Shadowlands Marksman Hunter Suggestions

Classes Hunter
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After seeing the changes to Hunters in Shadowlands, I wanted to provide feedback and discuss the changes that could be added to Marksman Hunter to make it a better spec. Overall, I think the changes to Hunter is a start, but not the end. In this thread, I aim to provide feedback on improving Hunter, particularly Marksman; any suggestions or feedback is welcome, of course.

Iconic Abilities
Hunter’s didn’t go far enough with the class “unpruning”: despite Brian’s promise that this would change. Here are a list of abilities I want to come back baseline for Hunter:

  1. Aspects. More specifically: Aspect of the Hawk, Aspect of the Fox, and Aspect of Nature, and Aspect of the Cheetah.
  • Aspects were central to Hunters throughout history, with most expansions keeping their aspect, they were really cool and fun. Similar to paladins auras, Hunters are their “defining” mechanic that kept them different from other classes.
  • I would prefer each aspect to be displayed in a row that you could click on.
    Why Aspect of the Hawk: it was a permanent buff while active, that granted the Hunter additional agility/attack power. This buff would only apply to the Hunter, and would grant additional stats, regardless of which raid buffs they had.
  • Why Aspect of the Fox: cast aimed shot and steady shot while moving was iconic. It led to a trade-off between mobility and damage. Do you want to stay in Hawk and do more damage, or stay in Fox at the cost of losing damage.
  • Aspect of the Cheetah remains in some form, I would preferred it as a clickable ability that has a permanent effect until you take damage. Why? Its current incarnation is press and forget. The older version had some thought when you needed to use it.
  • Why Aspect of Nature: it had its niche use, but it was fun to finally find a fight where you would increase all nature resistance by X.
  1. Lock and Load and Explosive Shot.
  • Why rework survival when you rework 2 spells to get the same result. Change Explosive Shot to its original MoP form, where it would apply instantly, ticking over 2 seconds.
  • Explosive Load (new talent): unlocks Explosive Shot, Explosive Trap (AoE, targeted ability), and Flaming Trap (single target). Each ability has a chance to trigger Lock and Load.
  • Lock and Load could read: causes your next aimed shot to be instant, OR cause your next 2 explosive shot to cost 0 focus and have no cooldown. All spells have a chance to trigger Lock and Load.
  • Black Arrow (talent) rework: fire a shadow arrow at up to 3 targets within 30 yards, lasting 30 seconds; each tick has a chance to trigger Lock and Lock. Reduces the cooldown by 1 second each time Explosive Shot is cast. If black arrow cast again before it has finished, all remaining ticks elapse, instantly dealing all remaining damage, and has an increased chance (based on ticks remaining) to trigger Lock and Load.

Design Insight [Optional Read]
The purpose of Explosive Load talent is to provide a few ways to trigger Lock and Load. The main two is Explosive Shot for single target and Explosive Trap for AoE. The idea with Black Arrow is to cast explosive shot during it to reduce its cooldown so you can cast it sooner. When you cast it sooner, all ticks remaining increase the chance for Lock and Load to trigger, granting more explosive shots. The more explosive shots you get, the greater the cooldown reduction for black arrow is. The greater the cooldown reduction for black arrow is, the more lock and load procs you will get. In other words, Explosive Shot, Lock and Load and Black Arrow all have synergy with each other.

If needed, you can add Lock and Load to baseline, and add one of the new talents I have suggested (such as Executioner) to replace Lock and Load.

  1. Serpent Sting + Chimera Shot
    Many also like Wrath’s Marksman rotation - so let’s add that too.
  • Add serpent sting baseline, and add Chimera Shot as a talent to replace Serpent Sting. When Chimera Shot is cast, consume serpent sting to instantly fire an Aimed Shot. Increases the next Aimed Shot by 50%. Chimera Shot cooldown 8 seconds. (If Explosive Shot talented): instantly reset the cooldown of explosive shot, increasing the next explosive shot by 15%.
  1. Change Rapid Fire so it only provides 40% extra haste when cast at the cost of an increased cooldown (maybe 4 min cooldown). Alternatively, offer it as talent to replace Streamline.
  2. Offer a new talent Readiness that causes all Aimed Shots within 12 seconds to be instant cast; at the end of the duration, reset all cooldowns less than 5 minutes.

Design Insight [Optional Read]
Serpent Sting is used to setup your rotation. Serpent Sting then Chimera Shot to obtain a free Aimed shot. The talent Readiness and Rapid Fire rework is essential in this regard. When you Rapid Fire, you gain 40% extra haste and focus regeneration, allowing you to cast more steady shots to gain focus, but more importantly, more aimed shots can be cast since you will have more focus during the duration. This will be your main burst phase. At the end, it will reset the cooldowns of all other abilities so there will be a smooth transition to the rotation you will be using over the next 3/4 minutes (depending on cooldown of Readiness), which will then lead to repeat of using Readiness, and spamming Aimed Shot.

  1. Other abilities Baseline
  • Concussive Shot (daze target 25%)
  • Widow Venom (reduce healing 20%)
  • Cobra Shot (talent) replaces Steady Shot; refreshes the duration of Serpent Sting. If not applied, automatically applies it to target. Additionally, Multi-shot will refresh the duration of serpent sting to all targets in 15 yards. if the target doesn’t have it, apply Serpent Sting to target. Provides 3 more focus than Steady Shot.
  • Explosive Recoil (talent): fires Explosive Shot (if talented, Aimed Shot otherwise) at all targets within 15 yards, increasing by 5% for each target with serpent sting. Consumes serpent sting after it. (3 minute cooldown)
  • Stampede baseline (from MoP). You are a Hunter. It is awesome to have a flurry of pets attack your enemy!
  • Executioner (Talent): Each time Kill Shot is cast, store an Aimed Shot charge that stacks up to 2 times, that affects the next aimed shot, reducing the focus cost by 50% for each charge, increases casting speed by 50% for each charge but reduces its damage by 5% for each charge (max with 2 charges is 100% focus cost reduction, 100% cast speed increase, and 10% damage reduction).

Design Insight [Optional Read]
Concussive Shot and Widow Venom are abilities synonymous with Hunter. They have been there for a very long time. Cobra shot is a neat little tool used to quickly apply serpent sting and generate more focus. Explosive Recoil has a bit of setup required; first you would apply serpent sting to many targets, then use Explosive Recoil. Now, this is where it gets interesting: the talent Cobra Shot will make it much easier to apply Serpent Sting for newer players, making Explosive Recoil much easier to use for new players. However, more elite players can opt to skip the Cobra Shot talent, and choose to apply Serpent Sting themselves; the consequence for that will make Explosive Recoil harder to setup, but more satisfying for elite players, with the benefit of gaining a new talent.

Executioner synergises with the Kill Shot ability, particularly the talent Dead Eye, that allows you to cast Kill Shot twice. As execution talents are particularly useful in mythic raids and high mythic keystones, this talent would likely be best in a competitive row that does not contravene the core rotation. In other words, you shouldn’t have to sacrifice your core rotation by accessing this talent.

I think the first 3 is essential (aspects, lock and load, serpent sting and chimera shot). Number 4 (talent that buffs rapid fire with 40% haste) and 5 is important for pacing and refining the spec by introducing new mechanics. Suggestion 6 is a desirable additions that I would love to have that would make Hunter far more fun.

  1. Other Suggestions (optional) - Possibly Beast Master or Marksman
    All the suggestions here are not essential to BM/MM, but could be cool or interesting if added:
  • A new gameplay system between Hunter and pet. You form a bond with your pet.
  • Over time, as you use your pet and form a deeper bond, you unlock new abilities:
    Tier 1 (Acquaintance): Spirit Bond. You and your pet regenerate 2% of max health every 2 seconds. (You get this first time you get a pet).
    Tier 2 (Friends): Unlock Aspect of the Iron Hawk (reduce damage by 10%).
    Tier 3 (Good Friends): Exhilaration. Restore 30% of your max health to you and your pet. Unlock Blink Strike for your pet. Teleport behind enemy, dealing 100% more damage in the next attack.
    Tier 4 (Exceptional Friends): Unlock Fervor. Grants you and your pet 30 Focus each, as well as an additional 30 Focus over 10 seconds. Unlock Lynx Rush for pet. Apply bleed effect to target, stacking up to 5 times.
  • This bar fills up every time you complete quests, dungeons, or raids, with your pet. When you obtain a new pet, this bar resets to 0. Every pet starts at Tier 1
    2.1 Pet Uniqueness
    It was fun when each pet had a unique buff - let’s bring that back. Wolves increase crit by 5%; cats increase agility by 540; raptors apply a 5% armor reduction stacking debuff; monkeys stun the target; bats silence the target; tigers increase mastery by 240; leopard increase haste by 325 / versatility by 450, etc. Make them have different buffs again.

I look forward to all your feedback and I do believe Hunter, specifically Marksman, needs serious changes to make it fun again. Please, look at these changes and think if it will make the spec fun. I don’t care about the numbers, as long as it feels fun, refreshing, and satisfying.

Overall Design Feedback [Optional Read]
Generally, what I am doing here, is building talents and spells that have synergy with each other. Spells that depend on Serpent Sting to do increasing damage; talents that make it easier to apply Serpent Sting if you’re a newer player. All of these talent choices determine skill expression: newer players that have difficulties will opt to choose the easier talents; while the elite players may decide to choose other talents that do not make it easier to apply these effects, but instead empower other parts of the kit.

Thank you for reading.

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I’m sorry but this is not a Marksmanship gameplay here. but it’s what the forum call it " the 4rd spec of hunter " , based from Survival ranged hunter.

It’s not because you got Aim Shot that it’s Marksmanship.

Marksmanship is based on Lone Wolf / stand by 50% of the time to cast and the rest he’s mobile.

But yea if that projet goes for the 4th spec, i’m ok with that. But don’t set it For Marksmanship hunter.

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I understand, but over the years Marksman was not a spec that was iconic with Lone Wolf. That spell became more known in Legion and BFA.

Marksman spans back in Wrath, where Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot were all instant casts. That is the incarnation that is most known, and most popular. To suggest that Marksman is a spec because of Lone Wolf and immobility is not true. Back in Cata and MoP, Lone Wolf didn’t exist - it was known for Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot again. Even back in MoP and Cata, they were more mobile than they are today with Aspect of the Fox. Hence, I disagree with Marksman being based exclusively on Lone Wolf.

Ultimately, the changes I have suggested aren’t enough to warrant an entirely new 4th spec, but, they are enough to achieve the goal:
a) MoP survival Hunters will be happy
b) Wrath Marksman Hunters will be happier, achieving a closer spec to how it was back then, than ever before.

Adding those two types of playstyles in a single spec was my goal, and I think it’s not needed to add a 4th spec, when not many changes are needed to make this happen.

Now you may note: there are a few new talents I’ve suggested. Some of them are for added flavour, but others are essential to make the specs work.

For example, changing Lock and Lock won’t make much difference to other marksman players. Adding a talent to add Explosive Shot, Explosive Trap and Flaming Trap instead of just a single talent adding Explosive Shot, won’t affect other Marksman hunters in any way. Black arrow is already a talent - just reworked. Adding serpent sting baseline, with Chimera Shot to replace it won’t affect marksman hunters currently.

The point I am making here: most of these changes will not affect the current rotation of a marksman hunter; they are there to complement the spec and add more options for people to play the Hunter how they want. I want to stress that: Marksman Hunter is not defined by Lone Wolf. It is defined by many other aspects; these changes reinforce the strengths of the Marksman Hunter and makes most other hunters much happier as a result.

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Any specialisation before Mist of Pandaria never existed, because before Hunter was a general classe with classic tree were you could take some BM tree and some Survival and some MM tree. It was never like 100% Marksmanship even inside the gameplay you got BM and Survival Spell in base Spellbook.

And When MoP appear they started slowly to do not make a brutal change from what was based on Hunter before, that why pet stayed as MoP so they were no brutal change.

actually i don’t want to see back this spell. but this is my opinion ^^.

Serpent sting and Chimera shot is very Much BM and Survival gameplay thought.
Marksmanship got already Arcane shot as instant spell, i prefer to see a more caster mobile gameplay than instant spell caster mobile like BM, that why people want a 4 spec so we can get a Instant caster Spell not that much based on pet.

But i define more MM hunter as Caster mobile, and that is what i like .

personnally Lone Wolf is the reason why i play Marksmanship actually : i like casting spell while being mobile , but i hate getting a pet and that i have to manage a AI. That why i don’t like BM and Survival too beacause of the pet.

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actually i don’t want to see back this spell. but this is my opinion ^^.

That is fine! It’s optional to take it. This is a talent for those that DO want to play Hunter in that way. It’s giving other Hunters more options.

Serpent sting and Chimera shot is very Much BM and Survival gameplay thought.
Marksmanship got already Arcane shot as instant spell, i prefer to see a more >caster mobile gameplay than instant spell caster mobile like BM, that why people want a 4 spec so we can get a Instant caster Spell not that much based on pet.
But i define more MM hunter as Caster mobile, and that is what i like .

In Wrath, Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot were two abilities you could only obtain in the Marksman tree - you could not get those abilities in Beast Master or Survival tree. In Cata and MoP, Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot were two abilities you could only get for speccing into Marksman. Chimera Shot has been a Marksman ability for probably over 10 years. Chimera Shot was only added to BM in Legion - but Marksman had it before Legion, and for much longer!

Anyway, if you review the recent Shadowlands changes, you will see:

  • Arcane Shot is now available for BM and Survival
  • Kill Shot is now available for BM and Survival.

Arcane Shot is very much Marksman gameplay over the years, so the fact Blizzard have given other specs Arcane Shot, means that Blizzard are changing the way they provide spells to the class. If Blizzard are adding Arcane Shot to BM and Survival, then I believe Blizzard could make a few changes to add to Marksman.

Let me ask you this:
Do you think it makes sense to add Arcane Shot and Kill Shot to Survival? Remember it is a melee spec.

If adding two ranged abilities to a melee spec doesn’t make sense, then why should adding new interesting abilities to Marksman be any different? Times have changed, and I think it’s time to change Marksman too.

personnally Lone Wolf is the reason why i play Marksmanship actually : i like >casting spell while being mobile , but i hate getting a pet and that i have to >manage a AI. That why i don’t like BM and Survival too beacause of the pet.

That is fine! With these changes you can still play Lone Wolf. You can still play exactly as you play today. These talent changes won’t affect your way of playing. They just open up more options for other players to play the game how they like. More options isn’t bad, right? Having more ways to play Marksman could be more fun - heck you might one day play those other talents, and find them fun.

With the marksman changes I suggested, nothing will change for you. The only thing that will change is for other Hunters that want to play differently than you. We all like to play our class differently, and I think these spec changes to Marksman will help the other Hunters out.

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Yea but wasn’t it defined in the spell book in Marksmanship section because the damage source gone from the hunter itself.

I rememebered the difference like BM = pet spell / MM = Hunter ranged damage / Survival = melee and trap
i may be wrong too .

true !

for all spec since we didn’t got that spell in Legion and BFA :smile: ( How dare you forget MM hunter !)

They wanted Survival to be the hybrid spec between ranged and melee spec in BFA, and a lot of player asked for that to make survival both ranged and melee.
I don’t know if you watched some but in Arena survival is melee to burst with mongoose strike and then come back distant for serpent sting / bombs / CC / Kill commands .

the thing is you got a big huge part were pet is invlved

This is half of the gameplay involving pet. If we play with that gameplay with lone wolf it’s almost deleting -35% of the gameplay and damage/survival.

That why i consider it more for a 4th spec than Marksmanship.

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the thing is you got a big huge part were pet is involved

Oh that’s what you meant. So that is a valid point. So that part of the suggestion was not the main part of the marksman changes, it was just a last minute cool idea I came up with. I see your point, it doesn’t make sense to have all those pet buffs with marksman - but perhaps they could definitely add those changes to beast master.

The other way to balance it would be to buff Lone Wolf to compensate for the buffs to those pets. But for those pet changes, they weren’t the core part of the marksman changes. The core part of the marksman changes were the changes to talents. Anything that is a change to pets is not essential, and is just a cool feature I thought could change with Hunters in general.

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yea that why i was like at the start

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