Shadowlands: You should be able to choose ALL covenants

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Bauldheed-moonglade

So the same as the game has been since it was created then?

No.

• In beta you couldn’t respec at all
• In vanilla they decided to let you respec because otherwise you had to grind 250 hours again just to reach 60. The cost increased to a cap of 50 as you respecced to make it prohibitely expensive.
• In tBC this wasn’t changed, but gold was more abundant.
• In WotLK we got dual spec
• In Cata nothing changed other than the structure of the trees themselves
• In MoP we got the new talents and this is how it’s been ever since

So the whole “you can respec any time you want” thing wasn’t in the game until 9 years after release.

@Tjmage-twisting-nether

Covenant choices are fine, as long as the abilities are de-coupled from them.

I like covenants and the idea behind them. Me picking a covenant is a meaningful choice that will shape my experience in the months to come.

Power being tied to a significant roleplaying choice is the centerpiece of the whole thing. If you play D&D, for instance, you have to make a ton of choices that come with different powers. You can even multiclass and pick different subspecs.

And these choices stick. Almost all of them forever - in fact it is at the discretion of the dungeon master only, and in rare circumstances - that you may change them.

And before you say “But that’s a game you RP in, in this one people will compete” I’ll pre-emptively say: Exactly. We’ve become so focused on competition we’ve forgotten about character customisation.

We have started seeking to make sure a suboptimal choice can never be made for fear that it will be suboptimal, enslaving the entire experience to people whose only interest it is to compete and make fun of others who don’t.

@Tjmage-twisting-nether

Not being locked into a talent.

You’re not locked in. You’re choosing not to roleplay and instead pick what you think is strongest, and then you’re no doubt going to get upset when Blizzard tries to restore balance.

You’re like all those people who, for years, came onto the forums and asked “What’s the best class?!”

Eventually people wisened up to this stupid question. Looks like we need another one of those wake-up calls.

@Tjmage-twisting-nether

It doesn’t subtract from your experience one bit, but it does ruin the experience of a large portion of the playerbase who want to optimize their character.

Yes, it actually does. If it didn’t, do you think I would care?

This paragraph, really, reveals the whole truth: You don’t actually care at all what kind of issues or compromises I highlight as a consequence of your idea. You have no interest in considering the trade offs. Instead you fervently believe that your idea is the only right idea because there is no way that any other way of doing it has any advantages, even when told of them.

You’re no doubt the sort of person that preferred Warcraft 2 over Warcraft 3 because in Warcraft 2 your choice of aesthetics wouldn’t make you pick a suboptimal race and strategy - because they were almost the same.
It’s boring.

People will not all converge on the same if it is sufficiently hard to do so. If one is too strong and they all go for it, then all go for another when it gets buffed, then all have to go back later, they’ll all be in the same mess.

That leaves two outcomes:

1. Blizzard will keep changing them so often that people will give up and this hyper-competitive mentality will start to shake off where it isn’t needed
2. Blizzard will not change it, you pick your covenant according to your preference - whether that’s power or roleplaying - and that’s it.

[Amonet-stormrage]

D&D is not a MMO tough, and im still waiting on my list whit MMORPGs that have “meaningfull choices” such as borrowed player power.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Amonet-stormrage

D&D is not a MMO tough, and im still waiting on my list whit MMORPGs that have “meaningfull choices” such as borrowed player power.

Older versions of WoW that were far more succesful than this one.

Also, there are D&D MMO’s such as Neverwinter, but that’s beside the point.

I’d like for you to explain to me why it being an MMO means it has to not be an RPG. You might be able to teach the makers of WoW a thing or two.

[Amonet-stormrage]

Noo not really. 50 gold for a respec is arguably the closest thing you have come up with but still not nearly enough.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

Aldor vs Scryer

There were some pretty significant reward differences depending on which you picked.

Alliance vs Horde is obviously a MASSIVE thing you couldn’t change for years and was set within minutes of starting the game. In vanilla it also came with special powers in the form of a class. And it still does in the form of a race.

As a matter of fact, any time you go into a raid tier you get burrowed power (because all iLvL’s go up afterwards) and in all those cases you come into it expecting to play a particular build or spec with particular stat weights, and in all those cases you may find your build nerfed mid-tier or for another one to unexpectedly spring forward, at which point all your gear is wrong and you have to recollect all over again.

But nevermind all that I suppose. Covenants are truly what breaks the camel’s back.

[Seryu-turalyon]

@Amonet-stormrage

D&D is not a MMO tough, and im still waiting on my list whit MMORPGs that have “meaningfull choices” such as borrowed player power.

Dungeons and Dragons has a MMORPG Variant?.. its litterally a F2P MMORPG Called Dungeons and Dragons Online? Lmfao

[anon20528501]

I wonder how many people play a spec/class/talent or even race setup they actively dislike because it’s best DPS? It’s quite worrying.

I actively Hate Breath of Sindragosa on the Death Knight always have always will, my guild has never once forced me to play this build of frost as I simply don’t find it fun. The 5-15% DPS difference is not a factor to them. If i don’t enjoy something I shouldn’t be forced to play it.

Have we all become so focused on Simming and DPS meters that we have forgotten to enjoy the game, are your guilds so uninterested as you as a person that your nothing more than a DPS number to them?

You should be picking a Covenant because you like the theme, skill or the cosmetics. Not because “insert top level raiding guide” told you to and if you don’t you will be kicked from all future Raids/Mythics.

If that’s the case the problem is with your guild/friends, not the system.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

Progression raiding obviously also contains benching. When a class is totally underperforming someone else is chosen. A team is 20 people, you need more for a healthy weekly schedule. You are benching players anyway.

[Clairesse-twisting-nether]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Aldor vs Scryer

@Ishayoe-frostmane

But nevermind all that I suppose. Covenants are truly what breaks the camel’s back.

Comparing Aldor vs Scryers, who would give a couple different enchants for different stats and different items, which would get replaced a couple weeks/moths later by raid gear, in this first expansion that didn’t have nearly as much differing content, and the content that was in the game wasn’t nearly as complex as it is now…

…to covenants, of which there are 4 instead of 2, will give you two impactful extra abilities, each have three different soulbinds of which each has several ability altering “talents”, on top of all that are conduits, which will most likely interact differently with different builds and on top of everything, including your class and spec, you have many different legendaries which will have the potential to significantly influence the power of many different possible builds.

I’m not saying Aldor vs Scryers was an unimportant or unimpactful choice, or that TBC was in any way a bad expansion. I’m just saying that the game has evolved to be very different. The choice of a covenant will define all experience for the entire expansions, counting in all the busted builds that will inevitably come with so many variables. With this many different systems and paths, balance changes will come, a lot of them, all the time and it’s not going to end until the next expansion because scaling will naturaly keep changing everything. And people are not gonna like it.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Clairesse-twisting-nether

Comparing Aldor vs Scryers, who would give a couple different enchants for different stats and different items, which would get replaced a couple weeks/moths later by raid gear, in this first expansion that didn’t have nearly as much differing content, and the content that was in the game wasn’t nearly as complex as it is now…

…to covenants, of which there are 4 instead of 2, will give you two impactful extra abilities, each have three different soulbinds of which each has several ability altering “talents”, on top of all that are conduits, which will most likely interact differently with different builds and on top of everything, including your class and spec, you have many different legendaries which will have the potential to significantly influence the power of many different possible builds.

Did you miss the part where I said the abilities you get are too powerful?

[Clairesse-twisting-nether]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Did you miss the part where I said the abilities you get are too powerful

I didn’t, which is why I mentioned the insane number of combination coming with soulbinds, which is a system tied to covenants, with conduits and legendaries on top of it.

Unless you meant the power gain you get from the covenant overall.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

I wrote earlier, and I’m honestly not surprised you missed it because it’s a while ago now, that what I wanted to see was:

1. Abilities should be about as powerful as a racial, i.e. a situational utility spell
2. The soulbinds should have a few different talents that are in the “add 1% haste” etc. category. The conduits should be the same across the board.

So it’s watered down a little bit to the point where it won’t completely mess with everything, but it’s not gone. Just being able to constantly swap is not something I like because it really messes with the core storytelling, and watering it down to absolutely 0 difference is just plain boring from an RPG perspective.

Also, I don’t want any more super strong cooldowns in the game anyway. We don’t need them.

Anyway, I don’t think Blizzard is going to go back on this. They’re going to try to do the balancing. We’ll see how it goes.

[Barry-the-shatar]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Power being tied to a significant roleplaying choice is the centerpiece of the whole thing. If you play D&D, for instance, you have to make a ton of choices that come with different powers. You can even multiclass and pick different subspecs.

And these choices stick. Almost all of them forever - in fact it is at the discretion of the dungeon master only, and in rare circumstances - that you may change them.

And before you say “But that’s a game you RP in, in this one people will compete” I’ll pre-emptively say: Exactly. We’ve become so focused on competition we’ve forgotten about character customisation.

We have started seeking to make sure a suboptimal choice can never be made for fear that it will be suboptimal,

DnD and WoW are two very different games, if you make that comparison you might as well just suggest that they make talents a 1 time choice and you can never change them,

just because its a roleplaying choice doesnt mean that people who are not interested in it should be forced into it, they have said previously that a big cornerstone of shadowlands and a main philosophy is player agency, so why would they remove that from this system specifically even though they are giving it to basically everything else.

why should i feel stuck in a specific position and feel like in order to be useful i have to roll multiple of the same class, that if anything removes a lot of the roleplaying elements from the choice.

realistically the best option for them is to make it an option to choose which ever you want, because it will give people who want to make a roleplaying decision the option to do so while also letting the people who want to optimise and min max the option to do so as well, its the only way that it will work for everyone, because i dont really fancy spending another two years playing an expansion having to listen to everyone talk about how its a failure and a waste of time to play because of a stupid decision being made that should have been changed before the beta finished.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

This paragraph, really, reveals the whole truth: You don’t actually care at all what kind of issues or compromises I highlight as a consequence of your idea. You have no interest in considering the trade offs. Instead you fervently believe that your idea is the only right idea because there is no way that any other way of doing it has any advantages, even when told of them.

i think that you are missunderstanding some of the standpoints of people though, because we can understand that there are different advantages and disadvantages of going about it other ways, but we just believe that the disadvantages of doing it the others ways massively out weigh the benefits, its something i have tried to explain repeatedly myself but the people with opposing ideas havnt seemed to understand it.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

People will not all converge on the same if it is sufficiently hard to do so. If one is too strong and they all go for it, then all go for another when it gets buffed, then all have to go back later, they’ll all be in the same mess.

one of the main reasons i want the ability to swap is because there will be different situations where different choices are better, and also other situations where other options could be more fun to use.

the warlock ones being the example i have used because i have only really looked into them, necrolord looks like it could be good for ST. venthyr and nightfae could be very good for AoE and kyrian could work well for either, my main problem is that there is a system like torghast.

torghast has so many different gameplay options that i could literally see myself playing with all 4 of them at different times just to try things out and test things and have fun, but this is an options that is out right being removed from me, im not allowed to test things out and have fun because the dev team is deciding for some reason im not allowed to.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Blizzard will keep changing them so often that people will give up and this hyper-competitive mentality will start to shake off where it isn’t needed

i feel like this is a very naive mindset, people will not just give up on trying to be competitive, they will just created thread after thread on forums and endless youtube videos about how the system is stupid and blizz has screwed everything up, this is not something people will give up on.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I’d like for you to explain to me why it being an MMO means it has to not be an RPG. You might be able to teach the makers of WoW a thing or two.

why should the game being an RPG mean that im forced into making the wrong choice though? that doesnt make any sense, and if you are after roleplaying options why do DKs get given something that is an arcane dot, why are paladins given something that does shadow damage, it doesnt make any sense from an RP perspective either.

what about people that are playing classes like warlocks, mages, rogues and hunters, you have 3 different DPS specs that are all generally useful in different situations, for warlocks aff for multidotting, demo for ST and destro for cleave, why should i have to pick something that will be good for one and not for another, then making me feel like im unable to play a spec for my class, i should be able to swap between meaning that i have the option to change spec more easily.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Barry-the-shatar

DnD and WoW are two very different games, if you make that comparison you might as well just suggest that they make talents a 1 time choice and you can never change them,

They are, yes. But I should point out that this was originally the plan, just as it was the case in Diablo 2 which could take just as long to level up in, and furthermore that names like “Hellscream” are originally names of D&D characters, in that case a Half-Orc Barbarian. (Surprisingly, I’m sure )

The word MMORPG is short for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. It is the pursuit of making people play roles of their choosing using persistent characters in a persistent online world. It is inspired directly by D&D, in the case of WoW filtered through DaOC and Everquest, and the video games based upon it and attempts to bring this online by having each player play one character and interacting through that lens.

Compromises had to be made. If you want players to be online as one persistent character but in a changing world, then forcing newbie mistakes to stick forever is not good. The respec was designed to not make you have to reroll when class changes were made or mistakes in speccing was discovered, but to not allow it much more often than that.

You can say whatever you like about this. We can argue the exact fine details of how far this should go.

What we can never do is throw caution to the wind and say “We’ll it’s just a different game.” Well, technically it is, but in many ways it isn’t.

@Barry-the-shatar

they have said previously that a big cornerstone of shadowlands and a main philosophy is player agency, so why would they remove that from this system specifically even though they are giving it to basically everything else.

Is there specialisation if everyone are specialised in everything?

No, there is not.

Is there a choice when you can and should do it all?

No, there is not.

That is the reason. In order to have a choice, you must be forced to choose, and that choice has the consequence of restricting further choice in some way. It is a fact of definition and life. Frustrating or even contradicting as it might be, it is what it is.

@Barry-the-shatar

why should i feel stuck in a specific position and feel like in order to be useful i have to roll multiple of the same class, that if anything removes a lot of the roleplaying elements from the choice.

Does it, though? Perhaps you have to ask the question: What is your role, and what is your specilisation? Is it specialisation is you are specialised in everything at once?

@Barry-the-shatar

i think that you are missunderstanding some of the standpoints of people though, because we can understand that there are different advantages and disadvantages of going about it other ways, but we just believe that the disadvantages of doing it the others ways massively out weigh the benefits, its something i have tried to explain repeatedly myself but the people with opposing ideas havnt seemed to understand it.

I really don’t think you do understand it.

Some people here want it to be purely cosmetic.
Applying their kind of logic, WoW wouldn’t have classes. Warcraft 3 would’ve had identical factions and certainly no hero items. The MOBA wouldn’t have been born, etc.

Some others, including you, believe it should be switch-able constantly:
Applying that kind of logic, the covenant progression system in terms of zone reveal and building ceases to function. The storytelling device and sense of belonging is diminished to nothing.

Both of these groups strongly believe that sense of world and community should take a backseat to optimal gameplay with their buddies, to the point where they should almost disappear. I understand the sentiment of wanting to play optimally a lot - after all I do raid Mythic and I know how much people care, and how much I care. But if we butcher the world and community for the gameplay, we end up with something that may be balanced, but also boring.

@Barry-the-shatar

one of the main reasons i want the ability to swap is because there will be different situations where different choices are better, and also other situations where other options could be more fun to use.

I get that, and I believe I have implicitly responded to it by declaring it less important. Dungeons and raids should be designed with this in mind, of course. There must be moments where all covenants can shine, and that’s very hard to pull off, but not impossible.

@Barry-the-shatar

i feel like this is a very naive mindset, people will not just give up on trying to be competitive, they will just created thread after thread on forums and endless youtube videos about how the system is stupid and blizz has screwed everything up, this is not something people will give up on.

They will. And then they will wake up, teary-eyed, and realise they have two options: Adapt or quit. Or just keep crying I suppose. We’ll see if Blizzard caves. I imagine they will.

EDIT:
And it’s not just me

jb.

@Barry-the-shatar

why should the game being an RPG mean that im forced into making the wrong choice though?

You are not forced into making the wrong choice. You are forced into making a choice. So make it.

@Barry-the-shatar

what about people that are playing classes like warlocks, mages, rogues and hunters, you have 3 different DPS specs that are all generally useful in different situations, for warlocks aff for multidotting, demo for ST and destro for cleave, why should i have to pick something that will be good for one and not for another, then making me feel like im unable to play a spec for my class, i should be able to swap between meaning that i have the option to change spec more easily.

Most people have a main spec. And so do you, admit it. You care about the performance of that spec far more than the other two.

[Barry-the-shatar]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Is there a choice when you can and should do it all?

No, there is not.

yes there is, the choice is just more narrow, because you can make the choice to play an AoE spec for an AoE situation or a ST spec for a ST situation instead of being stuck to making the choice of playing a ST spec regardless of situation, if the choice to change abilities is removed there is less choice, simple as that, because you are not given the option to choose to change, you make a singular decision at the start of the expansion and are then stuck regardless of future balancing.

especially because there is a good chance people will take what ever is considered to be the best because there will never really be a choice anyway, and then because everyone is taking what is “OP” blizz will see it and then adjust things on heroic week like they have in the past meaning people within the first month of the expansion are screwed and have already been forced into the wrong choice.

the only way they can make it work if they still refuse to allow us to change abilities and refuse us the agency there is to balance it in beta and then never touch the balance again, just leave everything as it is at the start of the expansion and make zero changes, because otherwise people will be forced to then change covenant.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Does it, though? Perhaps you have to ask the question: What is your role, and what is your specilisation? Is it specialisation is you are specialised in everything at once?

i play a warlock, aff is generally good for multi dotting and AoE. demo is more for ST and destro is more for cleave, thats why i have picked this class, because it gives me that option, they should not be adding a system to the game that removed my ability to play these specs without having to roll another warlock because they are needlessly limiting my gameplay.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Some others, including you, believe it should be switch-able constantly:
Applying that kind of logic, the covenant progression system in terms of zone reveal and building ceases to function. The storytelling device and sense of belonging is diminished to nothing.

you clearly havnt read anything i have typed in this thread, i have said endlessly at this point that i think the abilities should be removed from the gating of the covenants, they should be a completely different system, the covenants as an aesthetic choice is a fantastic system, but the fact they preached their philosophy of player agency at blizzcon and then refuse to really give any player agency with this system is unacceptable.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I get that, and I believe I have implicitly responded to it by declaring it less important. Dungeons and raids should be designed with this in mind, of course. There must be moments where all covenants can shine, and that’s very hard to pull off , but not impossible.

if this is what they are going for then they will really need to redesign most of the abilities, they should be something you use for utility rather than player power, because if i was to take venthyr, i would go into a ST situation in raid and it would be a completely dead spell there would be absolutely no use for me pressing the button. which feels absolutely horrible, so i would feel forced to take something else, but then im losing the ability to play optimally, which is just not acceptable to me, they shouldnt be forcing people into feeling like they have to roll multiple characters of the same class, that is terrible game design.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

They will. And then they will wake up, teary-eyed, and realise they have two options: Adapt or quit. Or just keep crying I suppose. We’ll see if Blizzard caves. I imagine they will.

this is a similar situation to many previous expansions where people knew something would fail and blizz were overly stubborn about it, then they realise after 4 months that they were wrong and try to fix it in a .1 patch and still cant get it right, and then they wait untill the .2 patch of the expansion to make more changes which just so happen to coincide with the initial changes that everyone was asking for, why cant we just cut through all the bullcrap and just make the changes now so that we dont have to play a broken game for 10+ months.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

You are not forced into making the wrong choice. You are forced into making a choice. So make it.

that is going to have to be a agree to disagree there honestly, because if shouldnt feel forced into taking a purely ST choice into dungeons where AoE reigns supreme, and vice versa. me taking venthyr and then going into ST fights in raids is me being forced into a wrong choice,

at this rate they might as well just let us pick out talents at the start of the expansion and lock us into that, they might as well allow us the choice to play a single character at the start of the expansion and then delete all other characters we have and remove the ability for us to make more characters, because we might as well have some permanent choices.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Most people have a main spec. And so do you, admit it. You care about the performance of that spec far more than the other two.

not at all, there are times i play some specs more than others but that is dictated by balance more than anything, i literally decided to play warlock because i enjoy all 3 specs, why shouldnt i get the option to play the class that i have chosen to its full potential? why should i be locked into playing certain specs because i like to min max and playing something that feels weak feels horrible to play.

more so i feel like if im pushing mythic+ with friends they are doing their utmost to perform well so that we can clear it, then why should i be given the choice to play poorly and still get a spot in the team? why should i be the crutch that is holding everyone back. i should get the choice to play dungeons the way i want to, as well as playing raids the way i want to

[Shahraz-exodar (Shahraz)]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Does it, though? Perhaps you have to ask the question: What is your role, and what is your specilisation? Is it specialisation is you are specialised in everything at once?

But you are not specialised in everything at once. Never.

You can’t be a tank and a healer at the same time; you have to choose.
You can’t use all your talents at once; you have to choose.
You can’t use all your essences at once; you have to choose.

This kind of choices have always existed, almost no one has a problem with them, in fact, those are the kind of choices that feel like the bread an butter of character customization for a MMORPG: flexible & interesting choices that allow you to play around with all the moving parts.

Being able to adapt your character to any given situation does not mean that you get to be the best at everything or that you get to have an answer for everything, it just means that you can play around with the weaknesses and strengths of your class/spec considering that situation.

The whole covenant bundle is the oposite of that: you are basically being asked to commit to one spec and one game mode for the whole expansion, and for those of us who enjoy flexibility it just feels like unnecessary punishment.

So this is not as much about meaningful choices as it is about two confronted models for character customization.

In my opinion, rewarding unforced commitment is better than punishing flexibility.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

Meaningfull choice means just getting kicked out of 6 abilities that are available for your class and spec for the whole expansion. Not allowed to have fun with everything available. Make 3 alts of the same class to experience that fun.

[Clairesse-twisting-nether]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Is there specialisation if everyone are specialised in everything?

@Ishayoe-frostmane

That is the reason. In order to have a choice, you must be forced to choose, and that choice has the consequence of restricting further choice in some way. It is a fact of definition and life. Frustrating or even contradicting as it might be, it is what it is.

Yeah but the game is not in a state where this philosophy works… if you want to design systems with a certain philisophy, you need to make sure it matches the game first. WoW has gradually changed into what it is and it’s now designed around the ability to change your talents and specs. These drastic changes that force you to be either a specialist in one thing or be mediocre at everything doesn’t work. I’m not completely opposed to the idea of a bit more restricted respeccing, but the game has to change into a state where it’s not needed first.

I’m still waiting for the many people who were fighting for more class fantasy over spec fantasy, which it was in the beginning, and everyone was so excited when Blizzard announced that it’s what they intend to do, includnig me. I’d much rather be a warlock, not just destruction warlock. And I play the game that way by not limiting myself to one spec. But for some reason Blizzard has then decided to not make any significant class redesigns and all these people cheering are now either silent or have changed their mind to the" meaninfgul choices, specialists and consequences", which I’m still convinced is just an idea Blizzard planted in their head, for the most part.

Example, if you were locked into being just affliction warlock in BFA, you would be pretty good at raid bosses, but the moment you enter a dungeon, you barely get the chance to do any damage to trash mobs because by the time you roll out all your dots, everything’s dead and your dots didn’t even have time to ramp up. The only time you would excel in multi target scenarios would be if there was 3+ enemeis who live long enough for your dots to do any meaningful damage but are also too far away from each other for any AoE to work on them. Great, you’re a specialist, but most of the time you’re inferior to other classes or even your other specs. (I’m using this as an example, Shadowlands affliction looks amazing so far)

Too much of anything is good for nothing. You choose your class, then your spec, then your talents, then your covenant, then your soulbind, then your conduits, then your legendaries… and each choice is pushing you further into being very good at one specific thing. And for some reason, some people wish this was all locked and hard to chage and keep saying how that’s the one thing WoW needs in order to be an RPG again. I just don’t see how that’s any good for a game like WoW, where the general content is intentionally designed around being able to perform well in different types of encounters.

WoW is still an RPG after everything, and while covenants might push it more in that direction, I don’t think it’s a good decision right now. The game would need to gradually change into that vision, just not in a matter of one expansion. I just think it will create more problems than it will solve.

[Konata-ravencrest]

Unless you’re in a top #100 guild I doubt guilds would deny members any raid time on any difficulty.

I disagree with OP because too much choice is not always better, it means you have to gain renown with EVERY Covenant in order to level the Soulbinds and such up.

It just sets you up for endless grinds to get everything unlocked.

I like being able to decide which one I like based on aestethic or the most powerful choice out of the 4. I don’t want to visit 4+ places during raid times because Covenant A offers better abilities during one boss fight and Covenant B offers better abilities with another boss.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

What if i want to pick kyrian for 5 holy shocks and go for the new Divine purpose glimmer build.

But what if i also want to have fun in a more mobile option and pick night fae that opens up faster cooldown reduction (more wings) but more traditional beacon of virtue play.

Or maybe just having a great teleport available would be amazingly fun too!

How is the meaningfull choice ADDING fun? I think it narrows the playstyles that players can choose instead of enriching it. How great is it that you actively can choose how your spec is played? Why should it be a 2 year choice?

I am probably alone on this, but i don’t see the fun. It is just plain stupid. Let me rotate my fun playstyles freely.