Ok, so Blizzard has a dumpster fire on their hands. Let’s not go into that, but it might well have some influence on the themes they will choose for future stories. I expect they will put mure scrutiny on avoiding anything that could be interpreted as sexist, racist, or some other bad ism or phobia. And since it is really hard to do a story that doesn’t involve anything potentially touching on those bad things, the obvious way to go for the prudent company is to make stories that are explicitly anti-“bad isms”. That’s the premise I’m assuming for this thread.
Now, no matter what your politics are, this isn’t necessarily good or bad. Themes can be implemented in many different ways, they can be intervowen more subtly or more overtly, they can be used to demonize doubters or they can be used to facilitate greater understanding, and they can be made to fit the story’s setting… or not. But this is Blizzard we are talking about, and since I’m not exactly impressed by the writing capabilities they have shown in the last decade, there is a good chance they might muck this up. And that woldn’t be anjoyable for anyone.
So anyone have some ideas for inclusive, “woke”, stories in WoW that are actually good, fit the existing canon and don’t antagonize all people that aren’t already 100% on board with that? Bonus points if you can also make it good for non-western markets.
Maybe something about Night Elven gender roles? Race ellegories starring dragon swarms? Sex-changing new alien races? The themes usually don’t speak to me, so I’d like you guys to sell me on something that might come out of it.
I think there’s definitely potential to touch themes like racism, sexism etc. while at the same time not condoning them.
Helping someone escape abusive circles or come to terms with their own identity would be alright for example.
Or trying to teach a racist old guy better ways…
I know it doesn’t have much to do with the World of Warcraft we know, but Worlds can evolve with the time.
How about a story were a certain race that was just living happily in their home before suffering a massive genocide by having their people be literally burned alive and their souls sent to be tortured for eternity, gets to punish the faction responsible for doing so, instead of having their female leader be told off any time she want to bring said faction to justice and ensure such an atrocity never happens again. And no, that does not need to be balanced with said genocidal faction punishing a single female admiral for “murdering” a monarch who was actively waging war against her, whom she did not even kill, and who was given ample opportunity to surrender.
This will sound extremely petty, but after knowing of all that stuff, I feel if ever a bit vindicated for all those times when I pointed at their obvious virtue signalling regarding some of their moves.
Anyway:
I dislike the “woke” term on principle because I think it’s often used as a derogatory way to label certain approaches.
If done right, what can be considered as “woke” is to be treated naturally and should never be considered as something negative.
But if we are to take on examples of previously misused themes that fell under this category:
I’d take ideas like the new racial customisation options for humans, and put some extra emphasis on their story relevance.
Not as some byproduct of player agency, but a narrative feature that eventually doubled on Stormwind as a beacon of inclusion for all human ethnic groups.
Black, or Asian features are given a lore background, and proper kingdoms to explain their presence (much like all other races already have), and then a story that has Stormwind welcoming them all in a inclusive way that highlighted how said differences only make the human (ingame) race, stronger.
That would be my prime proposal.
I think that women in power is a trope that has examples of both misuse and well written scenarios. I think they would just need to drop on the overly emotional and irrational theme for some of their protagonists (Tyrande, Jaina and Sylvanas), and lean more on the likes of Talanji.
For the rest, I can’t think of one that appropriately tackled the sexuality of anyone, but that’s because I don’t think that’s an aspect that needs to be highlighted all that much in the setting. I know it’s a personal taste, but I don’t think that sexual preferences (straight or otherwise), are all that relevant for the overarching narrative.
And often risk either creating token characters solely for the sake of pairing some protagonist, or stirring some teeny romance drama I honestly cba about…
Stories like this can exist and thrive in a certain time, place and mood. Right now, I feel like making a story around inclusivity should not involve around playable races in general mainly because there will always be someone or something that will use it as a negative than a positive. But this is just one of the more acceptable risks that can be avoided, even rewarded if done right.
Detachment in this case is a very good thing. However, it is also an extremely difficult thing because said races in this example are influential and widespread in the world already, alongside the fact that if it does not involve a sense of relativity, the audience aren’t as likely to give it a chance.
In this sense, I feel like exploring the greater elements and the good senses these races bring is a good path.
How about something around the Argent Crusade for once? What do they do beyond guarding and patrolling the Plaguelands or Scourge/Legion-infested areas? What do they do to renew the lands around them and how do their perceptions of barriers such as race or society change because of this?
How about a story of renewal? Stories of Night Elves moving on after their loss of their homeland, relying on the aid - and charity? - of the Alliance to help them make a new home for themselves. Are warmongerers and seekers of vengeance any better if they have left their own people in the dirt regardless? Moral quandaries like this and others can be explored fully.
For the Horde, how about what happens to the remnants of Sylvanas’ loyalists? Are they all to be executed one by one, including the blacksmith who needed to make a living by supplying the opposing army? Would it have been better for his/her family if they left and somehow survive on their way to Saurfang’s side? etc.
Hades and Persephone, Cupid and Psyche, Romeo and Juliet.
That kind of story always struck me as missing in WoW.
I know WoW isn’t big on the whole love theme, but I wouldn’t mind a love story across faction and race that revolves around the conflict of racial hatred and tradition, rather than having another bad guy that wants to take over the world.
Doesn’t need to be a Human and an Orc that falls in love, but something that isn’t “allowed” by someone.
I’d also like Blizzard to do a genderless race.
It always struck me as weird that all races in WoW have genders and the default is often male.
Like why do The Brokers need to have a gender? Why impose a certain male persona to an Old God like N’zoth?
I kind of wish Blizzard would explore their monster design and be a bit more creative with gender roles and personalities there. I mean, it’s fantasy, we’re in space, and I don’t think the aliens need to conform to human genders all the time. It gets a bit boring.
I think Blizzard does a lot on racism already. Genocides, internment camps, Garrosh’ true Horde, and so on. They seem to find plenty of inspiration in WWII. And that’s good. Fitting theme for WoW.
I would like more outcast stories. Blizzard did the cinematic with Gul’dan for WoD where he was cast out of his clan for being a cripple. Great story, but the twist was of course that Gul’dan just used power to pave his way and make up for his physical handicap.
I wouldn’t mind something like Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame where someone sees themselves as a monster, but someone else sees their human qualities, and then they build self-esteem and learn to love themselves for who they are, and that enables them to become a hero.
The pure version of Gul’dan’s story I guess.
idk feels like there’s no more point or appeal to doing versus faction war stories other than to piss off the community some more just to add to a non-existent tally as if it mattered in the first place.
there’s authors who make stories that can stir controversy, and there’s those that just bake a poop cake.
of course, im always open to be disproved. but i feel confident on my hill so far.
I think there are ways to create faction war stories for as long as we have neutral standpoints that grant both sides valid reasons to prosecute said conflict without demonising anyone.
Most of the community remains pissed precisely because they feel that several of their grievances weren’t properly addressed.
Sylvanas gave valid reasons for the Horde to want to start this war. But Blizzard screwed it by having some writer decide to smear all the logic out with a fresh shovel of villain poo.
Night elves had then valid reasons to want to continue the war. But Blizzard enforced the peace treaty out of their own inability to deal with the consequences of their careless handling of the war.
Zandalari also had valid reasons to want Jaina killed. But again, were tethered by the same plot restrictions as NE.
And so on.
The issue isn’t the theme. The issue is the fact that writers are unable to write it properly.
That’s not required for a story to be inclusive. Not at all. In fact you can use “bad-isms” to great effect to overcome and as a struggle, or whatever.
In fact WC3 is a really good example of this.
Why do you need to be “convinced” to tell a good story?
Did you like the traveler books?
Flyn and Shaw were tasteful and well written in my view. The novel was also the first time Shaw didn’t look like a tool.
What about princess Mononoke? Including in different ways, from leapers in a positive way, a minority in Japan, women shown in a diverse and also positive way etc.
Even the GoT novels can be used as an example of a different type of story with diverse characters.
Berserk also has some diverse elements and it is a masters work.
Wandering Son is a neat example too and I am not one with much experience with such stories.
Simply tell a good story. That’s the end.
More perspectives can bring interesting things to the table, more struggles and perspectives. This only enriches a story if handled well.
Edit:
I agree with this. Godzilla vs. King Kong. Fun is all that’s needs to be said here. Make it fun.
Or because they were forced into a war at a point where it was not warranted, just to push the Story of a very devisive Character and being forced to follow said character without question for months, before being able to change sides.
At the root of it, yeah, any story around conflict and faction war can be done to great effect. But that great effect is determined upon the responses and the kind of community it has and the authors responsible for it.
Like you said, most of the elements were half-baked and not given enough clout or follow-through to make them effective or nice enough stories to read or understand.
Yes, you can’t be anti-stuff without including the stuff in your story in some way. Some of those ways can work, others are just burning straw men.
No, I need to be convinced that there are good stories with these kins of themes that would enrich this specific game. So I want to hear some good story ideas. For WoW. I already mentioned that these themes can work well in general.
Well, I liked the first two… within the limitations of a child-friendly story. I did not like the third one and its rush to finish the escalating storylines at all.
Nothing against the way their relationship was portrayed, but I was pretty bored by it. If that’s the way to include this stuff, I don’t think I’ll like it. Romance is not the focus I would like to see in the future.
Nothing simple about that. Especially not with 20 years of baggage.
The war was not warranted at this point, having a reason doesn’t mean a war is needed.
Horde and Alliance worked together on the broken Isles, aside from Genn’s attack, they just saved the World together…
Also a Letter to Anduin with an Ultimatuum like “Punish Genn for the unprovoked attack in Stormheim, or there there will be war” would have been enough, Anduin wouldn’t have sacrificed thousands of Soldiers just to keep Genn around.
Also: After Legion both sides were severely weakened, making a war at the time even more stupid.
Of course like the bad guy in a 80’s action movie for example. You are correct nuance is important. It also depends on the type of story one want’s to tell. Nuance can lie in different motivations and points of view. It’s something to keep in mind for sure.
Understandably. It’s the same for me. They should have kept the first author.
I see. I think GoT and stories like Mononoke can give some ideas? It’s not that such things need to be hugely in the center.
Some small things can even work. Let’s take Anduin looking at a bar maid. For a different character simply change it around. A lazy example and only this would be almost pointless. I try to say it doesn’t have to be a huge thing.
My main example are really more GoT like stories for WoW.
It has to be said Azeroth doesn’t seem to have a lot of the problems that world has though.
Finding yourself, struggling during hardship (like a war) could potentially also be interesting, or work.
Not the focus for me either. It was a rare case it worked for me. I didn’t like Lorthemar and Thalyssra’s story on the other hand. I get that.
That’s not the same. It was warranted, we had reasons for it. Doesn’t mean it was needed in the story no. But it could have been well told, with nuance, struggle and or even a lot of fun.
Of course that’s not what we got and I respect your perspectives in it. It’s a valid view.
That’s not exactly an anti-sexism statement, though, is it? I mean, I would certainly like Anduin to have some more human flaws, but that’s a different matter. To make it one you would have to go into the damage that causes, and I don’t see an obvious way to make that part of an interesting plot. And halting the story instead to make your message heard is exactly the kind of negative outcome I would hope to avoid. That’s why I’m asking.
It was warranted. The Alliance attempted to assassinate the opposite faction leader during a ceasefire, and did so while actively killing Horde troops on their way to fight some third party.
When a similar scenario happened, Varian automatically marched against UC, and Night elves decided to cut all Horde access to Ashenvale.
The motives were there.
And that’s but the tip of the iceberg.
Even if the Horde had its share of aggressiveness, it has also historically had its grievances ignored. Both sides have.
Having Genn throw a match to that gasoline pool was the perfect Kickstarter for the conflict. One that would logically be taken as “Yeah, this is the last straw. Let’s fight”.
And the way the expansion was marketed ( Sylvanas rallying the Horde against an aggressive Alliance that marched against them), should’ve been the theme that dominated the expansion.
Not yet another ode to Alliance moral purity (to the point of stupidity), while smearing whatever validity Horde motives had, with a fresh paint of villain poop.
If the war happened directly after Stormheim I would maybe agree, but waiting a year or more, saving the World together seeing a Titan nearly destroy the planet and THEN saying “yeah, what you did back then was unacceptable, we play war now” is just plain stupid.
