, Blizzard don’t balance M+ based on lower level keys, we have to think at least on 15s when talking about M+ balancing.

Another issue is more centered around BfA dungeon design than the Tyrannical affix itself, some boss fights get worse the longer the fight extends, like Yazma and Machinist Garden, while others like the Aerial Unit in Junkyard are broken up by it, and i’m not talking about phases, i’m talking about fights overextending too much due to the 40% health increase. I hope Blizzard learns from their errors regarding boss design and Tyrannical in this expansion and improve in Shadowlands.

Talking about Shadowlands, it seems little is changing regarding Tyrannical and Fortified in the next expansion, only that Boss minions no longer get a 40% Health increase, meaning that adds should be easier to kill in boss fights, a step in the right direction but perhaps a step too small.

I have some suggestions and ideas on how the problems regarding these affixes can be addressed and i’m open for criticism and other ideas from players more experienced and better on M+ than i am, but here’s what i thought:

  • A more extreme solution: Just get rid of the two affixes as the title suggests, compensate this by making the health and damage scaling higher and put other affixes in the level 2 tier. This would fix any difficult gap that comes from the alternation of the affixes between weeks, but it would make keys less variable as less affix combinations would be possible while trash and bosses wouldn’t variate in strength between weeks.

  • A more simplistic solution: Nerf or tweak the Tyrannical numbers, 40% health increase makes fights take way too long and depending on the way the fight is designed, it can break it. Dropping it to 25 or 30% would be a great improvement. The 15% damage increase has mixed effects, either it makes little difference since a lot of boss mechanics already one shot people depending on how high the key is without the damage increase, or the key is too ow for it to make a difference anyway. On the other hand there are some bosses with mechanics designed to put stress in the healer and i can see that a buff to the increased damage effect can get out of hand and make the affix even worse than it already is, Kragmaw Tantrum and pretty much all of the single targeted heavy damage abilities from King’s Rest bosses comes to mind. Either keep the damage increase 15% and design bosses in a way the damage increase from the affix feel balanced and meaningful, or buff it while lowering boss damage in general.

  • A more complex one: Change the way affixes vary in weeks, so Tyrannical and Fortified aren’t alternating between each other and aren’t guaranteed every week, instead you can have a weeks without them so you can have more variation and one less bland and boring affix to deal with.

Any feedback or ideas, post it bellow. I’m not a native English speaker, so i do apologize for grammar and spelling errors, I’m slowly learning the language and writing long texts and phrases is still a complicated task for me. Anyways, hope this thread produces better ideas than mine and the feedback is useful for the devs.

13 Likes

Yes, tyrannical especially sucks, sadly blizzard doesn’t really care for now.

Hopefully they’ll come up with something else in shadowlands.

5 Likes

Points well made.

For comparison, the highest tyrannical shrine = 25, fortified = 28 (3)
Siege of boralus tyrannical=25, fortified = 28 (3)

And as the OP said, you’ll see this all the way down the line in both dungeons and players.

As a concept it needs removing or changing. Or (dare I say it, the scoring system needs to award more for tyrannical keys!)

6 Likes

The big problem with Tyrannical is that it isn’t fun. Fortified trash still dies in a reasonable time, but some tyrannical bosses just go on for too long while not being a challenge. They become boring. Attrition isn’t really a thing in dungeon bosses, so having them go on for long just makes them boring.

4 Likes

You make some good points. I actually like Tyrannical/Fortified for sub 10 keys.

When mythic + was first introduced, it felt like a massive jump between 0 and +2. This time around, we only really had to deal with a difficulty jump of the trash or the boss each week and it opened players eyes to some of the mechanics they had previously been able to ignore.

There comes a point however, when the differential becomes too much. I’d like to see them continue with the system but flatten the curve out at a point. As you’ve said 4 minute boss fights are not fun.

The value in the affixes for me is that if forces players to focus on mechanics that are trivialised.

I don’t enjoy Tyrannical, some bosses can take longer than a raid boss fight.

6 Likes

What do you mean? Lower than +10 keys didnt have tyrannical and fortified and a jump between them was very minimal. When we started out in Legion +2 was basically the same as a 0.

I personally don’t see the point of these two affixes. Every other affix does something new to change the feel of the run, while these two basically do the same thing that the higher keys do, aka buff HP and damage of bosses/trash. Kinda pointless in my opinion.

7 Likes

They need to change tyrannical. I think fortified is fine how it is at the moment.

Tyrannical needs something different. All it seems to do is make bosses huge damage sponges and prolongs fights by minutes at a time just for the sake of it.

Maybe have tyrannical only mechanics or just something different, even a decrease inthe hp tyrannical gives would make it more balanced vs fortified.

I feel like it is a double edged sword. In for example s1 the highest keys done were on tyrannical because trash hurted so much and took such a long time. Our gear was not that strong back then. The highest dungeon timed was a +22?

The higher you get the higher Tyrannical scales, and it is always a 1 target fight, what is bad in efficiency. While on fortified in the end you still can pull more and put the damage in multiple mobs. Our gear scales way stronger now than in S1, we do not have to spam heal the tank for example, healers are now measured by the amount of damage it can do.

The conclusion can be fort/tyrannical are both bad. I am not sure about it, allthough in the season we are now Tyrannical weeks feels like netflix week, and fort-week is push M+.

I prefer Tyrannical weeks.

Fortified takes longer as there is more trash to deal with, most random pug groups are not capable of killing off a big pack the tank grabs, so you have to go slower, thus making it take longer.

Tyranical weeks are full of “Why cant this thing die already?!”

1 Like

If fortified takes longer then why are 4 of your 5 top dungeons fortified?

:thinking:

@Hinaelle, looking at your raider io, we play at different levels, and as such our experiences are vastly different. For you, a +2 may have felt basically the same as a 0, my experience was that a combination of the timer and the additional HP/damage from mobs made a big difference when mythic + was first introduced.

-Maybe we should ‘git gud’ as some are fond of saying but in reality, there are a lot of us who for various reasons struggle to get to the point where we can time a +15 etc. Personally, I found the addition of just tyrannical or fortified at +2 a smoother transition than it was in Legion. That’s why I think those affixes work well on lower keys.

Moving on to BFA, keys below +10 seem fine with tyrannical or fortified. You have to pay attention to what is happening but you don’t end up with overly long boss fights. The multiplier further up the keys really seems to kick in hard and that is where the system seems to be overly punishing.

It’s never going to be a perfect system, but I think they can improve how the two affixes interact.

But that was my point. You get tyrannical and fortified on +2 this expansion. In legion you didnt get the modifier until +10. So it is supposed to be more difficult to do a +2 in bfa vs doing a +2 in legion.
In legion there was just a sudden jump in difficulty at 10. Today its just a smaller jump from 9.

The damage modifier on the key itself is, I believe lower in BFA than in Legion. In a BFA +2, I believe the increase relates only to the Tyrannical or Fortified mobs whereas in Legion there was a damage modifier for all mobs from +2.

Thus why i made a suggestion to remove the two affixes and compensate by increasing health and damage scaling in general so you still feel the difference but without the imbalance and difficulty gap between the two affixes.

12 dungeons total, all my keys are 18+ except Siege.
meaning the majority of my keys are tyrannical.

Not sure you can read too well. Your highest keys are fort.

Absolutely agree. I want consistency between weeks.

1 Like