its a me again…
Im going to try again. can we please get the -dmg for tanks on damage trinket removed and get more focus on trinket in general from the people who makes them. like more balance. so people have more choices when it comes to trinkets in the game.
It would be enough if they just stopped dropping when you have tank loot-specialisation set.
Maybe. i just dont like the fact that there is restriction at all. same goes for healing specs. its a mmo. let people have the choice themself what they wonna use.
There is no choice…
Tank trinket with cheat death will always be #1. If not, pure stat stick.
Healer trinket with + mana will always be #1. If not, pure stat stick.
The only way to make either of those trinkets is to make them so bad and horrendous you prefer a DD one. But that is not “balance” anylonger is it?
Same for healers
thats why im saying they need to balance trinket more. if they do yes. then we could figure out ourself what trinket that fits the need for whatever we are doing in the game. its not only black and white as you set it up.
Tbh, a nice dmg reduction / absord trink I would prefer. I know everything is about dmg now, healers too, some people want to play their specs differently, and are not interested in proving how good they are doing +20s !
DF has some nice ones, and yes, also the cheat death one, but they had good tank trinks too.
abselutly. but we also had a choice back in DF. we could use what we wanted. either if you where a healer or tank
Not everything is black and white. But there are certain mechanics in this game that are black and white.
So. If you compare a trinket that does X damage passive. Vs a trinket that does Y dammage but active. You can compare. Its damage vs. damage.
If you compare a trinket that prevents your death vs. a trinket that odes X damage, in a dungeon season where damage taken is the limiting factor… then there is no comparison.
Same for Mana for healers. If the season is all about DDs and tanks getting mauled with bursty damage. All you do is spam the most mana hungry, instant beefy spells you have in your kit. Cause you have 1s to heal people from 10% to 100% before they yoyo back to 10%.
The only thing preventing me from keeping everyone alive at all times is mana management. Give me more mana and I can spam chain heals and healing surges all day and make people inmortal.
So again. You compare a trinket X damage to Y mana. Y mana wins 100% of the time.
Unless you nerf the Y damage to a stupid ridiculous quantity. Like the mana trinket from M+ that gives you 50k mana every 2 minutes when 1 riptide costs 200k mana… Which is nothing…
In DF tanks went with 1 cheat death and 1 shield that was 2x your HP pool. Which is massive. So massive that DDs and Healers were taking it too as an extra deff CD.
But those trinkets are more important the lower the key level.
Tanks in particular. If they dont have the skills to play at a +20, their chanes of dying increase significantly. Therefore, they need the cheat death more than anyone else.
As for healers, on a +20 they play so well that their mana efficiency is off the roof. Not to mention that DDs use their own deff CDs to help out, or off heal, ect…
So its healers at lower tiers that will find value in extra mana trinket the most.
It isn’t the limitinf factor in all keys though, that’s why it would feel so great to have a greater variance in what the trinkets does and how they interact with your gameplay.
For example, in higher priory keys on my prot warrior I love the absorb trinket from floodgate due to the ~50 sec cd on first boss. It’s a fantastic extra defensive that let’s me get past the part of the dungeon that I find most challenging. Meanwhile, in motherlode I’d prefer the Gallywix tank trinket for the third boss, as it will have a lower cd and last longer. In The Rookery there isn’t really anything dangerous for a tank, so there I’d rather go for more damage oriented trinkets. If there was a trinket that could be use as a group wide external I would probably play that to trivialize some pulls.
In short, more trinkets that allows you to adapt your gameplay would be lovely. This season is way better than s1, but it falls short compared to DF s3/s4.
I get what you mean. But I have to remind you that we did have that variety in DF.
And in the end, with that variety we all ended up (atleast tanks) taking the cheat death + absorb shield.
Every tank requires some degree of healing from any healer.
Dont do this. The extra 1% or 2% damage you do is inconsequential. Because in Rookery while you are cruising the healer and the party are getting mauled.
If you take a survivability trinket and manage to be completly ignored by the healer so he can focus on everthing else, then you will acheive better results.
Motherload is similar to Rookery. The bosses are not a massive thing. And packs do mostly party damage. So if you manage to be ignored by your healer you will be more succesfull.
If there is 1 trinket that allows you to trivialize mechancis, then there is no “balance” is there?
I say all this assuming good balance. Which is the title of this thread.
To some extent, yes. We also had non-healers running everbloom healer trinket for an extra external defensive, or fyrakk/brackenhide tank trinket for a personal defensive. We had healers running tindral caster dps trinket for more damage, and we had tanks running fyrakk dps/tank trinket or Brackenhide tank trinket along with cheat death trinket.
I’ll admit cheat death was too strong for high keys, and also rather stale, but we apart from that trinket we would see so much more variety.
Yes, but a tank trinket is just an extra defensive in this situation, and in the rookery the outgoing damage on the tank isn’t frequent enough to need that trinket. Having a healer pump 350k hps into the tank instead of 300k isnt going to be a limiting factor, 7-9% extra damage done by the tank may be though.
Except for the third boss, that one is a massive challenge for any non-dh tank. In a 15 their autos hits me for about 5M with shield block and shield wall up, thats why the specific tank trinket is warranted there (at least to me).
It doesn’t have to be that you can ignore mechanics with it, but let’s say that it creates a zone for 8 seconds that reduces damage taken by 10%, 2 minutes cooldown. That would hardly be overpowered, but could help a lot in dungeons like floodgate.
Again, I’m not asking for trinkets that allows one person to negate mechanics entirely for the whole party, just a bit more variance and interaction than what we have now.
Cheat death was valuable for lower end keys as well. Much more than higher ones. In DF tanks were inmortal. If played well.
It’s what allowed tanks in high keys to gather those massive packs with out dying. But of course, if you got 30 mobs hitting you then the chances by RNG to get an unlucky sequence of mechanics that 1-shot you increases dramatically.
In lower keys, tanks simply were not that skilled. You forget to pop CD for a tank-buster and died. Things like that.
So cheat death for a tank is valuable in ANY circumstance. Low keys. Or high keys.
You know why? Because there were no healer trinkets, and no good stat stick trinkets either. The Fyrak healer trinket had Haste ! 
So if you were not a haste healer (which no healer was) it was garbage.
And you know why there was no good healer trinket? Because the prior season Rashoks Molten Heart absolutely revolutionized healing for all specs. And blizzard got scared of healer trinkets.
Yes, tanks were immortal, and they shouldn’t have been. The trinket was valuable in lower end keys for bad players, anyone who knew what they did wouldn’t need it.
It’s more so that it prevented a wipe in case something went wrong, an extra safety net so to say. I still think it’s overpowered, but the brackenhide hollow trinket was more effective and saw more strategic usage. The cheat death trinket wasn’t something tanks planned to use, just an ace up their sleeve for when poop hit the fan.
We had Smoldering Seedling and the everbloom healer trinket, both fantastic in niche situations.
As I said, we saw a lot of variety because there was room for it, there wasn’t 2 trinkets that were the best possible trinkets in every scenario, even though a lot of people blindly followed tier lists.
Lets agree to disagree here.
I dislike that change. First and foremost because I was promissed that party AoE damage was to be less, and less bursty. In exchange I would have to heal tanks… a little.
But turns out that tanks have a huge HP pool… my ST heals are peanuts compared to that. In addition, tank damage is so huge that no heal can keep them alive outside of really big DR CDs like Ignore Pain…
And to top thinks up… party wide damage is as heavy, and bursty as it ever was in DF !!!
So no thanks… make tanks inmortal again please. Which, as a bonus, would make people play them more often.
For MW monks exclusevely. For noone else.
Everyone else went with 2 stat sticks. One from EB and anotherone from a dungeon.
Yeah… there is a ton of RNG in keys. And I have seen tanks gets 1-shot more than once.
That is why they used both. 
Well, it seems you’ve made up your mind about it, no point in reasoning why that’s not necessarily true then.
I think we have different experiences here. I found it rather trivial in DF (highest I did was 23 keys though, so maybe that’s why), specially with how much damage that was avoidable due to how effective cc was. TWW s1 had quite a few one-shot moments though, and they’ve been lessened going into s2. I can’t think of anything that is at one-shot level without defensives up until you reach like +16 or so keys, at least nothing that is unavoidable.
Could be, the healer I played was mainly mw monk so maybe I’m biased about it. It was a trinket which allowed you to adapt your playstyle a whole lot though, so the point still stands. More trinkets like that please.
Not true, unless you were just doing vault keys and blindly followed tier lists. Players pushing actually often went with a rageheart and everbloom external defensive trinkets.
Maybe we just want different things though. You seem to prefer the stale options that passive trinkets bring, while I prefer the dynamic gameplay that comes with interactive trinkets.
I played in DF a lot of M+. Its not “making my mind”. Its what I observed. Its what top players were doing. And bottom players as well.
If you did something else you were the exception. And that is OK too. Its also an observation.
Let me just put my point across…
I was promised that there would be less “divine tolls” from Paladins and “impales” from Knights. In exchange for more tank heal. And what did I get? More “divine tolls” and more “impales” in every dungeon.
They promissed less chunky dispell mechanics like the squid boss from Throne of Tides. What did I get? A whole dungeon where trash packs do it back to back, plus a boss that does them and cant even be dispelled (all of CB and 1st boss of CB).
And im talking about +14/+15.
Reconsider your point then. Trinkets have to benefit all classes. Not just MW monks.
So you first have to balance out healers properly (Oracle DPriest… AHEMMMM)… and then we can talk about trinkets.
If you went with double shield trinkets then you were 100%, 1000000% following blindly the tier lists. Those were only relevant in keys 28+ and above (in S3). Its when the 1-shot territory was.
Because healers (in DF) already had really powerfull CDs. And did not need to double dip a trinket with them. And we had more than enough CDs to cycle through all the mechanics.
PLUS we have other things to deal with other than CDs. So that is why healers in general (not just me) prefer 100x more a passive trinket.
Maybe that’s a bad example as divine tolls are force desynced. You won’t have more party healing to do if you pull 5 or 50 paladins.
Why, isn’t diversity a good thing? Some trinkets give mastery which favor certain specs, whilst others have no need for it. Should we get rid of those trinkets too? Or just make specs homogenous?
It’s okay for some trinkets to be better than others for some specs, as long as all specs gets viable options.
No tier lists recommended that.
Well yes, that’s where you reach a point where you suddenly had to adapt. Focusing on damage suddenly weren’t as attractive anymore. You’re making my point here.
That’s cool, and if people like you wants to use passive trinkets I think you should be able to do that. I just don’t see why that means people like me shouldn’t have the option to use interactive trinkets.
Diversity of trinkets is good. As long as that diversity is tranferable to all specs. Not just 1. Otherwise its not real diversity, its fake diversity.
And then on a practical sense, Gallywax can only drop so many trinkets. What are you proposing? Same effect but different stats? You will NEVER see it drop then…
Might as well just put Intelect on all of them.
So no. We should not make specs homogenious or all trinkets the same. Why are you so extreme with this?
All I am saying is that we should accept that all tanks need a cheat death. And all healers want more mana. How you get that, its where the variety comes in. Like talents. I have Resurgence, MW have Mana Tea. Different ways to recover mana, but both produce the same result.
That is called Normalization. Not homogenization.
WoWHead did. Because the WOW head tier list is made by the pros, for the pros. That is why you should never rollow tier lists blindly with out understanding it first.
Yes. But “trinket diversity” is not a solution to the problem. 1-shots were really annoying. And there are things you can do to make them less frustrating.
Because you cant balance them. A 2 min trinket will not have the same impact on a spec with 2 min CDs than with a 1.5 min CD spec.
A passive trinket will produce same results for everyone.
And be realistic. You cant have the same trinket but with different CDs to match different specs. It feels aquard.
I’m not, I’m trying to understand your logic when you mean that having trinkets like Smoldering Seedling is bad because its great for one healer but not the rest. By that logic, having a DPS trinket that has a mastery buff on use would be bad if not all DPS value mastery equally, no?
I disagree. Sure, if the option is between a cheat death or insert useless thing here, I as a tank would prefer the cheat death. If it’s between a cheat death and a (let’s make something up here) a passive stagger with a 20 sec cd stagger cleanse, I’d 100% prefer the stagger. It all depends on what we compare it too, a cheat death doesn’t necessarily have to be the preferred option if the other options can rival it.
Maybe I remember things wrong, I’m not gonna dive too deep into it. I kinda doubt they for example recommended rogues and hunters running the everbloom healer trinket though, a trinket they can’t even loot. Yet that is what was used in high keys to survive.
It’s not meant to be. My intention with versatile trinkets is to add variety to how you play depending on what you struggle with. Since all other items are boring stat sticks, trinkets have the possiblity of being a great piece of utility.
It seems like you’re hung up on offensive trinkets, but that’s not what I’m focusing on here. It doesn’t have to line up with your offensive cd’s, it can simply be a great piece of utility.