I don’t agree. Everyone who has done mythic progression this tier knows how much easier multiple AMZs make the fights. It’s a HUGE deal. AMZ is better than many healer CDs. So if AMZ is left as it is, we will still see DK stacking next tier unless Blizzard make the encounters based on very little magic damage.
Did you read anything else in my post at all?
You literally snip out one thing completely out of context and comment only on that.
I put a great deal of effort in my post explaining how we could prevent class stacking from happening.
With the current class designers i believe our raid buff will be something like “Greet all raid players and wish them good luck. Auto remove from the raid after 30 seconds”
I was talking strictly external abilities. Things that can help others or the entire raid deal with a fight. Rogues have plenty of personal utility and CC that can be used on ads, but if the fight design stays the same that just won’t cut it.
Being able to CR is usually not an issue, so I just left it out.
You’re absolutely right that Blizzard have given pretty much everybody powerful personal utility, which used to be the rogue niche.
What is the class not doing though? The damage is there after the buffs. The personal utility and CC is there. The mobility is there. Sure, maybe you could clean up the rotation a bit, but that’s mostly it.
It’s literally the same old rogue that we’ve known and loved for several expansions, which is kinda the problem. Other classes have evolved a lot, especially in the external department, but rogue has stayed mostly the same.
I haven’t really seen this DK stacking you’re talking about. It’s typically 1 or 2 DKs per raid, which is over-representative for a melee, sure, but hardly stacking, considering DKs started the tier as a super-meta class.
The AMZ nerf, direct or indirect, is probably coming regardless, though.
What you have to realise is that the impact of these abilities can far outscale the magnitude of personal impact alone. Clearing Xymox traps every 45 seconds plus ANOTHER cooldown to fall back to for example, is absolutely huge.
You can’t just look at AMS and be like “ok nice short cd personal” because it can and often does show to have a much bigger potential than just that alone.
Gonna take a wild guess here but based on what buffs we previously brought here are my takes:
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If it’s an aura: +5% secondary stat (or maybe 2x +3% aka two stats who knows) buff to everyone in group / raid, 40y range.
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If it’s tied to poisons: can’t be “+ X% dmg taken” type since DH / monk cover this already. Perhaps something along the lines of “Enemies affected by your poisons deal X% less damage for 15 seconds”. Or maybe a 10s proc on primary stat for anyone attacking your poisoned target.
Yes I did read your post 
My point is that AMZ is so strong that you will still stack DKs even if you remove their CR etc. So you cannot leave AMZ as it is.
Rogues don’t lack in this aspect though. The ability to deal with raid mechanics via personal abilities has always been a strength of the class, and it still is. The problem is with the raid design of CN. Most abilities seem to be specifically designed to screw over rogues by being physical or otherwise hard / impossible for the class to deal with (e.g. mythic Huntsman arrow soaks being physical and not being able to be soaked with Cheat Death).
This, in combination with mediocre damage early in the tier, is what highlighted the massive weakness of the class - the complete lack of useful external raid utility that would make somebody want a rogue in their raid. As long as there is another reason besides DPS and personal CDs to bring a rogue the class will be fine, but right now there isn’t. This is entirely unique to rogue, as other melee classes have either always brought some critical raid utility (warriors) or have had utility added to them in SL (DKs).
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How can you say that when you’ve got something similar on less than half the cooldown?
And on top of that have a world of things that are useful in a raid environment.
It quite simply isn’t. And the way we view the usefulness of these abilities has also changed. Being a class that’s hard to kill is no longer considered useful since “not dying” is something that is a base premise from literally every individual in the raid.
Having something that could ignore a mechanic on a group wide level would at least be useful in a raid setting. Our present survivability toolkit is something extremely niche and not something you will be brought to a raid for.
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Don’t wanna be mean, but dps paladin, monks, shamans and druids are not bringing relevant utility whatsoever and they tend to perform poorly in terms of output. Many specs deserve an actual meaningful raid utility spell.
If enhancement was a little better it would definitely bring value in windfury. And monks perform anything but poorly which is why they are presently the favorite for the one “undetermined” melee slot.
But in the grand scheme you have a point and mostly all melee need to be adressed. But this isn’t the “all melee” section, this is the “rogue” section. And as such I advocate for rogues.
I m not sure if Dev team keep their promises to giving us a raid utility. In addition my thoughts are still same. They either give us %5 haste raid buff and also providing %5 crit chance on poisioned target or make the rogue deal the most part of damage (by increasing damage by buffs more ). If these two option are not considered Rogues in general will face CN v2. But still we are in early process of patch i ll remain silent and watch.
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rets have sac, bop and loh, even wog if you want to. all those things scale well into having multiple paladins. monks at least have mystic touch, though that only needs 1 monk and may well be brought by someone else. enhance has wind rush and whatever increases group melee damage, stormlash or whatever i forget. feral has speed roar and CR only i guess, not so great.
utility wise there’s not really any good reason to bring a rogue. we live and die by our damage. we don’t have a buff, we don’t have group tools, we don’t have externals. all we have is personal survivability and yet it turns out other classes outshine us in this category if mechanics work out poorly. for example, see seeds on xymox that mages and hunters deal with much better, dks and even warriors for traps.
rogues are absolutely an outlier in terms of utility.
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Rogues wont need anything they already got everything lol… killing inside on kidney in pvp and topping chärts in pve
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okay but…
points up at OP’s title
pls take your pvp concerns to pvp forum or in another thread dedicated to pvp.
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Ok DH cry baby.
We talk about Raid, nobody care about PvP here.
I’m definitely not saying you’re wrong but just note that Rogue is not just one spec but an entire CLASS that brings nothing to a raid. Other classes got at least one spec which is attractive for raiding. Having to reroll to another class is a lot of work in terms of gearing etc.
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I’m thinking too to reroll another class, but it’s a long long road to go, full of pugs, toxic chat and all stuffs
Depending on the class, it sometimes means changing spec. But changing spec is quite harsh when it’s not the same role, ie going from dps to heal is a really bad experience.
I understand that since I’ve done that in 8.3. Grinding gear and systems was a painful dog crap experience.
Blizzard has to do smth but it’s like they’re reluctant doing so for stupid reasons like “if class/spec is good in pvp, then it will suck for raiding”. Current class design suffers from massive flaws they created and are so reluctant to fix.
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I completely agree. And in general people should be able to play the spec they want to and not feel like a burden for the team.
But I do believe that if you’re a high end raider then you’re really limiting yourself by picking a class based on only one spec. The reason why I play a Rogue and not a Paladin, Monk or DH is because Rogue got 3 dps specs to choose from so it should technically be a safer bet for a player who only want to dps. This is also why Rogue felt so bad this tier, because you had no possibility to make the class more viable which other classes do as long as you’re willing to multispec.
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