Let me be as reductive as possible I can address what you’ve said if you want but it seems to be more about the reasoning or who, why and what rather than the fact the Alliances stance on him as a person has shifted, I felt it was more nuanced before whether as now it’s more boring. Him being on the ‘wrong side of the history’ isn’t the issue it’s the fact supporting him in spite of that to me makes a more interesting story to me rather than being indifferent, unsympathetic or condemning him to be percieved as morally correct or righteous.
My man, Anduin isn’t the entire Alliance. Anduin might condemn Daelin for his actions, but the Alliance does not. The Alliance still upholds him as one of their greatest heroes.
They weren’t indifferent, unsympathetic or condemning him because of his actions that led to his death. They did not support him because they could not support him.
No but he’s meant to represent it, or did at the time as the High King. He’s Christie’s golden child, he is the de facto moral arbiter of what the Alliance believes to be righteous and what it actively condemns. I would be very cynical of the assumption that it’s only a personal opinion held only by him and not the general sentiment because of what we’ve seen portrayed in game and because the current writers wouldn’t know what nuance if it flew in to their offices.
Which would be the same as having Thrall proclaim that Grommash, infact, never redeemed himself and that he was actually a bad guy and the Horde should apologize for everything he has done.
Might not be the whole Horde, but having the face of said faction condemn someone is akin to having the whole faction condemn someone.
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In Warcraft 3, he literally didn’t give a flying hoot about the Third War or Jaina being stuck in the Eastern Kingdoms during that period at all, until he found out that the orcs had escaped the massacre and then tried to take over a settlement entirely composed out of refugees of an entire sub-continent he left to die, led by his daughter who he genuinely did not even try to help escape from Lordaeron even as he held Azeroth’s most formidable fleet.
If he is a fatherly character, then Arthas didn’t kill Terenas, he just ‘lovingly embraced him’ when he arrived at the Throne Room with his ‘funny slightly less warm than usual knife’.
They retconned him sailing to Kalimdor to find Jaina? Also I believe his reaction to finding Jaina was quite some relief, video is linked above.
That’s a piece of ‘lore’ that comes from Beware the Daughter of the Seas, which is a folk song made by Kul Tirans, telling what they think happened under their own biased lens. It’s not canon right now because it’s never been canon, because it’s not an objective story told by a narrator. It’s what people who consider Daelin a hero think what happened.
Daelin Proudmoore went to Kalimdor to kill orcs.
I see, so they retconned the lore? Because I’m pretty sure he sailed to Kalimdor to find Jaina in Warcraft 3 which is obviously years before BFA.
Jaina, Bless the stars, I’ve found you at last! When I heard that Lordaeron fell, I despaired. But I knew you’d find a way to escape.
To me, this sounds like he was, actually, actively looking for Jaina, even if it was not shown ingame…
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me when I’m a fatherly character and my daughter goes through fighting the end of the world twice but I know she’ll find a way to manage until I hear about 3 boats of orcs arrived in kalimdor
I mean you can go out to look for her… And have hope she found a way to escape at the same time, no?
Not like he could’ve made landfall in Lordaeron and siege through the whole country to fight the Undeaths everywhere until he found her…
I mean was he supposed to just float his boats up on dry land, pull a Jaina and fly his whole fleet over lordaeron to find her?
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To be fair, letting three ships of orcs across to kalimdor to set up a whole new horde is a horrific stain on the record of the one man capable of catching that little problem in a naval blockade before it’s even an issue.
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I feel like this doesn’t resonate well at all. The orcs, ogres and trolls annihilated such an incredible amount of lands and people through savage warfare and evil magics, Daelin’s own son among them, during the first and Second war. The Old Horde’s plan, even when Orgrim took over, was to destroy all of humanity. Without the knowledge that the New Horde had banded with Alliance refugees to basically stop the end of the world (and really, how fanciful must that not sound to someone like Daelin?) it’s not unjustifiable at all that he would go to lengths to try and ensure a Horde never rises again. It makes the cinematic linked above rub me the wrong way in how it shows Katherine Proudmoore in about 30 seconds deciding to condemn her husband’s actions based on a twisted vision of him made manifest in what amounts to hell itself for the Kul Tirans (I adore the rest of it though).
One of WoWs greatest weaknesses, besides the fact the Narrative devs can’t stay the course for apparently more than one Expac, is being really bad at storytelling consistently within their own game/s.
I’m not saying they should have super long Cinematics or anything (although, given the strength of the cinematic team in the face of all the REST of the junk the other teams do, Im also saying they could make worse choices…) but they have entire zones and expacs to tell stories with. And they still manage to fluff it more often than not. I just don’t understand how people miss that consistently? It’d be impressive if it wasn’t outright depressing, tbqh…
A more than natural storm did make sure this didn’t happen and saw the orcs stranded on the Darkspear Isle to boot.
Yeah. That’s why I made that point from the perspective of us, people who know the overall story. I don’t blame Daelin for thinking the Horde hadn’t changed at all, but I still think he was objectively in the wrong for attempting to renew another war with the Horde when the Alliance barely held it together in the Eastern Kingdoms.
That’s not what happened, though? She had spent the last decade absolutely hating her daughter because she, like all of Kul Tiras, thought she had betrayed her father and helped murder him - this vision, twisted as it might have been, showed how Jaina had done what she could to convince her father obviously, and obviously had her mourning over his body cradled in her arms.
She didn’t condemn his actions, she forgave her daughter after years of thinking her guilty of treason.
Just catching up on the thread.
She did help Thrall murder her father though or has that been retconned? Originally if she hadn’t helped Thrall the Horde would never have been be able to breach Theramore’s defenses and fight their way through the Theramore’s Citadel, even if the mission parameters of the WC3 mission don’t count (which they should) she still chose to watch her father die in favour of the Horde. If that’s correct then the whole scenario in BFA feels more like an attempt to handwave Jaina’s behaviour rather than address it.
She stood aside and allowed the Horde inside of her city, but according to Kul Tiras she just about plunged a knife directly into Daelin’s heart to kill him.
She says “You could not save him from himself” implying that Daelin was on a self-destructive path and no one could stop his fate (minor sidenote, I don’t like how the voice actor says his name initially, it comes out in a way that seems to imply annoyance or almost disgust instead of shock and surprise after hearing her dead husband’s voice; “Daelin?”). She then also forgave her daughter but it comes at the implausible realization that Daelin Proudmoore only had himself to blame, which happens really quickly for someone who’s been holding a decade long grudge and been witness to the same Horde that tore half a continent to shreds in the First and Second wars simply to alleviate the guilt from Jaina. The cinematic would have worked just fine without that line and Katherine simply realizing how much Jaina has suffered with regret since that day in Theramore and wanting to mend bridges instead of stewing in hatred.
But I guess then they couldn’t crowbar Jaina into becoming Lord Admiral and yada yada and good god all the horrible BfA memories are suddenly flooding back to me.
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Truly 1 of the highlights how overnight she went from ‘we have a national anthem about how awful she is’ to ‘wow you’re our hero + leader we love you so much’.
What a well-written character that perfectly suits the narrative and doesn’t have the narrative suited to her.
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Wasn’t he? He was fully intent on restarting the war with the Horde mere months after half of the Alliance was destroyed and the potentially near extinction of the human race in favour of simply undeath.
But these are some pretty legitimate issues, even I can’t but agree it was handled too quickly. I feel like it is however more an issue with how it was written as opposed to what was written.