you did not get what i said, you can go TK with zero melee dps just (warlocks+hunters) & 1mage maybe, you’ll simply faceroll alar/solarian & VR then at kael? u can still manage to down him with zero melee since melee in there is not a must! Offtank can remove mc’s & stack debuff. and a 1hunter can help if needed, the hunter will still be attacking as ranged hunter for more than 90% uptime so np.
there is no class balance raids in tbc, all DPS slots is about warlocks& Hunters for whole expansion.
ok u are an actual ape.
fury/arcane are the best classes for the parses which u think makes a class good. warlocks main issue here is the complete lack of offensive cooldowns. however in a properly paced raid a warlock will outperform all classes.
You were not “off tanking” when your damage taken is comparable to that of an enhance, despite you meleeing nightbane skeletons
Sure you can take zero melee, you can also take 4 rogues. We’ve already seen it 14 years ago. A lot of classes can perform in TBC, you’re crying about 2 specs having an overall advantage, yeah look at any retail patch and that is the same too, you still see plenty of class balance brought.
If you wanna be a hardcore splitraiding guild gearing for speedkills and the like, sure. If you wanna gear a balanced raid doing 1-2 nights a week you balance your comp so you can hand out gear effectively and cover all your bases. It’s ridiculous to look at Classic WoW only through the lense of whatever is the meta when you apply the maximum amount of time and effort.
I’m literally tanking Netherspite on most weeks and have never had a dps attempt on it. I take the hit from when the tank gets Gouge (hence deaths) on Moroes. I offtank various trash packs. I’m not in Karazhan trying to top the trash meters, I literally give zero attention to that.
On my best Attumen kill we did it 9 man waiting for our 10th to show up. Nobody cares at all about Karazhan runs, they are pugs, socials, alts. 25man is all that matters. And what is the point of your post, now you’re making excuses?
Everyone knows Warlocks are good, particularly in T5, but just like in 2007 you can do pretty damn fine with a raid sufficiently overfull with Rogues, whom are considered second class citizens now. And if you’re playing a Rogue, or a Warrior for example you can still top meters on a bunch of fights…
The game isn’t all about Warlocks and Hunters. But by all means go ahead and split-raid gear 15 of each if you want.
who said i’m crying over this?
i don’t even care!
i’m just commenting that warlocks & hunter are the highest dps classes in TBC, therefore anyone who would want to clear TK-SSC-BT-MH-SWP easier WILL stack those classes for 2 reasons, 1st to get secured first kill fast & 2nd to have over all easier raid, later on farm? they would bring other classes to balance the RNG gear which is not rly needed process cus TBC future content is well known and u can literally clear whole tbc content with zero melee.
Tanking netherspite has basically no impact on your dps. We have had boomkins, leather geared warriors etc do it.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/L1nXpKqwQg48JNRy#fight=12&type=deaths
0 deaths
You giving 0 attention to trash is exactly why you are bad at DPS, it will be visible in your post t4 and vanilla logs.
You can clear whole TBC content with damn near any comp, as long as you cover a few mandatory spots. What’s the point you’re making, this is also true for many other expansions. People have progressed Mythic bosses on retail with classes that are considered outright bad taking up multiple raid-spots.
First up I didn’t play vanilla. And again you’ve cherrypicked a log, july 7th and 21st I died to the tank getting gouged. My options here are only to play the gamble as an offtank and hope it works out, or to go full prot and do no dps at all, pointless. As a result I don’t use full cooldowns on that fight, it’s not worth it.
And like I said, nobody cares about trash dps in Karazhan. It’s a casual thing you do with socials and alts. You’re only bringing up Karazhan trash dps because I trashed your dps in 25mans.
so can you clear whole tbc content with zero range?! 
that’s my point.
p.S people in PTR atm already clearing the raids with zero melee xD
What is the point you’re making though? Was there ever an argument that you have to take melee? The argument is that it’s worth taking melee, that plenty of classes can perform competitively. To have a balanced raid comp and to put less gear to waste. The only guilds running low/no melee are split-raiding speedkill guilds, the most sweaty players around.
Picking your latest log which is what we were talking about is not cherrypicking. That log is from 21st btw
july 7 no blessing of sacrifice from pala and u don’t demo shout, probably dont equip a shield either based on the conclusion we drew earlier that you are an ape.
Karazhan and 25 mans are both things you do in splits. I didn’t bring up 25 mans as they are completely skewed in favour of warriors, hunters and mages due to cooldowns and do not represents raids well.
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I understand pretty well that you’ve had to craft a situation where you’re coming out on top. So congratulations you come out on top when cherry picking logs for trash dps while comparing to an offtank in Karazhan. All the while making excuses for 25man performance.
I can’t wait for T5 “Ahh yes but john I might have come 6th on the boss but did you see this seed of corruption spell I press a lot on trash?”
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you say it’s fine to have balanced raid comp! what do you think is balanced raid comp? can you define that?
can you bring all spec’s & progress through upcoming content? OFC Not, u’ll ignore many spec’s and you will always have More ranged classes if you want to clear content smother & easier! & that’s my whole argument with you, because you claim that TBC Is about balanced raid comp when it’s not. & you know that many casual guilds that run with only 2hunters 2warlocks will STUCK at the upcoming raids.
Balanced comp is one that covers mandatory ground and results in less void crystals from loot. I’ll give you an example from my own guild for a T5 comp. 3 hunters, 4 locks, 3 mages, 5 shamans, 3 paladins, 2 warriors, 2 priests, 2 druids, 1 rogue. 3 tanks, 5 healer, 8 physical (5 melee), 9 casters.
That’s a fairly balanced raid, it will kill everything. But back in 2007 people were killing stuff with much less balanced raids, including those that ran 4-5 rogues and at a world first race level at that. People are sweating hard about taking 9 warlocks, it’s just completely unnecessary.
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is that’s why void crystals are sold for 8g in AH xD?
bots are not farming raids xD & we haven’t got into the phase where grull/mag will drop 4x items per boss yet
Rogues with glaives was needed for swp, but for tk/ssc/bt/mh first kills most top guilds run with almost no melee! i had a rogue in 2007 & i know how it went, http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=24_2007377.png
those who had alot of melee/rogues progressed super slow in ssc/tk/bt, on the other side those who stacked range classes cleared faster.
your raid comp have 3hunters 4warlocks, i’m sure many guilds will run with more hunters/warlocks for certain fights, at least for the first boss’s kills(raid clear)
Edit: But it might not matter atm, since we already on a patch where melee T4 gear are buffed & fights are very well known & raids Looks easier
I will just use a 2007 example then from my own guild, that we killed vashj with. 2 Hunters, 2 Warlocks, 2 Fury Warriors (no arms), 2 Ferals (tank + dps), 2 Shadow Priests, 2 Enh Shamans, 2 Ele shamans, 2 mages, 1 boomkin, 1 Ret Paladin.
Oh my god how can you even kill bosses amiright? No, TBC content is a joke, people are sweating over optimisation now while people killed these bosses with Pentium 4 PC’s running 20 fps in 2007 and whatever raid comp they could throw together.
What the hell does this have to do with what I said. The point I was making is having a balanced raid means LESS loot gets de’d, which is a good thing, because they are going to players, instead of having everyone fighting over the same loot while other loot goes unused.
The only way you get around that is split-raiding.
KT World first had 3 Rogues
Vashj World first had 3 Rogues
Archimonde World first had 3 Rogues
Illidan World first had 4 Rogues
I guess you didn’t know as well as you thought you knew.
i don’t disagree with this, but the balanced comps was not able to manage fast progression kills than comps that brought many warlocks/huntersBut, But hey not everyone had poor fps, processor in old era of games was not the big deal, vga was.
the 8g void crystal in AH means that currently many raid comps are never balanced, dunno if they are all meta slaves or just pugs that bring almost zero melee as what i see in many streamer pugs.
i knew you would check on World first kills xD But hey you still did not understand what i said, because even for those kills you mentioned! there was a range stacking!
Nihilum had 4rogues while sk gaming had 3 & method had 2, The Chinese guild that smashed through BT once black temple was released in asia? had zero xD u know that old content was released months late after eu/na? otherwise u would see world first goes to asians who run with zero melee
the whole point is…you can run tbc content with zero melee now & clear it, but you can’t run it with zero range! but as i said before TBC was easy Yet TBC-C is easyer so right now it doesn’t matter much what you bring. specially when melee gear is buffed in this current phase, but those guilds who lacks warlocks/hunters will struggle in future content.
I didn’t have to check the world firsts because I had this same discussion months before TBC Classic came out. People told me how bad Warriors and Rogues were gonna be and how low their dps was gonna be, so I pointed out the world firsts and linked my WWS logs from that era, which were impressive for the time, but not nearly as much dps as people are doing today.
I did a 4400 dps single target log on Shade of Akama in 2008 (current talents) and I had the 23rd highest parse, all classes. When Shade of Akama comes around on TBCC that will be mediocre. The 2000 dps we did on Teron with T5/T6 mix gear will be mediocre.
Nowadays people are doing WAY more dps with every spec. I did 1800 dps on Solarian on the PTR, almost pure ST and we killed it on the first try. I was topping meters in 2008 with 1500 in Hyjal on low armor bosses with T5 gear. 1500 in Hyjal now will be laughable… You gotta understand how easy the game is.
Kael Thas will be hard for some in week 1 due to lack of T5 gear, maybe, but the “balanced” comp I mentioned above will crush it with good play, in current gear.
Here you go again, nobody is forcing you to invite Rogues or melee. But they were everywhere in raids in 2007/2008, Rogues were especially common. One of my guilds had a hard time keeping a steady Rogue on roster, but all the rest of them ran 3 in every raid and several of them 2-3 DPS Warriors.
Literally whatever was online and whoever was a good player. In Sunwell I was one of 3 DPS Warriors, alongside 3 Rogues, 2Enhance and a Ret. Not always in the same raid together, but 6-7 melee was not uncommon.
well i see your point but i will remind you that
casters are double the melee
7out of the 9 are (warlock/hunters)
you know in 40raid man you probably was bringing 1~2hunters 1~2warlocks & Now in 25man raid you bring much more hunters/warlocks! at the cost of melee!
if you’ll talk about DPS at certain fights isn’t that based on skills/experience & gear? ofc you as a warrior can out dmg tons of noob warlocks or non-geared warlocks! that doesn’t change the fact that warlocks are still better dps class than your class, few weeks ago i went kara on my arcane mage with almost 2k spell power & 2x warlocks was crying on voice that i’m stealing dps from them in AOE fights at first few rooms because i arcane explosion reached 36k dps and there seed doesn’t manage to do any damage when mobs instant dies by me. yet that doesn’t change the fact that warlocks are still better aoe class than me.
but anyway I think that whoever made topic? posted it about the unbalanced class called warlock being highest DPS & said “is this what good game design looks like?” the answer is pretty simple OFC it’s not good game design TBC is trash with full of abuses like every other expansion blizzard released. & peace out
Of course yes but I didn’t play Vanilla, not in 2005 nor on Classic, at least not as a raider (I did one AQ20 run on a friends Shadow Priest in 2006 just before TBC came out), and I levelled and PvP’d on Classic (both Alliance/Horde) casually. Started WoW in 2007 with TBC.
I came to TBC to raid because this is my game. Much like retail you take melee and they are great, but overall you’re more ranged heavy which is fine. That’s literally been the case in almost every tier, though in the current retail tier it’s 50/50 ranged/melee. You want to take melee because they do perform well, they do bring things to the raid and because you don’t want your loot to go to waste.
Same goes for Warglaives, you want people to be able to loot them and if you are into speed-running some guilds are looking at running physical heavy setups in T6 which will involve Fury Warriors for the cleave on trash. Just to point out I don’t care about speedrunning personally but a few players from the top speedrunning guilds have thrown around some ideas including Fury Warrior stacking similar to vanilla…
This game is a lot more interesting than stacking 15 Warlocks, which in Sunwell is a viable option for some bosses (Muru in particular). But nobody forces you to run 15 locks, it’s unnecessary.
you really missed alot of fun not playing classic as a warrior 
warriors was S-class tier in both pvp & pve!
my guild in classic stacked warriors even though we don’t do speed runs, was just to make fights a lot easier if raid over all dps is high.
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I play firemage and I have beaten lots of warlocks on encounters. Its all about group composition and gear on the individual.
A fire mage with full bis can easily shine amongst the top dps against locks/hunters.