Interesting. Especially that Grizzly Icicle and Firestorm.
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Grisly icicle is my favorite for sure, but I can’t help but think of it as a confirmation that shatter deep freeze is not comming back for any of the specs 
.
Which really worries me for the state of mages in PvP with the huge mobility and survivability nerfs that we’re getting. Melees will probably run us over without a healer.
Expanded Potential, Arcane Harmony, Triune Ward, Sun King’s Blessing, Cold Front and Glacial Fragments, I think are the best ones so far.
Disciplinary Command - Sounds underwhelming without Shatter baselined on all specs.
Grisly Icicle - Super good for solo questing, not good enough anywhere else. Party members can still break it. Doesn’t work vs bosses. In PvP it’s ironically best vs casters, since nearly every melee spec has a root escape now and the 10% dmg is negligible considering you’ll mostly get a spell or two into it.
Temporal Warp - Seems too overnerfed compared to the legion ring, probably gonna underperform.
Arcane Bombardment - Just like Arcane Pressure - really nice, BUT it does absolutely nothing to targets out of execute range, quite underwhelming.
Siphon Storm - Basically current Brain Storm. Just smooths out your rotation a little and gives you a small damage buff AFTER your burn phase. I don’t like this itteration at all. Pre-nerf Brain Storm was fun, adding a huge intellect boost for short duration, not this.
Fevered Incantation - Probably good, personally find it boring. Unless you can somehow reach high secondary stats like now and stack full on crit.
Molten Skyfall - Procs off rotational spells, making it clunky to time with burst cooldowns and has no fun interactions with other spells.
Slick Ice - I like the effect, but Icy Veins is still on 3min cooldown.
Freezing Winds - I like the Frozen Orb cd reduction on Frostbolt, but we already have quite a bit of FoF proc generation, additional procs might just get munched.
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For frost it’s gonna shatter every attack, you can spam ice lance. Also frost nova can have 2 charges 
Well its kinda nerfed version of Deep Freeze, but enemy can still use abilities and ranged abilities. Hope its stays the way it is. Maybe it only does not break by damage made by Mage himself and its still magic effect. It has counterplay.
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The frost nova one seems very situational. Every magical dispell and every root break rids of it. It won’t do anything against druids, paladins, priests, monks, warriors (unless you use it right after they bladestorm) and against anything with a healer, you’ll be forced to go dps if you want to get any value out of the nova because every healer has a magic dispell.
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Also:
Rogue can vanish, cloak of shadows it.
Havoc DH gets honor talent that makes immolation aura dispel magic effects off of them, on 18sec cd i think.
DK can wraith walk it or lichborne it.
Hunters have pet freedom.
Other mages can blink it(if not shimmer).
So that leaves warlocks and non-resto shamans.
I suppose, but is (maybe)getting 3-4 ice lances into a DR frostnova really worth losing Frigid Winds/RoF/Chrono Shift?
The 10% dmg bonus seems too minor, feels like more of a utility legendary tbf.
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Arcane one looks underwhelming. Like… all arcane mages: please please mantle of kirin tor (barrage-orb legendary)
Blizzard: here you have cord of infinity, the leg no one used in legion.
???
The comedy show goes on and on.
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Im a bit worried about Warrior’s Legendary Leaper- Heroic Leap gains 2 additional charge.
Feels brokenly op in PvP situations… Like really?
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No need to worry. Even without that legendary, we still won’t be able to get away with the mobility nerfs.
In either way mages are gonna get trained by any melee, even maybe by ret pallys, if nothing drastic happens to our toolkit.
I think these changes would be good enough:
General: All specs get Cone of Cold, Blink is removed from GCD, Alter Time undispellable and Ring of Frost baseline.
Arcane: Frostbolt removed, Temp Shield baseline, AP off GCD, Charged Up of GCD, Arcane Orb baseline, Mark of Aluneth as lvl 100 talent(70% undispellable slow for 6sec) and Clearcasting reverted to Legion functionality to make Slipstream more viable.
Fire: Blazing Speed baseline, Frostfire bolt replacing Frostbolt so it also generates Hot Streaks and Blastwave baseline.
Frost: Lonely Winter baseline(like MM’s Lone Wolf) but you also gain pet’s freeze, Ice Floes baseline, Ebonbolt baseline and reverted to shadowfrost damage, Freezing Rain baseline, Burst of Cold baseline, Concentrated Coolness baseline and Icy Veins off GCD.
It might seem like a lot, but you gotta keep in mind that both Fire and Frost lost Temp Shield, Arcane lost Displacement, Shimmer CD got increased by 25% and all other classes compared to that got either more mobility, more CC, more utility or even all of those.
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I absolutely agree. This new dev team is horrible.
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So you want mages to be completely op? lol There’s bound to be more changes to fire and arcane before shadowlands. Fire still has a missing talent due to them trying to figure out ignite. Arcane has 5 or 6 gcds before their burn. They seem to be changes specs every week on the alpha. Once they figure out these issues pvp tuning is more likely to be done.
Yea, might be a bit too much with undispelable Alter Time, Blazing Speed baseline for Fire, Ice Floes working on Sheeps and the pet Freeze from Lonely Winter. But everything else, I think is fine.
But that’s mostly because they reverted Shimmer back to 2 charges, even with the reduced CD. I mean, this talent alone carried mage in PvP in the last 2 expansions. You either have it and you play the game or you don’t and you’re useless.
Cone of Cold baseline for all specs is nothing ground breaking, just replaces the useless Frostbolt that we get for fire and arcane.
Blink off GCD should be the norm. Ever since Legion class changes, Blink has been garbage mobility, since it’s on the GCD and cannot compete with other classes mobility.
Alter Time is replacing Temp Shield for Fire/Frost and has no dispel protection with longer CD, making it waaaay worse. At least there should be an honor talent making it undispealable.
RoF baseline might be a little too much, but it’s so underused in it’s row, sucks for such an iconic ability.
For Arcane:
Temp Shield baseline…I mean it’s already 100% pick rate no matter what. Should just be baseline at this point.
AP, Charged Up off GCD doesn’t really need explanation.
Arcane Orb baseline should’ve been the norm ever since it was added.
Mark of Aluneth as last row talent that replaces Touch of the Magi, I think is a nice idea.
Clearcasting shouldn’t have been changed in the first place, current one gets affected by AP mana cost reduction = anti synergy, it’s dumb.
For Fire:
Blazing Speed on a second thought might be better off as a talent on the Shimmer row, if we get undispelable Alter Time + Blast Wave baseline, it will be too much.
Blastwave baseline I don’t think is particularly 100% needed if other changes goes through, but having more of these tools would mean that we don’t need to be as tanky to stay our ground vs melees.
For Frost:
Lonely Winter as baseline with the same functionality as Lone Wolf for MM hunters, I think would be a very welcome change that many mages want.
It’s current issue in PvP is that you sacrifice 2 roots for not that big of a damage gain, making you too volatile against melees and losing on a lot of utility.
Ice Floes baseline would be the main compensation for losing Temp Shield and getting longer Shimmer CD, but it might need a charges nerf or make it work only on frost abilities.
Ebonbolt baseline is not needed, but adds more depth to the rotation and castable dmg while kicked on frost.
Freezing Rain baseline just feels right, making the AOE rotation feel way smoother.
Burst of Cold baseline is not rly needed, but it’d be awesome if CoC did damage like back in the day, instead of being used solely for slows.
Concentrated Coolness baseline is a no-brainer, Frozen Orb pathing has always been an issue.
Icy Veins off GCD, not really needed, but there’s no reason for it to be in the first place.
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I dont want Mages to be op. I want every Class to feel really good and not getting destroyed by reason that others have way stronger toolkit. Right now once my “op” Shimmer is gone Im melee fodder, because I cant kite anymore properly. Its sucks so bad you have no clue.
We need that effing Cone Of Cold back jesus…
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Dragon’s breath is fire’s CoC
Temp shield was dispelable too and alter time also has a kiting use.
Commonly used in m+ and pvp isnt it?
Touch of the Magi is a cleave ability
Honestly never even heard this idea. Frost’s talent tree is one of the best I know imo, doesn’t feel like there’s any dead talents.[quote=“Vîndy-ravencrest, post:12,
topic:159916”]
Freezing Rain baseline just feels right, making the AOE rotation feel way smoother.
[/quote]
I think there’s going to be a generic leggo choice that lets you pick two talents on a row… I heard people talk about it.
I would love a way to have this in pve even without the 10% it would be a dps increase but it would take away some of the gameplay. Orb placement is one of the only challenging parts of frosts rotation.
Icy viens on gcd is dumb.
I expect pvp talents to get big changes when they finish changing the base abilities and talents. I think some weird things are still in there like holy priest’s prayer of mending instant cast talent even though thats baseline now. There will be lots of changes to come. I wouldn’t be surprise if we get a nice new def talent to replace temp shield, just something not so similar to alter time.
Since they like giving us abilities no one asked for - how about bake in unstable magic for arcane? It would be at least a little help for cleave.
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I agree, but it wouldn’t feel right for Arcane to get it and Fire not to, so idk.
Temp Shield has a dispel protection, even if it gets dispelled, it heals back all the damage taken so far. If Alter Time gets dispelled, the whole effect is gone and that’s a big deal, considering how crucial Temp Shield is for PvP survivability.
By fire, but not the other specs. Chrono Shift and Frigid Winds are way superior to RoF.
So is Mark of Aluneth? 
The same idea just got posted in wowhead’s frost mage shadowlands feedback thread, it’s nothing new really.
And yes, I do agree that frost has many talent options, but it’s not in a good way.
The base spec feels very bareboned and lacks a lot, the talents just fill the holes in it.
“Wanna play a big frostbolt shatter build like in the old days?” Sure, just pick Lonely Winter, Frozen Touch, Frigid Winds, Freezing Rain, Deep Shatter, Frostbite and Ice Form…Oh? You have trouble kiting or putting out any damage while you’re under pressure by melees, since you sacrificed all your ranged roots, honor talents and instant damage, just to make your Frostbolt not tickle? Well too bad!
See my issue with the talents now?
So far that’s only apparent as a Torghast power, it’s not a choice in the datamined mage legendaries. But it could happen.
The only gameplay that it takes away is that you won’t have to go in melee range, just to make sure that your Frozen Orb won’t get stuck on a pixel while on its way to the pack of mobs. Having bad AI adding additional challenges is the complete opposite of what we need, it’s just annoyance.
No, there was a reason mages wanted Unstable Magic gone. Having a random cleave proc on your main rotational spell is horrible, you don’t always want to cleave in every situation, we’re not demon hunters.
Cleave issue can be easily fixed by just adding more baseline damage to Arcane Barrage, with Arcane Orb baseline and Touch of the Magi/Mark of Aluneth.
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I know and I agree. My suggestion was more… sarcastic, because i fear they won’t touch arcane too much before everything goes live. 
but pls pls dear blizzard, prove me wrong.
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Like every other class and spec, there are really no choices between talents, except from the crowd control talents maybe and the 4th row. Maybe you can see some varation in PvP but still not much.
For example in PvE there is no reason to choose Lonely Winter over Bone chilling, unless you want to deliberately lower your dps output. The damage increase from Bone chilling is waaaay to much compared to Lonely Winter, and you also have a a pet freeze as a bonus…
Second row? Shimmer. I think noone has ever clicked (or mouseovered) the other 2 talents.
3rd row. Well, i’ve seen some players using Rune of Power in PvE, but only while leveling. Although i do not like Incanter’s Flow, its the to-go talent since it gives a more sustained damage increase and it allows you to move arround freely.
4th row. This is the only row (apart from crowd control row) that it actually has multiple choices, depending on what build you play. This row (in my opinion) should be an example on how all other rows should be.
5th row. Havent seen any other frost mage not using splitting ice.
6th row. Same here. Glacial spike.
Frost mage used to have a more diversive talent tree. When they decided to change Mastery, it all went down the drain. Before the change, Lonely Winter was just as powerfull. Rune of Power was also really powerfull (too powerfull tbh). Not to mention that it absolutely changed our stat weight.
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There’s been 3 different cemented builds this expac and 2 of them use lonely winter. Rune of power was also in one of those. Comet storm was the go to early in the expac and is good on fights like hivemind, vex, carapice. Freezing rain is great on big pulls and used in one of the ST builds too. Thermal void is also used in 2/3 builds.
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