Rogues and stealth

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
1

Not sure if it always was like this, it’s my first time playing Rogue but:

Vanish and its “enters into improved stealth for X seconds” and in 2 sec some random non-damaging ability of the opponent reveals you before you can do anything and we get 5 min cooldown on it, right now except PvE to escape from death is not usable.

Not sure what that “improved” means but it is a basic stealth from my humble existence as a rogue.

Non-damaging abilities that reveal:

  • Priests: homosomething revealed me and put me into combat while I was about 20y away from “them”.
  • Warrior shout: reveal
  • Druid roar: reveal
  • Hunter pet (without mark): running after me after entering stealth and he is not even near me.
  • Hunter frost trap/ice “aura” trap with 10km aoe/flare: reveals. and now ofc they can shoot those in combat!
  • In general fear effects: Reveals
  • AoE abilities of almost all classes: Reveal
  • Hoomans just see you as in bright daylight even with improved stealth.

Damaging abilities, ofc. every class has some no-target AoE ability, except ofc. rogues.

So basically only ability is shamans slowing totem that does not reveal rogues.

Also, you enter a fight and in 2 sec you get 3 dots, one fiery fire, hunters mark from 10 kilometers,… and the rogues game is over.

You press vanish, you get revealed, and 5-minute cooldown for no reason.

We cannot dispel any of it, after we do our first attack from stealth (if we manage, due to described above), our stealth is over for us.

All people need to do is not listen to KPOP during battle, hear the “stealth noise” and use an AoE ability to prevent rogues from ambushing them. Or buy a simple potion for improved stealth detection.

Then people start complaining about how OP rogues are while it’s so easy to prevent the ambush, after they prevent it, it’s over as we are weak against magic and right now magic users are the most OP.

So can we get a balancing dispel ability like the cloak of shadows with a few minutes cooldown, so we cannot abuse it after every kill or kill attempt that did not work out?

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Dont mean this in a disrespectful way. But I am actually unsure if you are trolling because Rogues are so insanely op in pvp (1v1) and thus you are making fun of it, or if you are serious.

I can only assume you are serious, but in that case many of what you wrote makes no sense.

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Tell me where do you get 1v1 in SoD?

People in world: PvP disabled
Arenas? There are no arenas and even if there were, arenas are a minimum of 2v2
BGs: people fighting in groups and staying in groups for that reason, not 1v1
STV: People in group fighting with other people in the group, which are ganked by other 3 groups of people.

So try to avoid X people targeting you in that scenario.

Every group fight is full of AoE because it’s fun and prevents rogues from jumping in.

Making us having a choice:
a) try to fight reveled and hope for best (you get dotted, stunned, => dead as close combat with no crowd control and dispel)
b) stay in stealth and get reported for being a afk bot

Not sure if you read everything, but you can easily prevent a rogue from doing his opening on you. And if he cant do his opening, it’s over (if the opponent has more than 2 brain cells)

and the quick burst and 1k ambush works only against under geared cloth users (demo lock is excepton).

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Ok, thats fair. But Rogues were never a “wrecking ball” kind of class, like Rets and Warriors are. You cant really go from 1 target to the next and as long as you have enough support just keep smashing. Rogue is more of a heavy burst control class. And regarding STV sadly all melee suck, but thats more of a general balancing issue, Rogues are probably one of the better melee to bring imo. BGs dont punish melee near as much as STV.

A bit above you mentioned vanish, and then started speaking of stealth. While they seem similar, they are not. It also depends if you are using your vanish in a defensive or offensive way. As well as stealth wise, does your target know you are “around” or not.

Vanish does not have a global, which means if used in an offensive way you have the upper hand, and will execute your combo long before these classes use their stealth breaking mechanics. And if used in a defensive way, then just gauge + vanish after to make sure you are not pulled out (Assuming no dots). Hunter pets dont follow when you vanish from what I remember.

From what I can tell, you want stealth to not be lost after its used, and as well be able to dispel dots and a bunch of other stuff in pvp. On top no one is really using elixirs for increased stealth detection , not really a thing. There is a cleanse potion, not sure if its available atm, but will be later, removes 1 debuff every 5sec for 30sec, same ideology but imo outside of world ganking its equally as flawed.

Tldr: Rogue is very strong, you 100% have more than enough pvp tools to get the job done. But same as Feral (Just a lot better) you are not the guy smashing thru the front lines, for that you have to chose a different class. Target healers and support when the battle starts and the front lines engage. Giving Rogues Cloak… I would not be surprised if it happened later on, Blizzard clearly wants to give Rogues every single op spell they ever had it seems. But take my word for it, if you cant get the job done with what you have now ? Cloak wont make a difference for you.

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Those dastardly Hoomans! Damn them and their eyes that see sneaky trolls!

Vanish has always been finicky as there are plenty of situations where it can fail, you just need to use your experience and use it when it has the highest chance to work.

It requires some finesse and planing your exit and not just hitting the Vanish key-bind in the middle of a melee and expecting to be teleported into a “safe” dimension.

If rogues ever get cloak of shadows while 40 energy mutilate continues to be a thing… at that point the devs will really have lost their marbles.

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Before I say anything, PvP issues against rogues are not using consumables issues. Just like rogues need to sometimes item swap, and drink tea,… so can other classes use potions, but they don’t, and they complain.

They are, seen it multiple times in BG when I tried to take AB flags and someone was defending it. Guy popped potion and suddenly he was able to see me.

Seen priest, attacked him, he dispersed, popped FAP, and then “immune”, “immune”,… by the time dots killed me.

What can rogues/warriors/ferals drink against stealth prevention, instant 1-2.5k nukes and dots? Exactly, nothing.

So basically, they get OP abilities and already existing potions that if you combine rogue have no chance.

Vanish maybe not, basic stealth yes. When I noticed a hunter I used stealth, but he noticed me sooner and just sent pet after me, i was in stealth and pet started to attack me after he got to me.

For both commenters:

While other classes got real OP abilities from runes that can reveal rogues, or do high (1k-2.5k) instant/almost instant spell damage (and now I am not talking only about rogues) melee classes have no defense against all the new spells that they added to others. Melee has no spell resistance. No new defensive abilities.

Mages with a little brain can respec into frost (plus potions), equip stam+intel items instead of intel+sp items, use frost-shield, iceblock, ice snap… and they are already safe from that big scary ambush after that with a little brain they can kite and slowly kill the rogue. Frost mage also cannot be stunlocked.

If you didn’t see a skilled frost mage destroying rogues, warriors, etc. that’s your issue, it does not mean mages are weak, rn. they are second to third best in PvP.

Priests got dispersion that fks up rogues opening (and the funny thing is, that dispersion rune requires rogues help to get it). And even if the rogue kills the priest in a 1v1 fight, dots will finish the rogue by the time he pierces through all the defensive stuff priests got. So a priest with little brain cannot be stunlocked. rn. they are first best in PvP.

Other squishy classes like druids have their own set of toolkit to deal with rogues. They might not always be able to survive opening, but definitely can deal with a less experienced rogue. Making it a fair fight, so here I have no complaints.

The current warlock meta is immortal against rogues, so all rogues avoid fighting it. 500% armor, almost 50% if not more damage reduction from all sources + potions, + lifedrain that is passive and heals for 100+/s does not get canceled by vanish,… immune to sap, with potion immune to stun/slow. instant cast no-cooldown searing pain, pet that can seduce and itßs not trinketable…

Warriors are a tricky fight, but doable. No complaints here.

Problem rogues vs hunters already described in prev post.

But back to my original question!

Is it normal that almost all non-damaging AoE abilities can be reveal from stealth?

How do I protect myself against all classes except shamans and rogues?

As far I know, rn. rogues cant pick fights if there is someone else around.

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Can confirm Vanish is broken. In vanilla it provided a brief moment of immunity as in 1-2 secs, there is none here.

You can literary Vanish now and get out of stealth in the next 0.25 seconds. Brokn asf.

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Thank you for confirming!

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Perplexity uploaded a very good explained pvp guide for advanced rogue players on youtube before 12h ago

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I watched it, I use those talents when I go PvP. But did you see his duels?

None of the enemies used FAP against the opener (and in BG he used). The priest did not use dispersion when stunned. If they do so, he would be dotted and prevent vanish to reset his opening!

All more evidence is that non-rogue players are not used to using potions, if they do well it’s another story. Then rogues: swapping 4 types of weapons, items before fight, activating other items. Meanwhile, mages are surrounded by 5 other people: Whoopsie arcane surge for 2400, hihihihi, lets go on forums saying rogues are OP.

In GB he was, he got 0 dots, Do you know what I get in BG? Feiry fire, agony, sw: pain, living bomb.

When he finally got DoTs, he ended the video, you can see how he was running away and 4 people started to chase him. Why did he not finish the video, what to do if you get chased and have dots? Most probably he got charged by a warrior or dazed by a hunter, but he died for sure, because he had no way to exit that fight.

Those recordings almost feel like: “Can you help me do a quick YouTube video to show how good I am so I have subs and donators for good content?” or “Here are my best moments”

After all, none would watch a rogue streamer that dies and gets a 1:1 (one kill one death) score in 80% of the fights. While priests and mages are insta casting low HP enemies and getting 25:5 in bg stats. Its much more fun to get 4 people down and then dying as its getting one down but then dots and others finish you, making it 1:1.

Jumping around with fancy weapons and effects calming voice acting all mighty to have viewers.

Ambush for 1k works only against mages that are sp+int focused (so low HP), and have no frost shield or mana shield. And even then, I was able to “miss” some, or not get crit and did tops 300dmg, while mage arcane surged me for 1.5k (and have no spell protection against it, non of melee classes have)

Long story short, people who complain about rogues, don’t use potions, for rogues its a must-have to prevent stun during combat like when he got the flag carrier.

So if rogues can use potions, why are people who don’t, cry about rogues being OP? Its a skill issue of others, and not an issue of rogues being OP.

Making it clear that right now rogues are F-tier in pvp in general except few skilled players but boths sides have skilled players, so global stats are what matters, not individuals.

And yet except pure DPS we don’t bring anything to the table in PvE for the group. For example, a 10% stat boost is far more OP in PvE raid than a +30 dps compared to others, because that 10% stat boost will in the end mean bigger overall damage to the boss, making fights shorter, easier to heal, and increasing the chance to clear content.

Rogues need some love from Blizzard. 40 energy mutilate was indeed a nice touch and helps to somehow keep up with others, but without defensive abilities, the 40 energy mutilate is not much use. Mostly good for PvE, bosses don’t use faps, don’t jump around to not get that +20% damage bonus from behind… :smiley: so we can stay visible on DPS meters configured to show the top 5.

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Rogues should get a rune which makes them able to stay in stealth while fighting for 10 min, on a 2 min CD. that would fix rogues and make group pvp pleasant and fun for them

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That’s an amazing idea!

I was thinking about rune like mages have for healing just for rogue:

[Revenant’s Gambit] - Passive | With every precise strike of Mutilate, the rogue deftly strips the enemy’s flesh, using it to mend the wounds of allies. This ability heals for the full damage dealt by Mutilate, bolstered by the rogue’s attack power. Each critical strike with Mutilate reduces its energy cost by 10, accumulating up to 4 times. Additionally, those aided by this mending may inflict “Necrotic Contagion” upon the enemy, a vile affliction that has a chance to poison nearby foes, dealing damage equal to 30% of the restored vitality.

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Hi

Vanish does indeed give “improved” stealth in classic, in fact while vanish is active you effectively have +2 to stealth (meaning mobs won’t see you until you are closer to them)

However classic does have some issues with vanish you should be aware of and play around

1: any melee attack animation happening to you while you vanish that doesn’t hit you until after the vanish happens CAN break the effect, its important to time vanish so that you don’t have white damage from melee attack hit you within 0.2-0.5 seconds of using it. Most experienced classic rogues will ether wait until after an attack animation or move slightly out of melee range to use it.

2: Classic vanish has a bug where sometimes moving will break the effect, not sure what causes it but its easy to avoid by standing still briefly when using it, effectively using it like retail nightelves use shadowmeld. this bug I think is something to do with the issue I mentioned above and most likely has to do with damage taken after vanish is used but don’t take my word for it.

Final note: Rogue is classic has a lot of querks where things don’t necessarily work the way we would reason it does, if you would prefer a smoother kit to play with I recommend going sub, you can do big burst and have a second vanish if classic decides to shoot you in the foot with a bad vanish break :smiley:

also, why are we complaining about class balance in pvp for classic at all? classic wasn’t made for ever class to be equal at every aspect of the game, classic rogues are kings of 1v1 pvp but have nothing on a mage or warlock in group pvp, and thats okay! because in classic every class has something it can do that is broken that no one else can do.

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Thank you, finally a reasonable comment! I will consider this and will see how my play improves.

I have tried sub, but sadly, I can still one-hot only green itemed full sp+int mages that forget to use armor buff and mana/frost shield. Priests survive bursts, if I stun they disperse, warlocks rn playing demo so their damage reduction is insane. Finally, high armor classes survive as well. All they need is a free action potion after the burst (or before they notice me) and they are safe.

I would not complain that much if there were a proper 1v1 or smaller fight content. However, in current pvp content, I can vanish 10 times, yet dots and other stuff would prevent me from doing so.

You seem to have played rogue, can you please give tips for these situations?

Scenario 1: Trying to group fight

Your team fighting from front, and your role as a rogue is to neak up and gank the priest/druid healing in the back right? I go there and I am still in stealth:

a) they use fear because some warr just charged into that group, I get revealed, can’t ambush
b) I use ambush, 50+% of the damage absorbed, they notice me and get dotted.
c) I use stun, one-two mutilates and I am out of energy for 2 seconds., getting dotted.
d) hunter decides to shoot a flare and freezing trap, covering the whole party there
e) paladins just jump around pressing divine storm revealing or they just see me with improved stealth talents

Scenario 2: Trying to protect flag
Waiting for someone to go grab our flag, usually druid in travel form, since he is fast, I have to shadow step on him, but due to global CD of shadow step, he gets out of range to stun/sap him.

I can’t camp in obvious spots because usually there is always a hunter putting flares and traps there.

Scenario 3: Trying to gank someone running to our flag

They are on mount, same as with travel form, I jump there and global cooldown prevents me from doing stun.

From my experience, if I does not open win stunlock combo, but try to do a “big fat ambush” I cannot stun immediately, giving a 1second time to the target to FAP. Then what? Ambush 60 energy, 1 mutilate 40 energy = 100 energy, now I need to wait 1-2 seconds to have 40 energy do something, but since target FAPed, I can’t stun, only autoattack, by the time:

  • warrior: rend, hamstring keep distance, activate 10000% parry chance, overpower, execute
  • mage: living bomb, nova, blink, I shadowstep, iceblock, nova, blink, cold snap.
  • priest: shadow word pain, fear, I trinket, he disperse, you dead from dots.
  • hunter: kill command to stun rogue (if I fap, marks me), uses raptor strike a few times, pet deals me 1400 damage in 10 seconds, hunter deals me another 1400.
  • …

This is 1v1, now mix up the above things into XvY when I get revealed intentionally or unintentionally in a fight (like scenario 1)

I managed to kill a mage, but I was unable to vanish because living bomb and just another person appeared and destroyed me since I had almost all my cooldowns.

So basically I can win a fight only if it’s 1v1 every 5 minutes?

How long WSG is? 10mins tops?

Sadly I have almost 0 impact in BGs, I can maybe slow down someone a little bit by the time it takes them to kill me, but that’s all I can do.

15

It depends on your play style, if you are a dagger rogue then clothys are always on the menu, its plate bois you have to play really cowardly around.

its very easy on sub to get 100% crit openers, big fat ambush bonuses apply to shadow strike in SoD and it turns sub into a monster vs low armor . you ideally want to use vanish offensively to get a second crit proc again in a fight and your aim is to 100%-0 them or use the second vanish to open after defensive CD. doing this does leave you with literally no CDs but its effective dps.

Vs warrior you want to rely on hemo/rupture with crippling poison and try kite his dead zone (between 5-8 yards he can’t charge you or melee you). vs this you want to use your vanish to escape being caught rather than offensive since plate is always going to make it hard for you to one shot them so abuse your control and slow the fight down best you can to be ahead on energy when you trade.

some general rogue advice i can give is abuse the long CC on gouge , its long enough to often los someone and get a free stealth as they can’t get to you in time to tag you, this is why is pretty important as a rogue to pick your fights where you have advantages like this.

Another tip is using distract, a lot of people don’t know this but distract will stop someone eating or drinking and you don’t have to break stealth to use it (its got long range also), you can also be creative with this to trick someone into thinking your the other side of them and make them move towards you or whatever, ise this skill though its so good for mind games when applied well :slight_smile:

PS : yes you will 100% get killed without vanish . its why premeditation is gonna be so nice xD rogues really do live for that CD in pvp.

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What ? It never provided immunity,it allways was like u can get unstealthed instantly Vanila>tbc>Wotlk.
Only thing that was inconsistent its vanish-stun/hoj/blind, sometimes u get cc’d after vanish,sometimes cc miss with vanish fail, or u vanish successfull +cc miss.
U need to time ur vanishes properly, or they broke.

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Using rupture Vs warriors ? Are you joking? Have you seen the damage of rupture even with decent gear and 3/3 sersted blades a 5 point rupture is going to tick every 2 seconds for like 70 damage. Rupture doesn’t scale well in sod and everyone has decent health pools. You would Literally need to kite a warrior for like 20seconds to kill them with rogue bleeds lol. Literally the only ability worth using for rogue in PvP is mutilate and stuns.

The best way for playing rogue I’ve found in PvP is blasting mutilate 3x in a row and praying they all crit.

The best opponents I’ve found to fight is mage and rogues. Everything else feels like a hard counter. Priest of all types. Shamans druids warriors. Paladins hunters. Every one of these classes literally global you lol. And it’s not like I’ve not gone PvP geared I’m running about with 3k hp unbuffed in STV and you still make little to jo difference lol

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unrelated to stealth and my skills might be certainly improved, this is how my pvp looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prYgZo2saMg

Take into account, that while other classes are pretty simple to pick up, rogues need extensive experience, skills to item swap, use consumables, time energy ticks for stunlock, and be able to find a good/bad fight… THAT IS NOT WHAT SoD IS ABOUT for that reason there is classic and retail!

Even a grumpy middle-aged man like me should be able to enjoy class like others can other classes. After all SoD should be fun new way of playing wow.

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Vanish also can be resistet.