Well somehow people see number i can’t ever see. i usually play every healer every expansion (not this time because bfa is alt unfirndly). I see people claiming you can crit for 200k+ or judgement for 80k but when i play X class for example hpala with tripple judgement trait i never see so big crits, srsly NEVER.
Ofc there are ppl like cdew that like to make sh.itstorm like with that rogue one-shot video where he equipped items with big procs just to show bug crit on yt. This will never happen in arena.
Rogue and mage are both blizzard’s favourite classes, there was no expansion or season when rmx wasn’t working. Even turbo that was most braindead comp in some seasons isn;t working but rmx is. It will always be like this.
Not really, since I’m not the biased one. And your ratings don’t allow you to call anyone clueless btw.
Indeed, but have you seen me writing “nerf selfheal”? Obviously not, since they don’t have much selfheal (and that would also be the overkill for those classes. Imagine mage/rogue with regular selfheal, noone would play anything else anymore!). That doesn’t mean that the key is their healer, since RMX still cracks dampening combos with a lot more selfheal, right?
So is it really the X who keeps RM alive, while he can’t keep others alive vs RM? Or does it mean that their defense is great and don’t require any selfheal? Exactly, it means that their defense comes from kiting (root, slows on high range, blink, sprint, step, etc.) , control (stuns, polies, etc.) and cds (like evasion, block, vanish) - only a bit selfheal like temp shield and stuff. So most of your defense is also dampening free.
I mean, even you must have realized, that most rmxs can easily go to deep dampening since bfa. How comes if their defense wouldn’t be great? How comes they still win vs comps in deep dampening that have a lot more selfheal (like TWD for example).
Just use your fkn godgiven brain and don’t waste time with pointless arguments.
I didn’t explicitly write both hpala and rdruid spells each time but I mentionned 3 times both these healers have their lay on hands on 25s cd which is one of the very important details making rmd or rmpala so durable.
Yes it is ? Ever seen the healing scoreboard vs enely damage done ? It’s most certainly the X keeping people alive, while against rm it struggles if people so not have self heals because the X is cc’ed half the time so nerfing healers would make the X struggle to heal rm while healing another team… In cc he heals 0 anyways and the guys rely a lot more on self heals so having a cc’ed healer nerfed won’t change things much while it will be felt by rm teams.
Yes, they can since BfA BECAUSE their CC defense which you listed, and was here before, remained, and they were given godlike healers on top of it. The godlike healer wasn’t here before and it was normal to defend with hit and run, or hit and peel, strategies. Nerf healers, back as before bfa.
It was an exaggeration yes, but got hit for 60-65k and I’m not joking right now. 442 pally. It wasn’t fun at all.
Also he was playing the behemoth trinket 60k+14k(trinket)+20k holy shock
Gosh, how can you be so stupid and try to avoid any nerfs for RM?!?!?!
Sure, they don’t heal anything while being cc’d, but if they can’t even top after without using cds it will result in a buff for RM. I mean, how often do you see a RMX struggeling due of mana or something? Do you really think a X nerf would end up in a real nerf for RMX other comps could use to kill them? Or will it just end in faster games with the same result?! Ye, I’m pretty sure I won’t be a nerf for RM, but for everyone else!
Again: If you want to fix RMX, nerf RM. Either their control or their cds/kiting abilities. That would generate 10 times more pressure to them!
Ye, so RM can kill anyone, even if they fûcked up their cc. Gosh, you guy are so braindead.
But okay, let me answer serious: In my opinion, they should start with nerfing the control. Reduce poly, ring, blind and sap to 6 sec duration, cyclone/hoj to 5 sec, kidney also to 5 sec and 30 sec cd and last but not least, reduce duration of roots and slow effects (poison/frost spells).
This would result in a lot more pressure on RMX and with this, we could start talking about nerfing the healer as well, to reduce the time in dampening.
P. S.: If you are thinking about nerfing spam fear of locks then as well, I agree.
P.P.S.: If you still don’t agree, just ask yourself an easy question. Why is RM a very viable comp in 2s, but you barely see stuff like ww+dk for example, even if their selfheal is like 10 times better? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that Rdruid or Hpala are fine, I’m just saying that the major issue of RMX still is RM.
I’m not. As a matter of fact I said it multiple times.
So you see it well :
Now id you could stop being a spoiled brat that would be nice. First thing would to be to read and understand if you plan on answering and criticizing. Now, you’re free to ignore my posts but then don’t answer to them either. In the end if you are unable to see when I type “they will require nerfs” I can’t do anything. It’s there. It’s written. Now if you’ve decided that I was the evil RM knight despite the fact that I wrote that, live on with that thought and stop bother me, we’ll both be happier. Your personal issue with me, whatever it might be, is showing me and more. Try to act civil and adult.
Yes I really think that otherwise I would bot have written it ! Done with the silly questions ? Tell you what, you should play RMD and RMPala as the Rogue or the Mage yourself and understand why you win so much. I’ll spoil. As RMPala you will win so much because outside your goes, outside your set ups the Pala can LoH you every 25s, has two bops, and has a sac. Also you can freely cast GP under BoP against double melee, even if there’s a DK now you only get to fake one interrupt and are immune to the rest. The sheer power of Paladin heals and CDs allow the Mage to cast so much of this dumb spell, or at higher level so much sheep fireball (#IhalftheCDofCombsutionlol) that in the end you just don’t die even when you don’t score your sheeps because, again, LoH every 25s and that wall of CDs. The Rogue won’t die either because the LoS goes gor him too, and if the Mage is in a BoP and the enely team turns on the Rogue the Mage can freecast sheep or ring. It feels legit impossible to die compared to RMP of older expansions. That’s just a fact. You lay disagree but in the end every person with 2+IQ will notice this when watching RMPala.
As for RMD ? Same LoH on 25s CD but also has two charged just to be sure. Also Ironbark, insane defensive cooldown with a cooldown rivaling Life Cocoon, it’s very hard to die. Also, your Druid drink, gets CC’ed, or does something else, Cyclone, Cat Form, a coffee? No big deal, current mastery scaling allows his hots to negate the damage of a double dps team for sometime if you have thel all applied. And when you’re dropping ? SotF 150k heeeey.
Seriously play those as Rogue or Mage. It feels like Godmode compared to older versions of the comp. You can afford to take damage. You can fail set ups it’s no big deal if they aren’t cc’ed you tank the damage. You can chase like an imbecile nd pull back right before dying, Swiftmend into Regrowth will top you just like Divine Favor would. You could bother asking Rogues and Mages who actually have tournament experience and who you haven’t labelled because you need to vent your frustration. I’d bet they’d answer shimmer, gp, Elusiveness and a couple other things are overtuned and then that healing is dumb op and nothing dies before dampening and is too forgiving. Just ask someone very, very good, listen to hil regardless of whether it’s what I just said and stop talking to me if you’ve decided not to listen no matter what I say in the end.
Although I do not agree with everything CC spamming in wow is becoming (has become?) kind of annoying really. In swtor for example the cc system to be imlube to cc is different and there is nothing you can spam, making the use of the cc spells we have important and avoiding situations like triple stunning peoole into fear fear poly poly aka you don’t play for 30s and nothing you can do. I don’t believe the cc durations are the issue themselves but the endless spam of some cc like clone, sheep fear or even cheap shot are not good in the current game. But removing that would also require a hard nerf to every heal in the game, self healing and healer healing. The game would end up more dynamic, peoole would do stuff and thr right cc at the right tile with low heals and high damage would be a kill.
Because RM has enoug CC without the broken healing to try and kill before being slain with the first three set ups. They cc in opener and take no damage, you have your go because DRs, they use their big defensives and/or kite, second go on you, if you live through it they have a good chance at dying depending on what you play and last, third go if you survive you should be able to kill for sure, a RM not killing in 3 set ups and then winning later is extremely rare. The 3s brings a healer not to retreat in between goes and to keep going after the third one.
Ww DK in 2s however only have self healing. Healing is reduced by 20% when a 2s game starts. They already are at a disadvantage, and a major one. The way the self-healing helps in 3s is to be used during a cc chain on the healer to survive. They won’t have a healer after the time of a cc chain has elapsed in 2s, and will die.
In the end RM lasts a couple minutes because they cc and they stall and it’s easy to do with only two enemies , much harder to stop damage completely with a third player. They take damage little by little and so the lack of healer can be okay. WW DK teams are already amputated of part of their self-healing when gates open and aren’t designed to stall and avoid damage, they are designed to be able to handle some damage alone. Not a couple minutes worth of damage with -20% selfhealing alone. RM isn’t designed to handle some damage but to avoid it. This ks why they are succesful at 2s. Since there is no healer damage is permanent, and they can avoid it. Ww DK cannot, and because no healer + butchered self healing damage is close to permanent and so they die because they tank it.
Sorry, I would love to, but I can’t resist when I see so much idiocy at once.
I actually just wanted a confirmation about if you are trolling or stupid, got my answer I guess.
I mean, what kind of person you have to be to think if RMX is too dominate vs ABX, CDX and EFX a good idea is to nerf X. In what reality does that make sense?! (That’s not a question btw, just in the likely case you haven’t gotten it…)
Okay, since you got nicer, I will also try to be nicer. There are several systems how to fix the spam cc. System like in swtor is one example, but blizz obviously don’t like the idea. Nerfing the general duration isn’t maybe a great solution, but on the other side it allows to finetune cc for classes without changing the general system.
About the requirement to nerf heal, I agree’d to that, but personally I would prefer another solution. Keep healing high, reduce cc a bit and increase overall dmg (after finetuning/balancing dmg in general). CC should be a requirement to kill someone, if you messed something up (the setup, def cd usage, whatever) you should be punished hard for it. Would bring back some skill into the game imo.
Indeed, enough CC to keep alive. That’s the issue in my opinion. As I’ve said, it’s not like I say HPala or Rdruid are balanced and fine, I just say that RM is the major problem we should take care off first, before we are talking about how we should deal with the healer. Nerfing the X right away without changing RM wouldn’t make a difference in the result (remember the RMX vs ABX, CDX, EFX, …).
Just a pictorial example: When your jacket catches fire, do you take off your jacket or do you go to get the fire extinguisher first?
For your argumentation to be true one needs to be able to replace x with any healer in game and rm should still be fine.
But that’s not the case, is it?
Shadenox arguments does seem like the stronger ones, no matter what your feelings are about him.
Well, aren’t they? The problem that rmpala or rmd is stronger than rmpriest etc. is based on healer balancing.
Sure, some comps works better with healer x than healer y. A shaman with RM for example wouldn’t bring any benefit compared to the pala/druid/priest. Hex shares dr with poly, they already have enough control+interrupts, so kick/grounding don’t bring that much, shamans barely have any damage and the rest isn’t as strong enough as the benefit from the other healer.
But that doesn’t mean that the logic behind it is wrong. Beside that RMShaman would probably viable vs most wizzardcleaves and other comps (except for RM with another healer) it would also otherwise mean, that only RM benefits from those healer. That isn’t true and it would also still be an argument for nerf/change RM, wouldn’t it?
Priests are heavily gear dependent. They basically need r3 crucible/ good gear to do anything. Moreso than anyone else I think. Guess dk nerf buffs them too
Then, since RMPala dominates RLS lets nerf nerf only Mage and Holy Pala, and any other comp featuring a Rogue that isn’t RMX for that matter. Rogues are obviously not the issue. Oh, and since RMPala also dominates Mage Warrior Druid (played last tournament, just in case) or any other comp featuring a Mage that isn’t RMX, then the Mage cannot be nerfed, leaving Rogue and Holy Pala. But we excluded the Rogue from the nerf list with your reasoning. And you excluded the healer.
Don’t you realize ? RMX dominates ABX, but it also dominates RAB and AMB. The only comps that currently have good odds against RMX are DKDH comps as well as Jungle, mostly. Maybe a few more but overall the rest is slightlt behind. And as you can see, in those comps, no rogue, no mage. With your reasoning we shouldn’t nerf Rogues, Mages and their healers ??? You can’t possibly miss the fact that RMX dominates everything featuring their classes and not playing RMX. You just happened to apply your reasoning to RMX beating ABX and whatever because you reallyx really would love to see a nerf only to RM, but in the end the very same can be said for RAB and MAB being squashed by RMX.
Works too, in the end as long as the damage power / healing power ratio gets higer than it is now it’s fine.
The problem with your way of doing stuff id this. Healing issue, especially Divine Favor and SotF are game wide issue. I do believe they benefit RMX more than they benefit, say, DK DH Rdruid but at the end of the day they remain game wide issue not tied to RMX whatsoever. So, in order to have a game where matches don’t go to 60% dampening everytime at some point we’ll need that healer nerf. That much is pretty clear. Now onto the RM issue. RMX, mostly RMP and RMD have always been good because they’ve always had their CC which they use on healer to set up kills, on off target too if possible, and then on kil’ target to stall until next set up in order not to get blasted into oblivion because they can’t tank damage.
Today they have kept that strength plus the healers now allow them to take that damage. So they can be agressive, they can mess up, etc etc. Nerfing RM MIGHT solve the issue. But then you can no longer nerf healing or you kill off the comp because they won’t have heals and won’t be able to kite and stall and run. So if your goal was to make rm go back in line you’d have failed, you killed it, not fixed it. And because the healing issue isn’t RM exlusive it should really be done first, then we have a look at the entire game, and nerf remaining overpowered comps (if there are any that remain op, RM in your mind) accordingly to fit with the new healer powerlevel. Since we’d need that healer nerf to have a better game overall and since it’d hit rm hard in the face, if you do want the healing nerf to not be bored into dampening AND want RM nerfed then you do the game wide one first, look at the consequences on rm (since you know there’s an impact) and then tune the remains accordingly. That’s a step by step approach. Game wide things first, then fix details that are still out of place. The only issue is that current blizzard team is slow at balancing and so will most likely not go towards that solution, or will do it over 6 months.
Haven’t said the opposite or something, but the way you want to go forward would result in a indirect buff for RMX in its current state. That’s not something the majority wants, I guess.
Kidney is an issue, it’s just too strong combined with their damage. Game often ends up in Mage/Healer cc, Mage does 15-20% of the hp bar, rogue the rest - while the victims often just see their hp bar smelting while sitting in a 6 sec stun.
No stun should hold for 6 sec, especially on a 20 sec cd - at least in this current game design. Would make the game maybe slower (since setups wouldn’t change) but would fix some issue comps.
Or just buff the S - which they have done.
I know, and I earlier already said “its a small step into the right direction” but you obviously haven’t read it.
Nah, I’ve always said that in my opinion healer power benefits fragile comps like RMX more than the rest. I don’t know where you saw me claiming otherwise.
As for the rest you quoted 4 words out of a paragraph that used your own logic and commented on it.
Now while this is true :
This is totally wrong :
Sometimes the Rogue does more sometimes the Mage sometimes they do the same. If you believe that Meteor into Blast Blast (off GCD) Pyro Blast Pyro is a combo that deals less damage than tb envenom mfd envenom well… Same with a Frost Mage, they save stuff for their goes and always have several of Comet Stormx Ice Nova, Shattered Frost Bolt with 5 Icicles, Ice Lance with Procs, Frozen Orb. All of these are on super low CD and will be here every Kidney, Orb every 2 Kidneys provided it’s not reset a lot. And there is Ray of Frost sometimes too. This is insane burst damage.
Again as I suggested you should play the comp as Rogue or Mage and look at those damage ratios on kills, you’ll notice if the Mage has his little CDs on the Kidney the damage is FAR from 20% of what is done. Very far.
They also buffed the L… But that wasn’t the point. We were talking about your logic of " Since RMX wins every ABX nerf RM" when in truth every RMX also beats every RAB and every MAB which means, purely following your logic, that the problem is either ABs or RMX as a whole, but not only RM. And then we agree healers are an issue, so why not nerf them first, back to what I was saying, game wide issue and whatnot, to be fixed FIRST.
I actually did but I have to admit I didn’t register that it was actually in the hotfixe wave and so wrote it again.
All my little examples were actually made to lead you to the point of understanding -> why is RM viable in 2s? Because their control is enough to keep them alive. It’s the same in 3s! You came up with scoreboard compares that their healer does 90% of the healing, but that’s obviously doesn’t mean that their defense is weak (otherwise RM wouldn’t be viable at all in 2s).
Sure, they can’t play without a healer, but the difference that has changed to previous expansions is, that they kept nearly all their cc (drop deepfreeze to get shimmer which is actually better than the stun), got more kiting, but most other classes dropped possibilities to stop cc and often mobility as well.
So the issue isn’t the healer who is able to keep RM alive in the first place, it’s RM itself which has enough to stay alive. Healers maybe just allow them to stay offensive 24/7 while they maybe would need to reset from time to time if they were weaker - anyways, if comp X is dominating comp Y and Z and you nerf all three of them, comp X will still dominate the other.
If that’s true, it’s another reason to reduce CC of mage. If the cc monster even outdamage an assa rogue, there is no point in not reducing the dmg in PvP.
Well, I suggest you to play other stuff on serious ratings (not rogue and deffo not RMX) and see how it feels to play versus this comp/class - than you see why everyone is crying and why healers aren’t the issue in the first place!
I would know why everyone is crying since I mostly play non rmx comps in its current iteration as it’s not super fun yet I still believe healing is a major issue. Lets be clear on one point. If RMX does one go, get you cds, second go, get the rest of said cds, do a third go and kill you you lose. Simplified stuff, games are longer in real. If you’re the defending team, take a beating, and CANNOT RESPOND because you’re on the backfoot, any damage gets healed like it wasn’t there, so you have no real counterpressure and boom they set uo again already, you almost feel like you’re still in the previous set up since you couldn’t recuperate and fight back, and the set ups are EASY to get because you can keep pushing and not die as RMX right now so you’ll be ready to stun or kick in melee the dots will be up the mage will have procs waiting…
If, when you counterattack, you were to hurt the RMX for real they couldn’t do all that. They’d have to work, perhaps even use cds to set up again instead of just walking up to you and hey, here is a go. But right now until 25% you can’t counterattack efficiently, they heal it, no pressure on them. This comp is supposed to be pressured by damage on its weak dps, and pressure with cc in return. Currently there aren’t pressured by damage until very late.
Well seeing as I first got to 2.6 as Thug Cleave before dropping with a Mage friend and going back to it as RMP I do know how it feels to fight against RMX when it’s powerful. And for playing vs and playing it, even though I’m far from the insane R1 Blizzcon player I believe I have a better decent feel of it. Thank you for worrying.
I’ll repeat in hopes it goes through even though you just won’t agree. RM also got an additional layer of defense that they aren’t meant to have in those OP Rdruids and Holy Palas. Remove that layer of defense and they have only the CC left. Right now they don’t die because when the CC isn’t perfect or is countered or just on DR there are incredible heals to negate the damage, while it shouldn’t be the case. No CC, big damage, big trouble should be their fate.
Exactly ! They can defend themselves ! But they have to balance defensive and offensive CC and do good set ups so that the enemies go out of cds and evetually die to a set up. In the present since RM can keep being aggressive outside of set ups thanks to healers, enemies need cds during set ups and in between and that means they die because at one point no cds remain if you need to blow them like that.
So yeah, healers allowing them to always attack ans never back down and never worry about damage that should be a serious threat is a real issue.
Again, we might just never share the same opinion on this, I feel like I’ve expressed mine enough, you did too, some people will agree with you, me, or neither and oir lives won’t be changed.
I see, so while this comp has a higher skill cap (which always means they have more possibilities! people often forget to see that) it’s fine that they are so strong? What kind of argumentation is that?
But you only watch onto RMX. How about the other comps playing with a Rdruid/Hpal. What happens to them if you remove this layer of defense?! As I’ve said, it will weaken RMX, but also the other comps - so in the end it won’t change anything!
Too lazy and too busy to comment the rest - since you won’t agree anyways!
No. You missed it. It’s fine when they don’t have LoH on 25s CD on their team, don’t have Shimmer and don’t have Elusiveness because then there is a nice skill cap and some coordination to have, it’s strong on it’s CC strength but with a weakness to overtaking damage to the face since you’re not ubkillable anymore, you can stall, but not as much as now and if you don’t suceed in killing wity perfect set ups you lose. That’s how it would/should be without healing and without shimmer/elusiveness allowing unnecessary defense and stupid plays.
I believe comps with a lot of healing coming from self healing abilities such as Death Strike or with a lot of hybrids such as Ret, Ele, Shadow, will suffer way less to a healer nerf because overall they lose less of their healing than RMX. So, in my opinion a healer nerf would reduce (we could dream it erases it but that is unrealistic) the power gap between RMX and some of the other comps. Everyone would be weakened, but other comps would be less weakened.
Your point would be totally valid if every comp was be nerfed exactly the same way should Divine Favor leave the game. But different comps are, well, different and will not be affected the same way.
Gosh, you guy are so braindead.
