Rogue gameplay is weird - A feedback post

[Warriorulf-argent-dawn]

Hey all, just wanted to share my thoughts on the current state of the rogue class (mostly outlaw and sub) and curious of how you guys see it.
A little background I’ve been playing since TBC on and off (aside from WOD and BFA), have played most classes and I understand how their resources and rotations work. I preface this as I will compare the rogue to other classes/specs.

Now all that being said, the issue: rogue gameplay feels broken. I love everything else: the transmogs, the weapons, the fantasy elements all good. But the gameplay feels outdated compared to other classes. Meaning: to much effort and input for some rather mediocre response.

Playing monk and ret made me realize what I felt was off about rogue gameplay: to many combo points and low dmg when spending them (not rewarding).
WW monks and rets can generate 4-5 “combo units” but their spenders cost 2-3 units. This means they can pool their combo units for a powerful burst rotation, as they can hit 2 heavy hitting finishers while weaving in a builder or two in a short time frame.
This feels powerful and smooth (punch > rising sun kick > expel harm > fist of furry or on ret side judgement > blade of justice > final verdict > judgement > final verdict) and interacts well with talents that enable you to duplicate the heavy hitter or make it free. These burst windows are controlled through cd: monks have cd on finishers while rets have cd for builders so they can’t spam it non stop.

Now on the rogue side, our finishers (eviscerate and all it’s forms, rupture) and builders have no cd, just energy cost. But thanks to a lot of talents, you can get to full combo points with 1 ability (shadow strike, outlaw ambush proc, pistol shot proc) making energy requirements not that important (not saying that pooling energy is not important, but you can do a rotation without worrying about going “oom”).
The difference here is that our finishers don’t really hit that hard. This leaves us in a particular situation where there is no significant dmg change between some builders and spenders, making spenders feel like a builder with extra steps. Which then brings the need of powerful dmg cd like Deathmark or Secret Technique (rip outlaw killing spree). So now, I am semi useless while waiting for the dmg cd, as the rest of my damage toolkit is mehh.
This overall makes the rogue feel like janky and weak in gameplay. A lot of procs to hit, buffs to keep, debuffs to add, for far to little result (outlaw rng bonanza).

Proposal for fix:

• Combo points now limited to 5-6
• Finishers now have just 3 levels ( 1 cp, 2cp, 3cp cost and finisher effect)
• Finishers dmg now higher but can be used less often
• Builders now generate only 1 or 2 combo points (example: sinister strike/backstab 1cp; proc pistol shot/proc ambush/shadow-strike 2cp)
• There are no other talents that give random combo points > no more rng
• You can now add talents that proc an ability for free or usable without stealth (this for sub as outlaw already has this)
• You no longer need heavy hitting extra dmg cd’s, they can be toned down and their cd lowered (example: lower dmg version of 1min Deathmark or a weaker 20sec secret tech or 1 min killing spree that is a bit stronger).
• Totally off topic fix: make slice and dice passive (all specs have a way to “automate” this ability, through envenom, premeditation or roll the bones proc). This ability is just an unfun maintenance. Just make it passive, or remove it. Sorry, I hate this ability.
  An example would be TBC or WOTLK era rogue: eviscerate felt good, you built up to it and it hit as much as a Mortal strike (arms war ability). You couldn’t spam it, if you would be decent you could hit 2 of them in a kidney but that’s it. That is what i want, i want eviscerates that matters, that feels good, that is not available at every second ability but one which hits like a truck. I think feral druid is still keeping this kind of feel with Rip and Bite. Both of those druid finishers still feel good.

That’s it. I don’t expect the dmg to be as high as monks or rets (we have control to compensate for that), but it would make for a more fluid experience. It would also be easy to balance (so rogues don’t ping pong between overpowered and overnerfed). You might argue this change is bad and it would make the rogue even less fun, but to those I say: how low can we go? We are already the least played class in the game (evoker is still new so I don’t count them, but they are officially the last), some change I feel is needed.

What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree, and why? Curious how others see it.

Cheers!

[Palumtra-alakir]

I’m assuming you talk about PvP because Sub right now is one of the top performing classes in Mythic+ (dunno about raiding, not into it)
As for PvP Rogue is indeed in a niche postition right now, and the upcoming nerf to Crowd Control across the board will not help with it for sure.
As for the combo point system, while what you said is true, but all specs have workarounds: Sub can build combo points and energy just by basic attacking, Outlaw has better energy regeneration and can cheat with its cooldowns and Assasinations long beeds create a constant pressure even when low on energy/cp, all specs have access to Marked for Death (instnat 5 cp) and the infamous former Kyrian Anima Power, Echoing Reprimand.
The main problem with Rogue PvP in general is that Blizzard sucks at balancing it, it’s either broken OP or dances on the edge of usefulness.

[Evolixe-defias-brotherhood]

I don’t really feel weak, or that my rotation is clunky

There is something to be said for cooldowns not feeling very impactful, sure.
But then it’s already improved a lot since shadowlands and it seems like its being worked on.

Honestly I think the gameplay is pretty solid at the moment

[Thistlebrew-argent-dawn]

I don’t PvP but I think the OPs concerns are valid (for Outlaw at least which I play the most). Its not even an output thing, its more how your buttons feel when you press them.

I tried the new ret for a bit and their buttons feel impactful. You have a couple of builders that aren’t too strong on their own but when you use a finisher it feels satisfying. You pop your (1min) cd and you do a lot more damage. Very straightforward and smooth. You also have no maintenance buffs.

Meanwhile, outlaw you have roll the bones, blade flurry, slice and dice to maintain as zdps buffs - you have to just press these buttons every so often and some even cost combo points. You also have between the eyes to maintain which makes target swapping awkward as well as being in essence another maintenance buff.

You have to spam the hell out of your builders and spenders, and builders feel like they either do nothing (e.g. sinister strike, blade rush) or do as much as your main spender (ambush and pistol shot). And while energy is not usually a problem, you do have those moments where you can’t even press a pitiful builder while you wait for energy regen.

You have a 3min cd that’s not really a 3min cd and it obviously increases your sustained dps but it doesn’t give you any burst damage that a 3min cooldown might imply. Additionally, you’re among the worst PI targets in the game and PI or lust doesn’t change how your buttons feels at all.

And on top of all this you’re target capped (but not compensated by being better than all other uncapped specs on lower target counts). Plus any downtime is severely punished by both being a sustained spec and an over reliance on CDR mechanics.

[Ilyon-silvermoon]

I think only slice and dice is unfun to keep up.

I think grand melee should be made baseline, for all specs, and then they should rework some of the buffs for roll the bones, so they are more fun, grand melee included.

For example.

Grand melee should make your main gauche strike twice when it procs. Or further increase your attack speed, or when you proc main gauche you proc pistol shot.

Buried treasure should give you 1 extra combo point as well as more regen.

The others are fine.

[Thistlebrew-argent-dawn]

I also forgot that in 10.1, the raid will be mostly the ST build which means you take thistle tea, ghostly strike and either dreadblades or killing spree - more abilities that you have to squeeze onto your bars that barely feel like they do anything. At least dreadblades is kind of interesting but it has a HP penalty for some reason? Unless its going to put outlaw up top of the ST charts i don’t know why they still have downsides to abilities like that.

[Warriorulf-argent-dawn]

Exactly. You described it better then I did. But yeah, I have the exact feeling with outlaw: of wack o’mole at 200km/h with mediocre impacts/response.

[Thistlebrew-argent-dawn]

I’d like to clarify I’m not saying that abilities like BtE should be removed, but they should feel more impactful. For example, make it a 2m cd and when you use correctly it can push your damage up above and beyond what you normally do. Currently you’re balanced around having 100% uptime on it so its just another thing you have to maintain and then you’re penalised if its on cd when the target dies and you swap to something else. Even if BtE was the only thing you had to keep up it wouldn’t be too bad, but to have 3+ other buffs to maintain its too many gcds that feel empty.

Another example is blade flurry, make it last longer with a longer cd and/or actually do a huge spike in damage when pressed and not a pitiful token amount like it currently does, or just make it a toggle. Having to press it every 15 seconds along with everything else just feels clunky.

[Mirlin-turalyon]

Yh i feel the same, my rotation goes super fast and always changing, for this amount of work most classes would get away with way less efford.
It alaways boils down to one question, why would you work so hard to make a spec work when you can get the same result with another spec and way more forgiving.