Yeah I think that if the combo point system works for rogues, druids and warlocks, there can’t be a reason why it can’t work for paladins as well. If they switched to, say, mana, and abilities were still not working as a whole, then the problem would still be there.
Brainbead? Ah, you are referring to yourself I guess. Ret was considered simple to play and yet, the majority of the players didn’t perform well at it and I can sense from reading your comments that you were definitely one of those people who didn’t perform very well with it if ever played Ret during WotLK that is.
You wanna talk about braindead specs how about most Legion and BfA specs. Artifacts merely did any good to the overall specs. And it’s certainly didn’t improved in BfA. If you believe that generating holy power and spending it on either an AoE, a Single target attack, a Buff/Debuff(talent) or a Heal(talent) is any better than an actually fluid rotation where you have to manage your mana, know not to waste heals procs, having to make the decision of either using your Wings or Bubble, when to use your freedom(with talent to remove stun) and so much more impactful choices, is lamer than the easy mode stuff they’ve been giving to us as Ret since MoP, then you certainly must find some decency in yourself to not talk.
#removeholypower
Where do you get this that most paladins want it out?
I can’t really speak for holy and prot community but I’ve never seen people who play ret complain about it.
Most people who are complaining obviously play holy or prot but those who play ret are just taking advantage of the situation to push their vision of how the spec should be.
I’ve seen a fair amount of top holy paladins especially say they’d wish for holy power to return, to bring more depth to their spec.
Especially with holy’s recent playstyle of dishing out a lot of damage.
How is it proven to not work when for the past like 10 years it worked fine?
It worked best in MoP and WoD but it’s not like it didn’t work fine for all of the rest of expansion we’ve had it.
Ok, can you suggest a better system then?
One that would be better, more fluid and fun?
If that system is just hitting abilities that are not on cd then that’s a much worse system in my opinion.
Holy power is better because it allows for more depth, it rises the skill ceiling and makes you stand out from the others if you’re good at managing it.
Now of course it’s not rocket science to manage it but that’s where you’ll see the most difference, people who don’t mismanage their resources perform visibly a lot better because they get a lot more spenders in because of their better use of resources.
Once again, you can’t prove that I’m in the minority and you can’t prove that you’re in the majority.
I’m in touch with the ret paladin community and none of them are saying that they want holy power out of the game.
If you’re having a lot of downtime then it’s probably learn to play issue, which isn’t surprising since you yourself said that you are kind of new to the spec.
It certainly feels very junky with low gear, it gets better with gear.
That junky feeling however is a design choice made by blizzard for some reason, they feel that you should have downtime to “think about your next ability” and it sucks.
It wasn’t like that in previous expansion, it’s just that blizzard did a really bad job with class design in BfA in general and ret was hit with it.
Ret is a damage dealer, with some utility and you use that utility when needed, pretty much the same as with every spec, think Healthstones or the lock portal as examples.
It’s not your top priority, top prio is always doing damage, but the best rets are those who also use their utility in the right time.
Think using LoH on someone who is on 5% hp or using WoG while everyone has grievous active at 70% or something.
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“Simple” he says. Any ability that did damage, you used on cooldown. Its the very definition of braindead. If you think that kind of rotation is good, wow classic is calling you, soon to be TBC. That has no place in retail.
And I specifically said MoP. Its generally regarded as the best expansion for classes, as there was little pruning and it was all about class identity and not spec. All paladin specs had holy power and all three were fluid. Prot did not have GCD problems, so they could easily afford spending holy power to heal and so on. Holy had the first expansion in which they don’t spam heal the tank, and ret rotation was good, not to mention they had great healing and great utility AND mobility.
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Either you are delusional or you are plain lying. You can find people on this very forums who play Ret and have for years who wants it out of the game for Ret. You can find people on MMO-Champion and the US WoW forums as well as on Wowhead and many more places online where people who play Ret wants holy power to be removed.
Oh, you are delusional. It worked fine? Are you kidding me? It didn’t and people have been saying for a while now and they kept on promising to improve it, so either they can’t improve it or simply it cannot be improved. Combo points working for Rogue, Feral druids and WW Monk does not make a good system for Ret. Because we lack some many things they have, like mobility(sprint, baseline faster-running speed, charge/teleport, shapeshift), Impactful Dots(bleeds/poisons), alongside other utilities(, stealth, instant healing with no or low CD, lots of CC and faster regen for energy).
I can and I will. Give me some time and will make something up. I will research and craft something worth playing that does not involve the combo point mechanic.
Oh, yeah because I forgot retail is doing amazingly well right now. That’s your response to everyone right, “go back to classic”. I’m from the BC/WotLK era not Classic but to you, they all sound the same probably because you started playing during MoP.
And also, like I said, you were hitting what were available without actually putting any thoughts in your rotations because you were and still are a braindead player, again if you ever played WotLK. That does not mean every Ret were doing this. And that’s what distinguish the average Ret players to the good ones, and the pros from the good ones. But you wouldn’t know that, would you. You just pop your wings and start your basic 1,2,3,4 rotation with the occasional spam on the 5th keybind.
MoP is better than Cata, WoD, Legion and BfA. But not better than WotLK. Especially for Paladins, before the introduction of Holy Power, Paladins had it better during WotLK than any other expansions that preceded it. I agree GCD is a major problem especially because they’ve added it to almost every single cooldowns.
OK I am done with this discussion. Continue being everything that is wrong with WoW community. Holy power is here to stay, forgive me while I focus on more important things, like our mobility and utility, where you make childish tantrums about concepts you don’t understand. You were probably a full scrub through the lifetime of holy power anyway, you are not qualified to make this judgement about it.
Except that there is a reason for why it did not and probably will not work for Paladins. Prot and Holy are not DPS classes, that’s why you don’t have Combo Points for Resto Druids and Guardian Druids. And as for DPS, Rogues and Feral Druids have Impactful DoTs(multiple bleeds and poisons), high mobility (charge/teleport, low cd sprint, baseline faster running speed, shapeshift to remove snare or root, cloak of shadows immunity) and other utilities(Stealth being a major one, easy access to target to use their interrupts, alot of CC and are not depend of their burst CD to perform well), among other stuff.
You can also find people who think it’s fine.
It was you who always said that the majority of people want it gone and all I’m saying is how do you know it’s a majority?
Because I am frequently on the paladin discord, which has thousands upon thousands of members (bigger than any forum) and none of them are calling for removal of holy power.
Instead we’re discussing actual problems with ret and how to make them better.
How did it not work fine?
What was the problem with it?
You didn’t like it? Is that the biggest problem?
It was greatly improved in MoP and it worked fine since then, with a little bit of regression with BfA but that’s getting fixed in Shadowlands.
And they also lack the things we do have, like BoP, WoG, LoH, Freedom, we’re even getting Sacrifice back in Shadowlands.
The only thing I agree with is the mobility, you know, an actual problem that everyone wishes to be fixed and totally not at all connected to holy power.
Oh I can’t wait to see this.
I can’t wait to see the system Crisswyn is going to come up with.
The system that will save the entire paladin class all by itself and make WoW great again.
All monks had chi and they were pretty upset about its removal. Ever since Blizzard has struggled to balance mistweaver mana, as abilities that cost Chi now just costs a lot of mana instead.
Holy paladin was its strongest during WoD, where holy power was a thing. You were basically the automatic #1 healer in raids and the most sought after healer in general. Guess what? holy power.
This notion that healers can’t have combo points is utter nonsense. If its implemented well, they can and they will top healing charts with it.
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Well, you are the ones who are the problem in this community. For 5 expansions, they’ve listened to you people. Now is the time for them to actually listen to us who’ve been ignored for the past 10 years. And no, holy power is not here stay, not if the majority make their voices loud enough for them to realize that it’s not good system for Paladins.
Dude, Holy Power or No Holy Power, I’d rekt you in both PvP and PvE any day. And this is not a “come at me, bro” statement, it’s a genuine certainty, else I wouldn’t even bother to say it.
People who matter, like Sloot, already made their voice heard. He is important enough to have an interview with Ion in which he said its fine and its all about how its implemented and so far so good. You know, a conclusion anyone can reach, provided they use their brain.
Also did you just say 1v1 me brah? I swear the stereotype about human paladins on the forums are true, and you are the embodiment of it.
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It’s not a learn to play issue for the fella, it’s an issue that has been exposed by the stripped back systems of the game between Legion and BFA.
It shouldn’t require gear for a class’ playing systems to run smoothly, to simply work, that is a failure on the designer’s side. In no circumstance should a player log into a game, and their character is unbearable to play until you’ve invested X amount of hours into it. Why would anyone do that? Us long time Blizzard fans do it because we are foolishly committed or addicted to a game that we once knew to be brilliant.
I personally don’t think HoPo is the problem, and I’m not against it when the class is working smoothly, and honestly, I’m excited about what I’ve seen for SL so far.
The outrage over HoPo is understandable because our stripped classes between BFA and Legion have shown how frustrating it is to have a character at its base that has huge holes in it’s rotation, and unrewarding game play when you are sat drumming your fingers waiting for your abilities to come off cool down, and then finally hit a finisher that is just another weak single hit ability.
I’m with you on your opinions throughout this thread though, I’ve nodded some of yours posts. I don’t want a wack-a-mole play style, I really enjoyed Ret during WoD, HoPo has never been a problem for me, but it becomes a bad uninteresting system when all your class is based around is literally waiting to press a builder, then pressing your spender, and I understand people’s frustrations.
If there was a cool alternative I’d be all ears, but I simply don’t think it’s a problem if our rotation is full and fun.
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Oh, so now you backing down from your first claim. I thought you couldn’t find a single Ret that wanted Holy Power out. Now, you are using “also” in your statement.
Yes, because I bothered counting them. I counted the number of people who play Ret on both EU and US WoW forums, to find out that we were a majority who want it out.
Oh really, thousands of people, like-minded people you mean to say. The Paladins discord is not an official WoW discord, it’s being run by mere players. How is this a better source than the official WoW forums? Just by raw numbers? of like-minded people? It totally does not qualifies as a legit sampling source., stealth, instant healing with no or low CD, lots of CC and faster regen for energy
I’ll give you MoP but anything during Cata or after MoP was terrible. We lost most of your utilities, mobility, and fluidity after MoP. And each expansion after that we became more and more dependant on Wings window for proper DPS.
Because they don’t need it. That’s not a mere “see what they have and what we have” comparative statement. It’s attached to my response to why the “combo point system” works for them and not for us. Having BoP, WoG, LoH, and Freedom do not make Combo Point viable for us in any way.
At least, I will try. What are you doing besides complimenting each other on the Paladin discord and going around claiming that “Ret is fine”?
Oh people who matter, right right. Streamers, Youtubers and Influencers in general? The rest of the community counts for sh*t. And how is WoW doing since they started listening to Influencers instead of the community? I think that started in Post WotlK. The numbers of subs speak for itself. Also, your guy mainly plays tank. so…
Oh buddy, I’m even surprised you know how to spell “brain”. I wouldn’t count on you to spill out the basic functions of the human brains that even a toddler would know.
Human Paladins? Oh, you are a big brains, aren’t you. Well, in this case, I guess it’s because we are confident in our abilities to Rekt you in both PvE and PvP.
I agree with everything you wrote there.
Blizzard really dropped the ball when it comes to BfA and it sucks that we have to wait all the way until Shadowlands for them to fix it.
Still though, I’d rather wait until they’re finished with Shadowlands than them releasing Shadowlands early with broken classes like with BfA.
I’m not backing down from anything, it’s fairly obvious that there are some people who dislike holy power, I just wasn’t really looking hard enough I guess.
That’s an experiment doomed to fail, you can’t possibly draw any conclusions from a number that small, especially if you’re missing the discord.
Something to also take into account is that most people don’t really visit the forums so if there is something that a certain group of players don’t like that actually sometimes visits the forums.
They make a post and get a lot of responses, which makes it seem that a lot of the playerbase actually agrees with them but it’s actually just that certain group that becomes really active because of the thing they don’t like.
Because it’s where most people who play paladins interact with each other, because that’s where the best players congregate.
99% of the best players in the world don’t interact with the paladin class forum at all because they’ve got discord, the forum population is incredibly small compared to the discord one.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not official, MMOChamp isn’t official as well and yet you mentioned it earlier because it worked in your favor.
The paladin discord is where people guide new players to learn the class if they want to play it.
It’s literally the best place to be if you want to talk about paladins and with the amount of people that are there, there’s a lot of opinions.
One opinion I’ve yet to see there though is to take holy power out of the game and that says much.
False, the only thing we lost in WoD was Inquisition, everything else was the same.
It was Legion that stripped some of our utility yes but the only expansion where fluidity was a problem was BfA and that’s true for like 80% of the specs in BfA.
We became more dependant on wings yes but only because most of the specs became dependant on their cds as well, it’s just how blizzard designes the classes nowadays.
How is a combo point system tied to a utility of a class in any way?
How do bleeds affect combo point generation? or having stealth?
Answer is, they don’t. Classes have different strengths and weaknesses and therefore different utility spells.
Not whining on the forums about how a system is bad simply because I don’t like it.
Those people that you’re insulting are the ones that are making class guides, that are helping other people learn the specs, that are theorycrafting builds, spending their time testing a lot of things, making sims etc.
So yes, I’d rather see what they think of the changes instead of some random people on the forums living in the past and crusading against a system that’s been in the game for 10 years.
What you should actually do is just accept that holy power isn’t going anywhere.
Blizzard is not about to listen to some people who say they don’t like something and completely redesign it because of those small minority of people.
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It’s very different.
Sotr is now a 3hp spender and last the usual 4-5 sec, so it means to keep uptime, you have to use 3 cgd just to constantly recharge it. It’s a builder spender locked rotation, unless you go for divine purpose and get free procs. Even grand crusader procs are locked in due to gcd.
And in this, there is both no storing charges for big mitigation moments because HP is capped at 5 and to keep uptime you’re forced to spend gcd on builders taking out the option of using everything else that is on gcd (pretty much all our toolkit).
Moreover, i don’t think will stay like this anyway: at moderate to high gear especially with crusader judgment, you can pretty much spam constantly judgment, meaning a potential 100% uptime of sotr, way too much unless without it we are totally squishy and if it’s like this, we will be garbage the first two patch and shine only at end expansion.
lotp is on cd, but its a separate one from sotr, so i can have 3 charges of uptime and add in self heal for myself at the same time, not possible with the new hp system.
PS: thanks for mentioning slootbag, didn’t know his channel.
I do play ret here and there.
And despite not liking HP (i’d rather have mana) is a system that can work providing you have enough spell or lower cd to have a flowing rotation and not the huge gaps we have now.
Having more baseline spell to fill the gaps and the new talent distribution that gives you both divine purpose and inq/crusade, should fix the rotation.
If we want to really be picky, ret is still going to miss legion judgment to have some cleave, we’re still going to be pure ST or Aoe heavy with little in between.
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From someone who has no down records on warcraftlogs, yeah, we’ll trust ya.
Ret was not fluid in wotlk neither :
-Long CD
-Exorcism was not instant, unless we have a proc.
-We had to wait 2P T10 to get a reset chance on DS.
Nein, not fluid, not better at all.
The downside of holy power for protection paladin is that it makes haste the unrivaled BiS by a very far margin. Actually makes all other stats irrelevant. Whcih goes to show holy power is not the problem, GCD is. With holy power coming back, some abilities need to be put off GCD and I believe it will fix a lot of protection’s problems.
Yeah, because it’s known to be an official World of Warcraft website right? Much like Rio and simcraft.
That’s a major bs.
I never said it was instant off procs. You are saying like if I didn’t know. But I did mention this to you once in a few months old posts on the Paladin forums. But with you goldfish memory I guess you don’t even remember. Hence why I don’t see a point talking to you.
Talked about this. But you keep on bringing up the same argument again and again. Broken Record much?
Yes, very much fluid in comparison to what we had in WoD, in Legion and now have in BfA.