RP: Storytelling Medium or Social Platform?

[Candor-argent-dawn]

RP: Storytelling Medium or Social Platform?

It is often said that characters make up the core of any story. But what is the significance of a character in online roleplay? In my experience, creating and exploring interesting characters and stories has often appeared not to be the point of roleplay in World of Warcraft. In this post, I will share my experiences and thoughts as to why this may be the case.

Upon joining a guild, a player character very rarely receives a proper story introduction. New characters often appear in the middle of a story and for no apparent reason, introducing themselves through brief interactions lacking dramatic tension, after which they decide to tag along with the group. The character enters the story almost in the same manner as the player joins the guild. This sort of lacklustre character introduction would be considered poor writing in any other storytelling medium.

Contrary to the tabletop role-playing experience in which a character backstory is often created through collaboration between the player and the DM and is incorporated into the plot, the player is typically expected to inject their character’s backstory and motives into the story without assistance from the DM. This may result in forced backstory exposition on the part of the player without much payoff, or a near complete lack of backstory exploration, as it simply never becomes relevant; characters can spend months in each other’s company without getting to know one another on any meaningful level. The roleplayer, whose character most likely lacks any direct connection with the plot, struggles to develop their character as the story progresses, and any development that does occur seems plastered onto the story in response to events that have little to do with the character.

In part, this apparent lack of player character relevance can be explained by the fact that in World of Warcraft, players come and go, and so too do their characters, often without explanation. A story which heavily focuses on its characters would effectively be maimed were it to suddenly lose one of them without explanation. On the other hand, a story which is not centred on its characters renders them replaceable. The challenges of a character-focused story can be overcome with a little care and effort, however, which is why I do not find this explanation satisfactory.

Ultimately, I believe roleplay in World of Warcraft is largely about living out personal fantasies in a social environment. It is not so much about creating flawed, interesting characters and seeing them develop, nor about collaboratively telling great stories, as it is pretending to be someone special, powerful and beautiful whilst spending time with friends online. The story does not matter so long as we can display the uniqueness, special powers and attractiveness of our virtual selves in the company of others.

In this view, role-playing in World of Warcraft (and by extension the Argent Archives with its emphasis on aesthetics and character art) has more in common with social media than literature; it is a platform on which we project idealised versions of ourselves that we would like others to see.

I am certain there must be examples of great character-focused storytelling on this server, but I have not seen much of it in recent years and have stopped role-playing altogether as a result. I am interested to hear what your experience has been.

[Wraithwood-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Upon joining a guild, a player character very rarely receives a proper story introduction. New characters often appear in the middle of a story and for no apparent reason, introducing themselves through brief interactions lacking dramatic tension, after which they decide to tag along with the group. The character enters the story almost in the same manner as the player joins the guild. This sort of lacklustre character introduction would be considered poor writing in any other storytelling medium.

I cannot say that it is rare, but I can say that this is not the case in many guilds I have been. There are guilds that massively recruit, and this is often the case, among many other things you mention in latter parts of your post, such as there not really being a ‘solid core’ of characters, where a revolving door of characters enter and leave without much a worry.

@Candor-argent-dawn

In this view, role-playing in World of Warcraft (and by extension the Argent Archives with its emphasis on aesthetics and character art) has more in common with social media than literature; it is a platform on which we project idealised versions of ourselves that we would like others to see.

With this, I disagree. Argent Archives has a great deal of people who, sure, express themselves through graphic design, art, and many other things; but this is not new to TTRPGs, which you mention to have a preference towards, both online and in real life. Argent Archives has no emphasis for art. As a matter of fact, the showcase for art is only one amongst many displays of recent content made by roleplayers in Argent Archives, and has no like/dislike system that would really give any more attention that simply posting one’s art in a public or private Discord group would.

Furthermore, it is not a ‘version of ourselves’ that ‘we would like others to see’. It is a roleplaying website where people write things for others to see, because it is literature related to roleplay characters, for a community of roleplayers. Would roleplaying through any online medium at all, with strangers whom you did not previously know in real life, be designated as social media through this very same point of view, that you are putting out content for an ‘idealised version of yourself’ that you ‘would like others to see’?

And, I would like to emphasize, that roleplay characters are not idealized versions of oneself, they are characters, not a Freudian (cursed be his name) reflection of the superego. People write roleplay characters not as a means to parasocially interact with one another, or at least, most of the times they don’t; but because these stories would be interesting to write to them.

That aside, roleplay is social by nature. It’s simply how it is. Ask any IRL TTRPG table how much money they’ve spent in snacks or dinners they’ve munched on while rolling dice and watch them blush and sweat. It involves multiple roleplayers, and these multiple writers will make connections, roleplay together, and write together, and perhaps, as I have said, even invest enough in their characters to draw them, or have them drawn, and display it to other roleplayers because they are enthusiastic about these characters, rather than an utilitarian tool to draw people in.

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In conclusion, I do agree that some guilds should reconsider their recruitment mechanisms, and, in general, behave as if they really are the organization that they claim to be in-universe - this much is true; but in my own experience, it is not as widespread as you might believe. In turn, I disagree with the notion that a social aspect and a connection to art and aesthetics in roleplay is this strange, never-seen-before-in-a-TTRPG collection of Freudian slippery slopes to portray idealised versions of the self, and that showing interest and enthusiasm in these characters is merely a vehicle to feed one’s ego through a caricature of themselves. People roleplay and engage in these aspects related to roleplay, because it’s fun.

[Hateforged-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Ultimately, I believe roleplay in World of Warcraft is largely about living out personal fantasies in a social environment. It is not so much about creating flawed, interesting characters and seeing them develop, nor about collaboratively telling great stories, as it is pretending to be someone special, powerful and beautiful whilst spending time with friends online. The story does not matter so long as we can display the uniqueness, special powers and attractiveness of our virtual selves in the company of others.

I believe this mostly boils down to what crowd you decide to mingle with, both in terms of guilds and RP hubs. What you described regarding RP guilds happens quite often, particularly ones that recruit every guildless character they stumble upon, but I’ve been in guilds that make an effort doing exactly what you find lacking, with introductions, thematic trainee inductions (let that be military or religion-focused like in Cult guilds) and then events based around the members rather than some generic storyline that has nothing to do with the roster.

I’ve also been in guilds that almost exclusively do said events and eschew the random social roleplay aspect completely, with members only logging for these events as if they were tabletop sessions. I won’t vilify or support this as it can be absolutely due to RL circumstances (people having families and jobs, thus don’t have the time to loiter after or before events), but it does happen.

Same way the opposite of this is present in the community and what your complaint is about, where generic guilds are formed to then strictly be about a collection of Second Life enthusiasts. Current day Stormwind is a perfect sample of that where every ridiculous concept under the sun gets support or validation for the sake of positivity, while even a hint of conflict, regardless of how justified it is, gets mobbed by the Growh Pot-addicted horde of Man’ari Eredar, San’layn socialites, Half-Elves, Dracthyr Kaijus and other silly characters in a 5 mile radius. These are not characters made with any actual flaws or interesting quirks, but rather attempts at normalizizing them to

@Candor-argent-dawn

be someone special, powerful and beautiful whilst spending time with friends online.

That said I solely raise this example as what your archetype of Second Life enthusiasts create and not because any large hub would be better off if it focused on storytelling. That doesn’t really mesh with peoples’ expectations for random role-play.

@Candor-argent-dawn

I am certain there must be examples of great character-focused storytelling on this server, but I have not seen much of it in recent years and have stopped role-playing altogether as a result. I am interested to hear what your experience has been.

There absolutely are and there’s guilds that strike a balance between treating themselves as a social platform as well as a storytelling medium. Some of these guilds have been around for years and realistically I don’t think they would have lasted this long if they didn’t find that balance.

[Yorah-argent-dawn]

I think this post is made with a Alliance bias, which is understandable its where most people experience their RP. But i can assure you, no Forsaken RPer is playing the Idealised Version of themselves.

You described 2 versions of RP. the Walk up Social RP, which yes is close to Role play chatrooms in Social media. But people still play a character.
and Guild rp. Which is Dmed narrative RP. And With Dmed Narrative RP you cannot focus to much on the New Gnome who came into the guild. you focus on the narrative you have written for your current members.

However, Dms can find ways for a new character to be introduced more organically into their story. but this depends on the people in question.

This reads as if you seem to have the wrong expectations to Role Play in World of Warcraft. Its not Table top. and it is also not Second life. Its a weird amalgamation. I often compare it to LARPing online.

most people who roleplay in WoW are not there to write deep narratives and develop their characters across many months of intricate story telling.

Most people who roleplay in WoW want to pretend to be an Orc who fights monsters, or a Rogue who is eves dropping on peoples conversations in the Tavern.

Its a Casual thing people do for fun. and everyone’s fun is different.

[Felentrick-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Upon joining a guild, a player character very rarely receives a proper story introduction. New characters often appear in the middle of a story and for no apparent reason, introducing themselves through brief interactions lacking dramatic tension, after which they decide to tag along with the group. The character enters the story almost in the same manner as the player joins the guild. This sort of lacklustre character introduction would be considered poor writing in any other storytelling medium.

Kinda depends on the guild you’re joining really in my opinion.

Some guilds can and will do better to incorporate your character as much as they can but the fact is this is a Random online space for RP. People can just stumble upon you and you get brought into the fold along that journey or maybe they just sign you up with a pat on the back. I’m guilty of both and could be something I could reflect and to which I’d ask;

What would you expect a GM or recruiting officer to do to involve your char?

@Candor-argent-dawn

Contrary to the tabletop role-playing experience in which a character backstory is often created through collaboration between the player and the DM and is incorporated into the plot, the player is typically expected to inject their character’s backstory and motives into the story without assistance from the DM. This may result in forced backstory exposition on the part of the player without much payoff, or a near complete lack of backstory exploration, as it simply never becomes relevant; characters can spend months in each other’s company without getting to know one another on any meaningful level. The roleplayer, whose character most likely lacks any direct connection with the plot, struggles to develop their character as the story progresses, and any development that does occur seems plastered onto the story in response to events that have little to do with the character.

With character backstories a lot of people have very elaborative backstories from the years they’ve been around on AD and in RP itself playing that character.

Injecting that into a guild can be quite a struggle to bring it some relevance and it also wholly depends on the guild you’re joining and what the guild’s focus in.

It is up to you the player to potentially bring that up to your DM, GM or Officer and ask if there can be a narrative focus.

RP is what you make of it.

If you make a character and craft it specifically for that guild you’re going to have a hard time actually interacting with others and whilst yes, some guilds people have these detailed backgrounds and it’s never touched upon or shed a light upon. That’s because the player hasn’t explored that with his fellow guild members not the guild leader themself.

@Candor-argent-dawn

In part, this apparent lack of player character relevance can be explained by the fact that in World of Warcraft, players come and go, and so too do their characters, often without explanation. A story which heavily focuses on its characters would effectively be maimed were it to suddenly lose one of them without explanation. On the other hand, a story which is not centred on its characters renders them replaceable. The challenges of a character-focused story can be overcome with a little care and effort, however, which is why I do not find this explanation satisfactory.

I agree a lot with this purely out of sense that people do come and go and from a GM perspective it can be hard to work a lot through their personal stories with the uncertainty if they’re coming or going.

I will say that I do my best to focus a lot on the character’s stories within the guild and that whilst some guilds may be a relative one man band where the Leader can or is the focus many of the guilds are far different from that.

A lot of this comes down to not the guild but infact the members and what they want from their RP.

@Candor-argent-dawn

In this view, role-playing in World of Warcraft (and by extension the Argent Archives with its emphasis on aesthetics and character art) has more in common with social media than literature; it is a platform on which we project idealised versions of ourselves that we would like others to see.

I largely disagree with this, because people spend money on their characters and are invested in them doesn’t mean everyone is projecting who they want to be IRL.

I don’t exactly see the connotation of wanting to project myself as a flesh-eating monster who has been outcast by everything he once loved.

Though it’s also important to note that RP has and always will be a form of escapism for players. People do have a lot going on in their real lives, look at the legend of Ibelin and how he wanted to project himself into WoW because he couldn’t live his life properly RL because of his many challenges.

I can see how it can be a double-edged sword for some but for many I really don’t see it that deeply.

You’ll always get people who get overly invested in their characters and you’ll also have people who are just wanting to muck about and play a character with comic relief added to it and lastly, you may get someone who’s really serious about story-writing and scripting. RP is a place for everyone afterall.

Argent Archives; I think has been a major blessing to the Server and there’s nothing quite like it elsewhere it’s a good social network as you mention to learn about what’s going on in game, who’s about, who’s doing what and for people to just write out a story or two for their character’s profile.

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These are my points as a GM and what I think of atleast in my mind and from a Horde perspective as well.

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Contrary to the tabletop role-playing experience in which a character backstory is often created through collaboration between the player and the DM and is incorporated into the plot, the player is typically expected to inject their character’s backstory and motives into the story without assistance from the DM. This may result in forced backstory exposition on the part of the player without much payoff, or a near complete lack of backstory exploration, as it simply never becomes relevant; characters can spend months in each other’s company without getting to know one another on any meaningful level. The roleplayer, whose character most likely lacks any direct connection with the plot, struggles to develop their character as the story progresses, and any development that does occur seems plastered onto the story in response to events that have little to do with the character.

I´m going to take a guess and say that this statement comes from your experience with RP guilds that operate in essence the same way DnD groups do, that being random people who go on adventures together without any organized theme rooted in universe of Warcraft. In which case, I can see how you take issue with how they operate, because there isn´t the level of organization and storytelling that exists within DnD groups that allows for creation of stories where each individual character has good personal reason to be part of the group.

The problem is that you´re applying this logic to WoW RP guilds in general even though many RP guilds do not operate in the same way as DnD groups IC. Yes, a John Adventurer needs a good personal reason for joining Random Adventuring Group, but John Soldier that just left his basic training in Stormwind Army really doesn´t need any other reason for being assigned to Unit 420 than orders from random officer NPC.

The ability of guilds in WoW RP to represent larger organizations, be it canon ones or stuff such as noble retinue or made up orcish clan is what allows for characters to join without having some deep reason intertwined with guild´s storyline, and for characters to take part in that storyline without instantly getting some deep connection to it.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Ultimately, I believe roleplay in World of Warcraft is largely about living out personal fantasies in a social environment. It is not so much about creating flawed, interesting characters and seeing them develop, nor about collaboratively telling great stories, as it is pretending to be someone special, powerful and beautiful whilst spending time with friends online. The story does not matter so long as we can display the uniqueness, special powers and attractiveness of our virtual selves in the company of others.

While this is definitely true for some players (and I´m going to take a leap here and suggest that in guild setting, in groups that are just “random adventurers with zero limitations on race/class” these players represent larger percentage than in guilds that tie themselves to specific in-universe theme that limits who can be part of them), it feels like you´re taking a massive leap from “the DMed guild story isn´t centered around player characters” to “therefore people don´t RP in WoW to create interesting stories but instead want a power fantasy”. Especially given that your source for this is presence of art on Argent Archives, even though this website isn´t used by everyone on the server and even among those who use it, those with tons of art are likely a minority.

[Avantheria-argent-dawn]

@Yorah-argent-dawn

no Forsaken RPer is playing the Idealised Version of themselves.

This is wrong, I constantly wish I was dead

[Candor-argent-dawn]

I am glad to hear that many of you have had more positive experiences than I have on Argent Dawn. Some of you do seem to acknowledge, however, that there is a strong social element (“Second Life”) and a desire to live out personal fantasies (“escapism”) in roleplay in this game that makes it different from other media, and which in some cases waters down the storytelling.

The reason I brought up the Argent Archives was not to criticise the website itself. However, I think that a lot of the character art, aesthetic profiles, and even some of the written adventures, are evidence not of a deep investment in a character’s story, but of a sort of social media vanity. Many, perhaps most, of the art pieces that are posted show beautiful, sexy or EPIC-looking characters, without any significance to the story. These are RP equivalents of photoshopped selfies using filters. What purpose can these serve besides flaunting the grandeur of one’s virtual self, especially when one has paid hundreds for such artwork? The characters portrayed also reveal a clear preference within the community not for simple, flawed, interesting characters, but for idealised ones, which suggests to me that role-playing in WoW really is more about living out fantasies than it is exploring characters through storytelling.

The problem is not that role-playing is a social activity or that people enjoy it because of that. The problem, in my opinion, arises when social interaction through glamorised alter egos becomes the point of the activity, at the cost of storytelling.

@Yorah-argent-dawn

But i can assure you, no Forsaken RPer is playing the Idealised Version of themselves.

Good point! Edit: On second thought, I disagree. Forsaken characters can be idealised in ways other than beauty and virtue. What of the extremely powerful, cool-looking, epic Forsaken who can get away with anything? I am sure they exist.

@Felentrick-argent-dawn

What would you expect a GM or recruiting officer to do to involve your char?

A conversation out of character in which the GM and player find a good moment in the current story to introduce the character to the rest of the group. Perhaps the character is encountered at the next event location and holds a valueable piece of information, which they will provide in exchange for help with something. Or perhaps they are also in pursuit of the antagonist due to reasons of their own. Perhaps they are on the side of the antagonist initially, but end up switching sides and joining the group to defeat their common foe.

@Felentrick-argent-dawn

I don’t exactly see the connotation of wanting to project myself as a flesh-eating monster who has been outcast by everything he once loved.

A power fantasy, perhaps? Although I do not take issue with that concept. The complaints I put forward above of course do not apply to every character and every guild.

@Syelia-argent-dawn

I´m going to take a guess and say that this statement comes from your experience with RP guilds that operate in essence the same way DnD groups do, that being random people who go on adventures together without any organized theme rooted in universe of Warcraft.

Yes, you are right. I have less experience with guilds representing organisations, and you may be right that there is less of a need to explain why a particular character is part of the story in that case. Although I feel that even “John Soldier” should have a reason to be there that is confirmed and touched on by his officer or commander. It might even come up through the plot. If the character in question was forced to join the military and leave his family behind, coming across a family of NPCs who have suffered a similar fate might create an interesting role-playing moment, as he is forced to confront how his own family must have been affected by his departure.

[Felentrick-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Many, perhaps most, of the art pieces that are posted show beautiful, sexy or EPIC-looking characters, without any significance to the story. These are RP equivalents of photoshopped selfies using filters. What purpose can these serve besides flaunting the grandeur of one’s virtual self, especially when one has paid hundreds for such artwork? The characters portrayed also reveal a clear preference within the community not for simple, flawed, interesting characters, but for idealised ones, which suggests to me that role-playing in WoW really is more about living out fantasies than it is exploring characters through storytelling.

Unfortunately you see the same thing everywhere and in every kind of RP. You see people getting their Tieflings drew for the 5000th time in a sexy or NSFW pose. Some people are going to be like that.

I have a couple of glamour and visual ques / reference art pieces that I have commissioned for my Belf and the stages throughout his life but that has accumulated over the years.

@Candor-argent-dawn

A conversation out of character in which the GM and player find a good moment in the current story to introduce the character to the rest of the group. Perhaps the character is encountered at the next event location and holds a valueable piece of information, which they will provide in exchange for help with something. Or perhaps they are also in pursuit of the antagonist due to reasons of their own. Perhaps they are on the side of the antagonist initially, but end up switching sides and joining the group to defeat their common foe.

I think with this point although you raise it fairly, it is simply that of D&D-esque and not really the kind of Roleplay you will see most of the time in WoW or any MMO that I’ve done RP in atleast to this day.

Though all guilds are different and chances are there is that one guild that does it.

The thing with RP in D&D is that it is vastly different to RP in WoW. People can try to bring D&D into WoW in a sense of it fitting the universe but it never really works out that way. It’s just a matter of designs.

The enemy becoming the ally can work if the guild is willing to though as I said it’s guild-dependant mostly. Though most guilds I know of haven’t done it in this kind of format.

Though as you say mostly your experiences come from these more D&D focused guilds that do pop up and show up so I can understand your meaning behind it.

@Candor-argent-dawn

@Felentrick-argent-dawn

I don’t exactly see the connotation of wanting to project myself as a flesh-eating monster who has been outcast by everything he once loved.

A power fantasy, perhaps? Although I do not take issue with that concept. The complaints I put forward above of course do not apply to every character and every guild.

I mean maybe? I don’t know I don’t see a lot of that but again, different factions as well.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Yes, you are right. I have less experience with guilds representing organisations, and you may be right that there is less of a need to explain why a particular character is part of the story in that case

Yeah pretty much this.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Although I feel that even “John Soldier” should have a reason to be there that is confirmed and touched on by his officer or commander. It might even come up through the plot. If the character in question was forced to join the military and leave his family behind, coming across a family of NPCs who have suffered a similar fate might create an interesting role-playing moment, as he is forced to confront how his own family must have been affected by his departure.

Don’t really agree with this.

John Soldier is pointed to a unit, he joins the unit there’s not really a story for that.

But as you mention perhaps something happened that laments his past / history with the poor family you come across and he resonates with that. Well then that player has to bring that initiative forward that is more on you as a player rather than the guild overall type of thing.

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Some of you do seem to acknowledge, however, that there is a strong social element (“Second Life”) and a desire to live out personal fantasies (“escapism”) in roleplay in this game that makes it different from other media, and which in some cases waters down the storytelling.

“Second Life” in this sense talks about specific type of RP that you see happen often in Stormwind and some market events that acts as what you describe in it being about living an idealized life. This however is something criticized by many RPers, so by nature it´s not something that´s a feature of RP on AD, especially in guild settings.

In terms of escapism, it´s not as much about living out personal fantasies, but rather to literally escape the real world and immerse oneself in a story. Reading a book can be escapism too, after all.

@Candor-argent-dawn

What purpose can these serve besides flaunting the grandeur of one’s virtual self, especially when one has paid hundreds for such artwork? The characters portrayed also reveal a clear preference within the community not for simple, flawed, interesting characters, but for idealised ones, which suggests to me that role-playing in WoW really is more about living out fantasies than it is exploring characters through storytelling.

As I said, you´re effectively looking at a minority, and in this context are being influenced by selection bias.
RPers that want to focus on a story first and to develop characters are unlikely to buy 20 artpieces of the same character. In fact, many of them may not have a single piece of art of their character, or few at most.
Who will buy 20 pieces of their character looking hot and like a post on Facebook are people that you´re describing.

But, here´s where the math comes in. Let´s say we have 100 people who RP for the story. On average, these people will have 2 pieces of art (some will have more, some less). Some may not even be on AA. But then you have 20 people, with 20 pieces each, portraying their character in the way you described.
1002=200
2020=400
Those 100 people just got overshadowed by 20 on AA.
Judging state of AD based on art category on AA just doesn´t work.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Yes, you are right. I have less experience with guilds representing organisations, and you may be right that there is less of a need to explain why a particular character is part of the story in that case. Although I feel that even “John Soldier” should have a reason to be there that is confirmed and touched on by his officer or commander. It might even come up through the plot. If the character in question was forced to join the military and leave his family behind, coming across a family of NPCs who have suffered a similar fate might create an interesting role-playing moment, as he is forced to confront how his own family must have been affected by his departure.

Two issues here:

1. John Soldier can simply be a bright-eyed would-be hero who wants to serve his country. His reason for joining the unit can literally just be “I was assigned here after training”, because that´s how it works in RL armies too.
2. The character backstory and development can still happen and is happening. People in guilds often make events about their characters, develop them and come in with backstories. That doesn´t mean this backstory has to be discussed extensively with GM beforehand or to become crucial cornerstone of guild´s storytelling.

Overall, the issue I see with your approach is that you are trying to apply the ideals of one medium of RP to another, without realizing that their strengths lie elsewhere and that they have very different standards.

In TTRPGs, the entire world consists of the DM and the player group. As such, the player group acts as small writing group that can shape the world in whatever way they want. A character can be a brilliant inventor that is years ahead of anyone else in the world, while also being the last member of noble house that was destroyed by dark forces that took over their town, while also being possessed by a demon, and this character will be absolutely awesome. The story focusing on all these aspects of won´t be intruding on others because it´s all a small group and the medium´s focus is fully on them.

But WoW RP´s strengths lie elsewhere. The large amount of players, with even mid-tier guild dwarfing most DnD parties, allows for stories about more ordinary people. A human farmer that decided to join the army, seeing the wide world for the first time. A magic apprentice coming to study with other wizards, exploring the depths of magic. An old orc trying to carve out the place in the world for his family before he dies. We can go even higher, ending up with lesser nobles, one of many Archmages, or commanders of army units, but at the end of the day, being just one of the many instead of THE guy is what AD is best suited for.

But, here we come to a problem, because there are people out there on this server who RP THE guy. And, frankly, more power to them as long as they aren´t intruding on others, but here´s the thing: In a setting where extraordinary isn´t common, and in fact may even be frowned upon by parts of the community, the people who RP being extraordinary have higher chance of doing it to feel extraordinary. As such, you are far more likely to run into people who will purchase 20 pieces of art of their character and will RP out epic stuff about their epic warrior epically fighting epic monsters in epic ways.

Like it or not, if you want to increase your chances of encountering a guild/group that does it for the story and has characters who aren´t some idealized version of themselves or cool people doing cool things, you have to seek out people that RP more ordinary folk.

[Candor-argent-dawn]

@Felentrick-argent-dawn

John Soldier is pointed to a unit, he joins the unit there’s not really a story for that.

What is the point if there is no story? Certainly not storytelling.

@Felentrick-argent-dawn

But as you mention perhaps something happened that laments his past / history with the poor family you come across and he resonates with that. Well then that player has to bring that initiative forward that is more on you as a player rather than the guild overall type of thing.

As I described in my first post:

@Candor-argent-dawn

This may result in forced backstory exposition on the part of the player without much payoff, or a near complete lack of backstory exploration, as it simply never becomes relevant; characters can spend months in each other’s company without getting to know one another on any meaningful level. The roleplayer, whose character most likely lacks any direct connection with the plot, struggles to develop their character as the story progresses, and any development that does occur seems plastered onto the story in response to events that have little to do with the character.

@Syelia-argent-dawn

As I said, you´re effectively looking at a minority, and in this context are being influenced by selection bias.

Far from being symtoms of a small minority that is rarely encountered, what I see reflected on Argent Archives is something I have often come across in perfectly ordinary role-playing guilds on the server.

@Syelia-argent-dawn

John Soldier can simply be a bright-eyed would-be hero who wants to serve his country. His reason for joining the unit can literally just be “I was assigned here after training”, because that´s how it works in RL armies too.

There does not have to be a particularly interesting reason behind John’s inclusion in the story in this instance, you’re right, but that does not mean that he should not have a backstory that will come up and be relevant at some point in the plot through collaboration between the player and the DM.

Regarding your later points: Although the ability to change the world is beneficial for storytelling, it is not essential. One can still have a character-focused story without it. A character-focused story also does not have to intrude on the roleplay of others. And one certainly does not have to play an extraordinary character to take part in a story which is centred on its characters — I fail to see the connection. One can play “ordinary folk” even in such a story. Frodo Baggins is quite an ordinary Hobbit, for example: he is not strong or powerful, beautiful, nor particularly wise. Yet his role in The Lord of the Rings is not to prop up a plot that has nothing to do with him. His identity as a Hobbit and a Baggins, as well as the adventures of his cousin Bilbo often come up in the plot. His personal goal aligns with the plot: destroying the One Ring.

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

What is the point if there is no story? Certainly not storytelling.

To develop the story based on the experiences in the RP. Some of the best character development I´ve got for my characters was purely based on stuff that happened in RP to characters that were, for the large part, blank canvases.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Far from being symtoms of a small minority that is rarely encountered, what I see reflected on Argent Archives is something I have often come across in perfectly ordinary role-playing guilds on the server.

Which however ties to what I wrote next, that the guilds you´ve been seeking out also happen to be the guilds which share the mindset of people you have issue with that are on AA.

@Candor-argent-dawn

There does not have to be a particularly interesting reason behind John’s inclusion in the story in this instance, you’re right, but that does not mean that he should not have a backstory that will come up and be relevant at some point in the plot through collaboration between the player and the DM.

You´re still looking at WoW RP through the lenses of DnD RP, with one DM that develops the story for other players rather than collaborative storytelling where multiple people take on the roles of a DM.
It shouldn´t really be the GM´s obligation to incorporate everyone´s character into the story they´re crafting and tying them to it. If you want to explore the story of your character, arrange for hosting events yourself. Many guild officers are very happy to oblige the players because it means they will be able to enjoy the RP without having responsibility over it for once.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Regarding your later points: Although the ability to change the world is beneficial for storytelling, it is not essential. One can still have a character-focused story without it.

I wasn´t talking about changing the world, but rather about characters that are special and powerful, and how people who RP them on WoW (where such isn´t the norm or even accepted among some) can have very different mindset than people RPing the same characters in DnD (where there is no social stigma against that).

@Candor-argent-dawn

And one certainly does not have to play an extraordinary character to take part in a story which is centred on its characters — I fail to see the connection.

Because there isn´t any and it´s not what I´ve said. If anything, it´s the opposite: If you want to find people who want to focus on the story and character development, you´re IMO far more likely to find them among guilds that RP more ordinary people and those that take the inspiration for their guilds from the setting rather than being just another adventuring group.

[Gayagenda-argent-dawn]

It seems you’ve had some poor experiences with the guilds you’ve been in, and that sucks. Personally, I’ve been much luckier, although I’ve seen a lot of what you’re talking about. There’s a lot to be talked about there, but I’m short on time, so I just wanted to look at one thing you said.

@Candor-argent-dawn

In this view, role-playing in World of Warcraft (and by extension the Argent Archives with its emphasis on aesthetics and character art) has more in common with social media than literature

Do you think Roleplaying is literature? It’s not. Not in any sense. If anything, it’s theater, and even that requires a broad understanding of the word. If you approach roleplaying through the lens of literature, it will always fail, because that’s just not what it is.

[Candor-argent-dawn]

@Gayagenda-argent-dawn

Do you think Roleplaying is literature? It’s not. Not in any sense. If anything, it’s theater, and even that requires a broad understanding of the word. If you approach roleplaying through the lens of literature, it will always fail, because that’s just not what it is.

Is theatre not based on written plays, i.e. literature? Role-playing is partly collaborative literature (roleplayers write stories and status updates, storylines are planned out and scripted in advance) and partly improvisational theatre. I used literature more as an example of storytelling — theatre or television shows are other examples.

[Speedwagone-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Is theatre not based on written plays, i.e. literature

At this point you’re just being pedantic for the sake of arguing.

You went to the area with the least focus on literary story-telling and the most focus on social experience, and then got surprised that the story-telling was sub-par?

It’s like going to McDonald’s and being upset that they’re not serving gourmet.

I don’t think it’s valid to think of RP as either literature, theatre, or social experience, because ultimately, it’s all three. It’s a collaborative writing hobby that people undertake to meet people and to share ideas and creativity.

[Gayagenda-argent-dawn]

@Candor-argent-dawn

Is theatre not based on written plays, i.e. literature?

Not quite. Plays are often remembered as written texts, because that’s how they are preserved, but they are meant to be played. To take Shakespeare as an example, his plays were never meant to be read. But, his fellow actors (who had memorised the plays) decided to write them down and sell them, to make a quick buck.

The general rule of thumb is that if it’s meant to be read, it’s literature, and if it’s meant to be played, it’s theater.

Either way the point is moot, because Roleplaying does not involve a script. If it did, it would just be acting. It’s no more literature than your local impov troupe, although roleplayers might do a bit more prep. The previous comparison to LARP is a good one (although nerds like me will argue that LARP is also just another form of theater.)

[Candor-argent-dawn]

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

At this point you’re just being pedantic for the sake of arguing.

The argument directed at my post focused on the use of the word literature, but that was not the point. The point is not that RP is or should be literature, but that certain social aspects of RP in WoW come at the cost of compelling storytelling.

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

You went to the area with the least focus on literary story-telling and the most focus on social experience, and then got surprised that the story-telling was sub-par?

Which area is that? RP in WoW? It is not so much surprise as a slow, painful realisation. All my experiences on Argent Dawn have not been awful, but I can only really think of one or two guilds that I thoroughly enjoyed and in which I felt that the focus really was on storytelling, where my character felt like a meaningful part of the group.

@Gayagenda-argent-dawn

Not quite. Plays are often remembered as written texts, because that’s how they are preserved, but they are meant to be played.

Point taken.

[Shogganosh-argent-dawn]

It’s both. Roleplaying is a social platform for people who want to tell stories together. It’s text-based improvised theatre.

@Candor-argent-dawn

Upon joining a guild, a player character very rarely receives a proper story introduction. New characters often appear in the middle of a story and for no apparent reason, introducing themselves through brief interactions lacking dramatic tension, after which they decide to tag along with the group. The character enters the story almost in the same manner as the player joins the guild. This sort of lacklustre character introduction would be considered poor writing in any other storytelling medium.

Most stories aren’t collectively written by a community of contributors, whose contributions to the story vary significantly.

Most guilds have a narrative that is directed by the guild master, officers or some other sort of game master who manages events and writes the outline of the guild’s story. The other members play the central cast of the story and serve as the pilots and passengers of the vehicle that the GM has written for them, who get to steer the direction of it and experience the journey.

The people who stay in these guilds are the people who enjoy the narrative that is being provided and enjoy exploring it with the other people who remain with them. These people serve as the core of the guild, who are collectively writing a story that they enjoy for themselves.

Breaking this core narrative for this core audience, in order to introduce and cater to every new member, may dissatisfy these long-term members of the community. The story that they are enjoying may be altered in a way that they are not interested in, in order to include someone new.

While all guilds should strive to be inclusive and ideally these core members should be welcoming and appreciative of newbies, it’s not healthy for a guild or the narrative of that guild to pivot whenever someone new joins the guild, often at inopportune moments.

So I cannot blame guilds for putting their long-term narratives and long-term members before new members, especially when it is not known how much they will contribute to the guild or how long they will be in the guild.

The way around this is for people to start with characters that less detailed, less powerful, less special and less beautiful, who represent a baseline that is able to fit into an appropriate guild without any significant narrative being necessary at all.

A soldier wants to serve their country, so they join an appropriate military guild.
An engineer wants to get paid for their craft, so they join an artisanal/market/engineering guild.
A dwarf wants to do dwarf things, so they join a exclusively dwarvish guild.

The more special, beautiful, exceptional characters actually have a harder time with this and are only found in guilds where they have been long-term members and have become exceptional through a long-term narrative. Otherwise, they’re found in popular hubs, public campaigns and gatherings and other readily available sources of RP where they don’t have to try and slot into a pre-existing narrative.

The point that I’m making is that the phenomenon of lacklustre introductions for new members and focus on long-term members can serve as a defensive mechanism against the “social platforming” or “Second Life RP” that you are not fond of.
By focusing on the story that it has always been telling, rather than bending to pander to everyone who joins the guild, these guilds are able to preserve their narratives and encourage new members to conform to the spirit of the guild, rather than highlight and advertise their exceptionality.

[Gayagenda-argent-dawn]

With that said, I think it’s mainly a matter of expectation and curation.

To cover curation, basically, you curate your own RP experience. If you play with roleplayers who view RP as a way of escapism, a sort of ‘second life’ RP, that’s kinda on you. This server has every kind of RP; you just gotta find the one that fits you. And adjust your expectations to fit the medium.

We all love compelling storytelling. But, roleplaying is not the ultimate medium for that. The best storytelling you’ll find is by an writer. They are a dictator, who can spend weeks on a single interaction, and revise and redraft it as much as they want before you read it. In roleplaying, it’s collaborative, and the collaborators have minutes to make the scene, with no revisions. The quality will be accordingly affected, but that is the price for having it be as interactive as it is.

There is the organisational matter too, to think of. A GM is a volunteer; so are the officers, and the rest of the event organisers. They do it out of the kindness of their heart, and are (in my experience) very acommodating. Still, you can’t expect them to move heaven and earth for a new member. It feels very bad if they go out of their way to introduce every new member, if that member then leaves one week later. That’ll divert the story and, again, hurt the compelling narrative.

As for the compelling narrative, everyone has a different view of what makes a narrative compelling. There’s not much more to say about that, it’s just something to keep in mind.

Tl;dr. This is a collaborative, voluntary effort. The story you make won’t be as good as a book, or a TV show, or whatever, but you and your friends get to be a part of it.

[Astraania-argent-dawn]

Can RP not be both at once? It’s got the potential for both, and is often both at once. I’ve said in various circles that RP in MMOs are my social life, and i stand by that, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a storytelling medium.

Regardless of the type of RP you prefer, it’s always going to retain that social aspect, even hardcore RP is inherently social, simply by the fact that it requires other players. RPing alone is just writing a novel after all.

To say RP is either/or in this scenario is extremely reductive as its nowhere near as black and white as you suggest.

Tell your grand stories, use WoW as your narrative engine, but if you try to remove the social aspect entirely, you’re not playing an MMORPG.