Retribution Paladin Design in 10.0.7

Classes Paladin
21

Ok but why?
Rogue a sneaky slow moving methodical sneaky fighter.
A paladin on a horse being slower then this just do not make logical sense.

If you want to go down the route of paladin using the Horse to get around you really need to make it make sense why the paladin is slower then a class that is literally about sneaking around obstacles to not draw attention to itself.
Remember Stealth is not a magic ability it is not invisibility in your own lore.

The idea that the paladin a knight on a horse is slow but a rogue who is in stealth is fast is just bad.
There is a reason why inn vanilla rogue had minus movement speed when in stealth.
I understand it for the games sense but the horse really does not fit when you start to think for a second on it.

Losing utility that we have had literally from day one just feels bad good that it is understood now.
Ret paladin has less utility now in Dragonflight (and no changes to the utility by the way) then it did in Mists of Pandaria.

Overall glad to hear something is being done it is to bad this is the third time we hear anything from blizzard about paladin in Dragonflight from Alpha til today.

1 Like
22

Greetings!

I was so surprised when I saw this post this morning. I only have a few days left on my subscription and I really wanted to cancel my account because how I feel the Paladin stuck (esp ret). This post gave me a bit of hope. Oh yeah I play my pally since 2005 of EU release date so I have a bit-o-experice.

My main issue with Ret in PVE is the lack of supporting abilities in M+. Sometimes I had to spend a whole hour to find a group because I was rejected right away when I applied to an M+: “we need Blood lust/Hero sorry”, “no pallys thx”, “we need druid buff/pries buff” etc. As a Ret Pally I have nothing to offer to a M+ party or a Raid beside the combat res what almost all classes have. For devo aura 3% dmg reducion i have to replace my Ret aura so i lose dps. 3% is also nothing in end game content.
My suggestion to have at least 2 buffs (for casters and melee). All of our longer blessings were removed from the game and I have no idea why? Its true it was a bit too much at the end with 6 or 7 different blessings but at the end we have none left. Blessing of Kings or blessing of might/wisdom would be a nice help to make us valued by M+/Raid leaders.

Button bloat: I really feel its also too much! Not just because if I use something everything else gets on global cool down but esp. in PVP its simply feels bad.

Modifiers:: There are too many talents (eg: Blade of Justice that has 4 different talents to modify it) . They could be merged or changed. Just take a look on a pvp/pve fight DMG meters. Our DPS is in the skies for like a 30-40 sec and it drops to the bottom until the Seraphim-Avenging Wrath-trinkets- are up again for an other 30 sec and we go down with the ship again. I always feel frustrated with this and seeing other classes doing nice constant dps (i dont expect to be in the top 1-2 but also dont want to be in the bottom). I dont mind if our burst would be nerfed if our constant damage would be higher in return. Crusader strike is still feels like a placeholder, exorcism also. Justicar’s vengeance does more dmg and also heals us, whats the point of templar’s verdict? They could be also merged into one ability: Templars Justice, so you can free up a lot of talents for different things.

Survivability: basically this (and mobility) is the main reason why I want to stop playing with my Ret paladin. PVP: I feel so frustrated when my Divine Shield is removed just a half second after I use it when my HP is down from 100% to 30% in 5 seconds.
Its just not fair that the spell can be easily removed and we also get a 30sec penalty (aka Forberance) to prevent us to use any kind survivability. Just make Divine shield with less dmg reduction like 60-70% but un-dispellable.
My shield of vengeance is gone in 3 seconds as I use it. I dont have ability to dodge or resist stuns/fears. I cant teleport to the other side of the arena when Im on low HP. I cant be invisible when im on low HP. I cant change into some kind of travel form to run away fast to heal myself. I cant root, I dont have pets to protect me, I dont have teleport gates, heroic leap, fear, charge, blink, fly up to the sky and so on. I have a divine shield what is dispelled and Im dead right away. Recently I was killed by a rouge from max HP in full conquest PVP gear under one stun. Oh yeah I could not use my divine shield because it was on constant GCD from the stuns.
My suggestion: make DS undispellable/remove it from the global CD with less damage reduction in PVP and nerf Forberance.

Manueverability Someone mentioned a never implemented spell where paladins could throw a hammer port there with the speed of Light.
We are usually called wheelchair class. When our blessing of freedom is on cooldown we are slowed/rooted and just slowly wandering in a hope that we can make one hit to the enemy player before we are nuked down from distance. If we are about to win people just fly/jump/port/run away from us. The divine steed in its current from is useless. We still can be rooted/slowed.
Divine steed should not be rooted or slowed or make it a real charger where it actually charges through enemies (knocking them back) Whats the point than? 45 sec CD is way too much as well for 4 sec of fast run. Blessing of freedom should need a real talent for a +30% speed bonus not just in the PVP talents.
In an M+ im always way much behind of the others and its so hard to keep the tempo with them because I have nothing to speed myself. We really need some buffs for freedom/divine steed.
Other question: why long arm of the law was removed? Hand of Hidrance should be baseline or increased range/should be applied to judgement instead of blade of justice.

Utility many of our utilities were removed during the years:

  • Blessing of Kings/Might/Wisdom
  • Divine Guardian (All party or raid members within 30 yards, excluding the Paladin, take 20% reduced damage for 6 sec.)
  • Sacred Shield (Protects the target with a shield of Holy Light for 30 sec, absorbing up to (186.6% of Spell power) damage every 6 sec.)
  • Resistance auras

So there is ample place to fill up: mobility, utility, survival, sustainable dmg.
Hope you really read all our comments and its not just a placeholder post! Thank you!

3 Likes
23

You are the best. GG. Next do it for Mage pls :smiley:

24

Thank you for finally doing something for us, we cant possibly be in a worse spot then we already are, so I look forward to the changes.

25

Im happy about the surv buffs, we definetly have felt squishier than we should. But I like my buttons. If you give us Evoker numbers of abilities, you do know you’ll never be forgiven.

26

funny there is a complete article about RET PALADINS but some other classes are just completely ignored and i am not talking about shamans (except enhancement)

27

I agree with almost everything you said, especially with the removal of retribution aura. They should either delete the whole thing entirely, or make it a passive, so we don’t have to choose whether we want to deal extra damage, or provide a raid buff. It’s a stupid choice we have to make right now, if we are the only paladin in the raid.

There’s one thing I don’t agree on with you, and it’s the removal of wake of ashes. I think it’s one of the coolest abilities we got during the years, it’s on par with final reckoning, it should stay imo.

Horse is kinda fine for me, I’d say it should stay, but give us something else we can pick on top of it, because the horse alone is not enough.

And wing is at a pretty decent place right now I believe. 2 min is not too long, and it feels pretty impactful.

The things that really bothers are the following. Seraphim and exorcism is very clunky in it’s current form, the way we have to bake them into our rotation is very frustrating.

Our AoE DPS depends too much on consec. If the tank moves around more than necessary, our DPS plummets, and we have no control over it. Make it deal way less dmg and bake that dmg into our divine storm or whatever, or rework consec so that it moves with us, and also make it a little bigger maybe, like a DK death and decay.

Survivability wise we should also be fine even with the current abilities that exist today. The only problem is that we can’t have all of them, since we have to choose between shield of vengeance and divine protection. If we could have both at the same time, I think we should be fine. Or maybe give us something on top of these, that works like AMS for DK’s. If they don’t wanna give us a lot more movement ability, then at least make it possible to resist some mechanics like rogues with CoS or DK’s with AMS / deaths advance. ( I know we have divine shield for that, but 3.5 min CD is a bit much compared to 2 min CoS and 1 min AMS.

1 Like
28

Bro, for a long time we were not even sure if the paladin team is still alive at Blizzzard HQ. Let us have some joy finally, we have waited long enough.

4 Likes
29

This is the 3rd time blizzard has talked about ret paladin from Alpha of Dragonflight expansion first one was the removal of a talent and why they removed it the second one was now with the 10.0.5 patch where they said they looked into it and this is the third one.

That is all the information blizzard has given about ret paladin for a long time.

30

I like this expension and i also like paladin as class, especially ret.
here is my input, i would change the first talent to make you choose either devine storm or justicar vengeance as an add on talent on top off templars verdict.

exorcism dot should be a chance on concentration hit talent, or divine storm hit

barrier of faith should be baseline,

devine steed should remove all snare effect and slowing effects.

seraphim should procs from holy spending abillities

As an addition, i would like to see retribution paladin also be able to give blessings to team members.

31

i hope this isnt a Announcement… of a Complete prune.

other then that… amazing news :smiley:

I cant name a DPS Class currently which sucks as hard as Ret paladin currently does, so many some examples?

there are many DPS Classes which arent amazing in some content. however none that is alike ret. which litterally sucks in all content across the board lol.

32

Some changes I would like to see:

  1. Remove Charger, give us WoD mobility abilities(Speed of light, Long arm of the law and
    pursuit of justice) back.
  2. In Dragonflight there are several classes that can buff raid. So bringing back I.e.
    Blessing of Kings that increases primary stats for 5 or 10 % would be nice.
  3. Empowered seals ability from WoD would give us another nice play style.
  4. Make damage increase from Avenging Wrath baseline. Make Avenging wrath increase
    our secondary stats by 10% so we aren’t so dependant on it.
  5. Give us Divine hammer ability from Legion to choose between it and Blade of Justice.
  6. For extra survivability give Divine protection as an extra defensive.
    That’s my opinion on the matter. Hope it helps in any way.
3 Likes
33

If it makes you feel better this is the 3rd blue post about ret paladins since the development started on DF. And its not funny at all.

34

That’s an exaggeration. Obviously it needs this rework, but it’s not nearly as bad as you describe it.

About the complete pruning, yes I agree, I hope they don’t remove too much stuff. I actually like that ret is more on the complex side of specs. As I mentioned it in my previous comment, for my taste only exorcism and seraphim hits my limit. I think these are too much. Especially exorcism. Seraphim wouldn’t even be a problem if it would not cost HP.

35

From a pvp pov:

WoG does nothing. Might aswell buff it by 100% and it would still feel bad to press it. Ret defensives are also instantly nerfed by 10% due to dampening which affect both WoG and Shield of Vengeance.

Mobility is bad. First of all its just a movement increase, not like a leap or a blink or a step. And its not even as fast as a monk roll or a DH dash. And you also need to save freedom for it. So youre spending 2 globals for a bit of a movement increase.

Have you ever played ret in pvp? Ever wondered why ret is the target 99% of the time? It cant run away and it cant defend itself.

The only, literally the only thing that was going in favor of ret was its burst. And since you took that away from the spec its safe to say that ret is the most useless spec in the current meta. GGs.

Also ret is only good into people that dont know how to play vs a ret hence why you will never see a ret in AWC for example.

Suggested changes to ret survivability:

  • it should have both shield of vengeance and divine protection. Both should have a 1 min CD

  • you can safely buff WoG by 100%, with dampening and all the MS effects currently thats justified

  • Make justicars vengeance baseline or bake the heal into some other non-filler ability

  • Make eye for an eye an actual parry like die by the sword from warrior

  • give ret Blessing of Spellwarding

##Changes to ret mobility:

  • remove horse

  • put freedom off the gcd

  • give ret a leap/charge/step/something on a lower cd than horse. my god i hate horse, off gcd ofc

  • bring movement increase on judgement back, it should also remove snares

##changes to dmg

If you feel its too much buttons remove some, idc but make ret FOR ONCE a decent spec. Ret has been resolving around oneshots for eternity. Recently you buffed exorcism by 80% and guess what its still bad WTF. No one can convince me that you looked at this ability even once before implementing it with its 10.0 value.

If you remove its oneshot you would need to massively increase its sustain dmg, like literally buff every filler ability by 200%, its that undertuned.

4 Likes
36

agreed tbh. i hope they dont prune… theres better ways of making abilities feel good then to delete half their kit.

true it prolly is… however, for how long has Ret said in the bottom pack of PvE Lists… and a Meme in PvP… and how often have we seen spikes of good tiimes as Paladin.

37

Good to hear that blizzard is changing rets! Thanks blizzard :slight_smile:

Im a paladin main since TBC: Most of paladins hate holy power and it should be removed, we are so similar to rogues, but that probably wont happen, so im going to give a few sugestions and ideas how to make the spec fun.

  • I agree on this, I just hope you don’t remove Final Reckoning. Why? It’s a has such a cool animation and effect, so feels so great to press while it fits retribution fantasy, could get some %dmg nerfs to decrease burst and stacking damage.

  • Seraphim needs to go, 3 HP with 45 seconds CD we can’t even fit with 1 minute build, it’s super clunky to use and is another stacking buff that leads to extreme numbers.

  • Remove blade of justice and replace it with exorcism, adjust numbers I really don’t care since exorcism fits better rets that blade of justice.

  • Shield of vengeance aka shield of paper feels bad to press, damage is nerfed, can’t use it while stunned, has GCD, etc. Remove it and give us baseline Divine Protection.

  • Please get rid of Divine Steed or give us a node between steed and Long arm :slight_smile:

  • Consecration could really use some changes, moving with us or something.

  • Why hand of hindrance is still a talent? Remove it all together or bake it to class tree.

  • Execution Sentence is a fun ability but can lead to some toxic burst, maybe change it or Remove.

  • Agreed on this, me and a lot of paladins have been saying this since beta… A alot of talents like Judgment does this judgment does that, to much %stacking damage. Please remember nerf Final Reckoning %HP Debuff but don’t remove it from the game, it’s such a fun ability.

  • Can you please look at the number of talents named Seal of this seal of that? Give us seals back, or maybe old seal of vengeance and righteousness.

  • Divine Storm - Give us a talent like warrios: Cooldown for damage increase. Divine storm has always been LOVED for retributions, and if possible give us the old animation via glyph idk.

  • Yep, plate wearing class dying faster than cloth, Im like what’s the purpose of armor types? I mean we die faster to all types of damage - Physical or Magical!

  • If im not wrong, paladins are the only class that don’t have passive %damage reduction and %stamina increase on the talent trees. So I completly agree with you about giving us a mixture of passive bonus, but not only for spells, talents like: Divine aegis: All damage taken reduced by x% .

  • Retributions don’t want to be unkillable, we just want to not have our health bar dancing all arenas, and always being afraid to die in a GCD.

  • PLEASE "Nerf "Divine Shield - Why ? Having no damage penalty during divine shield is toxic gameplay and I think blizzard punishes a lot because of that. Add a -50% damage dealt during divine shield, remove it’s GCD then you can start looking at giving us more survability options/improvements

  • No one likes being atacked by a retribution with wings while being immune.

  • Yes, divine shield feels weak with modern WoW: Hello insta Mass Dispells, we could get a type of talent to help us with that. I mean a lot of classes already have better immunities, resto druid tranquility, emerald communion etc. Remember when bubble was unique?

  • Sacred shield was a loved and fun ability to have, give us back, adjust numbers.

We never asked for rogue mobility. We just want to fit the modern WoW classes are in general very mobile so we wan’t to be competitive.

Long arm of the Law (Choice node with Divine Steed) - Tell me blizzard who doesn’t love this talent? Give it back adjust numbers, I mean 40% movespeed for 2 seconds with judgment having 10+ CD it’s not broken.

We need Emancipate back, paladins always removed roots and slows. We still have to trade GCD and big mana cost to use emancipate. Pretty balanced. I remember going OOM using Emancipate back in Cata, MoP etc.

What happened to what you said about us being an “Unstoppable Juggernaut?” We are pretty stoppable ^^

If possible… Completly get rid of Divine Steed or give us an option to choose between screaming horse and Long arm of the law, the whole paladin community thanks you from the bottom of our hearts.

Btw warriors have rogue mobility? :zipper_mouth_face:
And again, we don’t want and never asked for rogue mobility. :slight_smile:

  • Yes. Since the beginning of this game we were one of the classes with a lot of utility and buffs, what happened to them? Since when paladins don’t have kings or wisdom or might? Mindblowing. :exploding_head:

  • Change retribution aura like wrath of lich king version or something, I really don’t care as long you change it.

  • If blessings make a return we don’t need to have all three of them, give retributions might, holy wisdom, protection kings.

  • Paladin Class Tree also needs changes: if paladin class tree isn’t the worst designed and most boring tree it’s a good candidate for it. Class tree is flooded with boring talents, seal of this seal of that, auras being talents and not baseline?

  • Obduracy speed and avoidance increase by 2% being at the bottom of class tree where good talents should be there?

  • Touch of light dealing laughable damage and healing with a low proc rate? Give us fun talents, take a loot at Wrath of the lich king trees, Tbc etc.

  • Dusk and Dawn is not fun everyone hates it and it’s clunky.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Don’t forget about holy paladins mastery :slight_smile:

EDIT 2: WoD was the peak of retribution gameplay and we weren’t broken!

4 Likes
38

Actualy a damage penalty would be a better way to balance divine shield. :slight_smile:

39

get rid of the holy power spending pls its so boring ret pala in wotlk is so much more fun

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40

well yeah ur right, i am sorry guys - u deserve some love

1 Like