Just make it like other mele classes, give us mortal strike , give us mobility , give us consistant dmg and give us defensive cooldowns. U can nerf the big burst , healing . Make ret viable for pve contnet . Right now with a few more “great” hotfixes its gonna be a meme spec again. Everybody can kite wings, after bubble u are dead, if u spam wog u dont do dmg so yeah gg.
The funny part is that they don’t even need to actually REWORK much.
Ret just needs some proper defensives in PVP and some party utility in PVE.
So basically Eye for an Eye and Cavalier become baseline and Eye for an Eye applies to ALL damage - and these two talent slots that are left may be filled with some recycled from the past abilities. And with that only you can safely nerf self heals or at least give WoG mana cost or CD so it can’t be spammed indefinitely. I’m not even sure if more would have to be done in case of PVP.
In case of PVE they need to finally acknowledge that NOBODY GIVES A DAMN ABOUT OFF HEALING IN PVE. Nobody cares that Ret can sometimes heal someone, nobody cares about that 3% damage reduction. Ret is a DPS class, it should provide some CC utility / damage buffs / raw brute damage. That’s what is expected from DPS class.
Today I looked into WW skills. The first thing that came to my mind? “Oh, it’s kinda like Ret but just better!”
Self heals? Sure, maybe not as powerful like Ret but at least it’s something.
Res? Sure, why not! Ret doesn’t have CR too.
Cleanse toxins? Yeah, why not! Ret has that too!
Baseline hard CC? Why not! Ret even has two of them! Both (Repentance and Turn Evil) are kinda retarded and one needs to be talented, you are never sure which one is going to work! It just cannot be simple like Paralysis and just work.
AoE stun? Why not! Ret has some BS that needs to be talented and is broken immediately anyway by any non holy damage.
Some party damage buff? (+5% physical) Yeah, sure! Ret doesn’t need anything like that, it’s DPS after all and DPS should buff defenses (right?).
When we are at defensive abilities - sure, Ret can use BoP on tank and kill the entire party when tank loses aggro, while Ring of Peace has 45 sec CD and achieves basically the same goal.
Maybe mobility? Well, Ret can buff your mounted speed if certain aura is used… WW can buff your movement speed by 10% all the time as passive aura.
I still can continue, but I would just advise some Blizzard employees to actually take a look at WW monk skills and talents and then look at this piece of crap that Ret has in the same place and think for a second why literally everyone me included would rather prefer WW instead of Ret in their party.
All Rets should use some kind of macro or WeakAura with /say Saved XYZ’s butt with (Layonhands, WoG, BoS, BoP, BoF). People actually don’t recognize this utility in hectic situations so things may change in the future, at least for random M+ pugs where ppl tend to fail multiple times per run.
But this utility is pretty weak in fact. Good healer will just take care of it, no need for Ret to interfere. It’s even worse - that healer will be upset that Ret is wasting HP for off heals instead of doing damage. Meanwhile WW has some not very powerful party off-heals that can be used WHILE damaging enemies. Also Ring of Peace is just wonderful, I just love to have WW monks in party (as a Prot Pal) because of their utility alone. They can literally save my butt on their own. And they pack hell of a punch.
Off heals are superb in PVP, half useless in PVE. Even Repentance and many other Ret skills are basically made for PVP and crap in PVE. Wonderful CC to have - too bad that only in PVP most of the times. In PVE I would ALWAYS take Monk’s paralysis. 45s CD? Doesn’t matter, it only matters to me that it’s reliable.
Ret should have some PVE only skills that would make him useful. Right now I just don’t even see a point in Ret’s existence in PVE, WW is just better.
As pointed above, the plan is not to have a bad healer who cant keep up, or dps who fail and soak every mechanic, but Ret is there to make them fail less. The plan is for people to not fail at all, and for dps to have dps utility and cooldowns, not loh and bop.
As also pointed above “off heals” are just not a thing anymore. If you randomly “off heal” in unorganised groups, you just make your healer’s heals that land 0.5 sec later overheal hard, and you just sacrificed 65% of your damage if you replace TV with WoG. And on the other side of the same coin, an organised group will never rely on ret offheals as part of its plan to handle a pull. 90% of the time you will just use bop or loh on yourself to cover up some slopiness, making them a poor man’s turtle or a 10 min cd exhileration.
That sounds strange. This is not what I meant exactly. Sure, the Ret could also fully do the healer’s job, throwing one WoG after another and lose a lot of dps (~30-40% on singletarget) which is absolutely legit if the healer died mid fight and no br/cr is available at this moment. But my point was only using it whenever its really necessary and there is no chance the healer could handle this intime. I mean even standard wow interface is showing you where the next heal is going to land to avoid overhealing. Depending on talents Ret’s total dps is mainly coming from a rather short burst window. Using some WoG outside of this burst will not make the dps drop significantly. Using 1 WoG per minute is about 60 dps loss in this case or more if we talk about AoE and Divine Storm. A good tradeoff if tank, healer or destroyer would be dead otherwise.
I’m aware that in organized “professional” groups this kind of utility is nothing someone would ever rely on but as I mainly do M+ with randoms I can tell you a bunch of my timed runs wouldn’t exist without me using this set of utility. But the sad thing is just people don’t recognize that in a Dungeon (or Raid). The healer thinks “Good job with using health potion at the last second” and the rest thinks (if anything) “Good job Healer”. Even if you top the healing meter for whatever reason there won’t be any comment at all
In case someone is interrested, here is a WA string for instance chat message "Word of Glory on (player name) healing for X. Only triggers when it produces zero overhealing.
I see what you’re saying, and I agree to some extend. Im not trying to argue that ret has absolutely no way to help his party apart from doing damage. Im trying to argue that, as you said yourself, these things stopped being considered “utility” a long time ago.
Take shadowpriest’s vampiric embrace for example. It has no cost at all, just 1 gcd to press it, and for a full FIFTEEN seconds, the shadowpriest dishes out 4-6k hps ON TOP of his normal dps, and that’s automatic, smart heal which you can’t fail or misplay. Still do you see anyone -ourselves included- going “hey guys, our group has 1 dps spot left, lets grab a shadowpriest for that juicy embrace offheal!” Lol no, shadowpriests are on the same boat as rets for m+ pugs, half the people reading this post will open wowhead to look up what Vampiric Embrace even is. Because thats how it is, if you’re a dps and your cooldown doesn’t deal 80k dps, no one cares about it, no one even really notices if you have it on your bars or not, and sure enough no one will pick you over bloodlust/cr/int/shout for it.
Trying to argue that WoG is reason to get invited over a mage, is like a mage trying to argue that when he novas 5 Spiteful Sprites, he should be praised as if he did enough healing to heal someone facetanking those 5 shades. Yeah, the nova helped, but the main reason mages are invited right now is they bring Bloodlust AND int buff AND 80k 1min cd combusts. Not because they bring frost nova. You know the bar for rets is set low when the main arguement to bring one is the equivalent of frost nova.
If you make a nice play with your wog (or VE or frost nova) and save your party some trouble because of it, good for you, playing your character as well as possible -however low utility said character might have- is one of the most satisfying things in this game. But don’t expect to get invites for that, because that was some good reaction and quick thinking, not the main way the group progresses in the dungeon. The group progresses when your moonkin has cds and melts the pack in 12 sec, not when your moonkin uses Heart of the Wild and offheals.
Exactly. Ret can dish out damage but it’s double risky while doing that. Best M+ build would have Ashen Hallow - high risk of ninja pulls and Tempest of the Lightbringer which adds even more risk of ninja pulls. So having Ret in party may be a risk in itself.
Also like you said Ret has nothing other than damage and cannot help others to bring more damage - and that pretty much sums up that Ret has ~~0 utility in PVE. So not exactly top damage, builds that may be highly risky in narrow places and lack of any utility that you would expect from DPS other than single target stun and two highly retarded hard CCs.
I agree with rework.
I want to see something different already
I’m bored how retribution paladin is right now…
I really loved CATA/MOP ret and no not because of exorcism
Ret needs to go back to its roots or get a complete redesign, the modifiers this spec have is unbelievable.
Judgment - 25% spender increase.
Righteous Verdict - 15% TV increase.
Vengeance Aura - 12% holy dmg increase.
Seraphim - 21% dmg increase to holy damage in total.
Avenging Wrath - 20% damage increase.
Final Reckoning - 50% increase to spenders.
Templar’s Vindication - X chance for TV to strike again for 30% damage.
These all stack with each other lmfao.
Yeah, too much stacking modifiers, not enough base abilities to keep it all more even. Does any other spec behave this way?
IMO it’s just lazy design. Entire spec is basically 2 skills and everything else is a modifier for these two lol.
Ret seems really good for low keys, but pointless for high keys. As has been pointed out multiple times before, our defensive capabilities and off-healing get less and less useful on higher keys, as the healer and tank handle it on their own. In many cases, mistakes tend to lead to people into getting one-shot without the possibility of a BOP or LoH save. Even bubble isn’t that good; I’d take Cheat Death over Divine Shield any day of the week. Most of the time I use bubble is when I risk taking agro from a Seraphim+Avenging Wrath burst.
Thats another construction site in Shadowlands. Actually you need to use Bubble on every 1 min cd burst (no matter if Boss or Trash) when the tank isn’t a DH. Heck I even made a Macro with /say “taunt please” whenever I use my Bubble. Unfortunately Bubble has a 3.5/5 min cd. Sometimes I use my BoP for that but I would rather keep it for the moment healer gets aggro cuz someone added some mobs.
This lol, just screams bad class design all over.
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