Single Minded Fury vs. Might of the Frozen Wastes

The problem is that we’re not just talking about a single buff to SMF and we’re done, next tier will have better weapons, the gap between sheer stats on 1-handers and 2-handers will widen yet again (The whole root cause of this mess), and there would be need for another buff to SMF.

The transmog fix isn’t an elegant solution, but it’s the only fix that won’t require continuous monitoring and readjusting as the tiers progress.

You’re basically defending just lazy and bad design.

I have never seen game designers saying outright « hey this option is here just for show, it’s useless so take the other one because we can’t be bothered tweaking numbers for 1h to be viable ».

Meanwhile it’s done in other games with much less budget than WoW. How is this even a thing in the first place ?

If they’re that lazy yet again, just add the ability to mog 1handers while having TG as passive (SMF should be core passive with the spec too, wasting Talent points to get it just undermines the whole thing).

So much for the « play your way » as advertised. Another reason why TES games will always be more fun and superior gameplay wise since you can indeed play however you want and everything will be viable. When you can play what you want without dumb restrictions due to bad design, it just makes the game better.

I feel like I am repeating myself a lot. Yet:

  • The point is that it is not to be close to equal, for the reasons mentioned above.
  • Everyone is willing to accept it to be a mogable option. This is what you should clamor for.
  • SMF is viable, it is just not optimal, as stated above.
  • It will not become optimal, because of reason stated above.

Hopefully repeating what you glossed over will help change your mind, perhaps see things from my side of the camp. The problem is and will always boil back to the four weapon problem. I don’t want that problem and neither do you.

Just play and have fun with SMF, noone but yourself is stopping that from happening. That is its intended design, to have fun with it. Let us not wingclip Fury top-end progression for the sake of a non-issue.

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Sorry for the long rant.

See the problem starts with your very first point.

If it’s balanced with correctly tweaked numbers you would never have to hunt for 4 weapons. There are games where a character can use both dual wield and 2h, they still manage to give both pros and cons and balance it all out.

Why is it so hard to do here ?

It’s genuinely stunning to read game designers saying « hey, this is the option nobody will take but we made it only to check a box and give the illusion of choice ». As if the game and community weren’t metaslaves enough.

Nobody wants to play a dumbed down spec, especially on WoW where you get booted if you don’t have X or Y, even in low keys or easier difficulties.
Even from a casual perspective, it’s insulting and they seem to think casual are low IQs. Not a good look on my book.

The fact they also greenlit this after some reading is also concerning and shows they haven’t really changed their vision of the game « play my way ».
All it takes is literally some tweaked numbers (increasing damage a bit and giving double stats to be on par), then placing SMF in the core talents of the specs.

Or give Titan Grip a passive to allow players to mog 1h on 2h, but they won’t even bother with that simple switch.

That’s pretty much it but they’re going tunnel vision with 2handers. Literally same issue with frost DKs but reversed (unless they fixed it but it’d give more ammo as to why they won’t do it with Warriors).

The problem is that twohander got more stats, so they interact with WoW abilties differently than abilities in other games. You could argue they should remove weapons as modifiers to damage in the game - so to flatline abilities to just do a set amount of damage and autoattacks to do equal normalised DPS. Sounds like a lot of work just to fix one spec, of one class in a game at the scale of WoW.

The reason balancing it is so hard is because of how damage works and is calculated.

  • If twohanders hit equally as hard as onehanders, then twohander would be better because they grant more stamina as a sidebonus.
  • If They both bring equal stats, then weaponspeed would be the imbalance. You would want Twohander for AoE (bigger hits) and SMF for ST for faster and more consistent rage regen.
  • Now, what if at different breakpoints of haste you want different weaponspeeds? This will happen. Then you will be swapping out of let us say SMF to TF to get those gains, so you will again need 4 weapons.

This is only a few of the untold many reasons why getting the balance right is so hard. Don’t expect the devs to snap their fingers and it is perfectly balanced. Between PvE, PvP, M+ to raids… there are too many variables.

I am not sure what you mean by dumbed down spec. Both SMF and TF plays exactly the same. So both are the dumbed down specs? I have personally brought SMF into 20 keys and into PuG raids, no one kicked me and at worst a fellow warrior gave me the thumbs up in whispers. If you just do it, you wont find it to be as scary to just go SMF.

Again, we all agree, SMF should be a mog option for TG. Now to the “play my way”, currently with the coming tier you will have more build options than now - and already now you got 4 strong options to chose between. That negating all the minor personal touches you can do between CC and utility/selfsustain. WoW has never been more liberal in how you efficently play the game. Next tier will open even more doors. It is in a really good spot for Fury Warrior talent trees.

Now the DK issue is basically the same. Stats work funilly. Though in their case, onehanders must only be balanced Vs 1 twohander. In Fury’s case, it is two twohanders. In points value think 1hander as 1500 each, twohander as 3000. So, two onehanders should equal up to a twohander.

  • Fury needs to overdo and gain 9000 points of value to be minmaxed.
  • A retribution needs 3000 points
  • A UDK needs 3000
  • A rogue needs 3000
  • A FDK arugably needs 6000

Fury is a special case. Balancing it is far from easy and honestly it is not worth the headache when the difference is just big enough to make TG the correct choice (Making Fury warrior still a 6000 point spec, btw), yet small enough that you can play SMF if you want to and not really be at visible loss.

Hope this helps you understand my prior arguments.

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So to sum things up:

What everybody can agree to is

  1. give warriors transmog options for 1h → 2h and 2h → 1h
  2. smf needs to be out of the talent tree
  3. nobody wants to farm 4 weapons

Its actually easy to achieve (imo):

  1. just do it…
  2. make SMF baseline like TG and MotfW, remove frenzied flurry, add 2 new talents
  3. add to TG: two handers have weapon speed of 1h; make SMF have double stats and 2h weapon dmg on one handers. Tune rage generation accordingly

And just like that: perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
A little boring maybe. So add something ‘interesting’ like the 5% movement speed for smf and w/e for tg. Increase range of attacks? Something for heroic leap?

But knowing blizzard I doubt they will be clever enough to put some recources into this issue now and will instead keep tuning smf every other year and forget about the issue…
An issue they created in 4.0 and should have fixed for all eternity in 4.1

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Oh! I know what is Fury Warrior future. As we know Barbarian from Diablo 2 is prototype of Fury Warrior. So, in Diablo 4 Barbarian use 4 weapons! That is Fury Warrior future.

Damn I hope not !

Still no buff/fix, can’t say I’m surprised

I would be surprised if we saw any buffs at all. Fury warrior is already in a good spot to be, and we are getting a way more powerful setbonus - so our powerlevel will increase.

As the tier also works with SMF, it too will keep up - and for annhi fans you too will see an increase on your CSHB DPS.

Ofcourse there isnt?

They were never gonna seriously put much effort into making this balanced. 1handed return were just to bait resubs, they were never gonna seriously fine tune the process.

Frost DK likely was only done the way it was is because BoS dont work in m+ and 2handed oblit builds do. So blizz has a path to making it have use without replacing dual wield.

SmF warrior has no design flaw to patch up, like MOTFW does. So its just unoptimal in every direction imaginable.

And given blizzards design to make it as hard as possible to fail, theyve done this so u cant without intention play as sub optimal as considering 1x1handwd.

Its a huge dps loss :rofl: and blizzard wont ever try balance it, they deleted it for a reason really.

There are far too many speccs in the gsme to start balancing multiple speccs to be competitive. Theyd soon be balancing 100 builds a season simultaniously and we would wonder why content and and everything else would dissapear because of the sheer budget size required to get classes goong.

Disclaimer: this isnt to say i think blizzard should or shouldnt balance it. I just never beleive this returned with any intention beyond “RP purposes”.

Good thing I unsubbed indeed

Balancing this would be simple as we already talked in the thread but they’re not even bothered to even go with the most easylazy solution with a transmog option.

Balancing it would never be easy.

Its easy to say on paper. But no one rly considers the multiplicative measures. Nor the confines of coding.

You cant have every weapon released and going to be released balanced for 1 specc seperately.

Giving transmog is possible, they managed this with 2handed DKs with their artifact weapons as a example of that.

Not to mention. Ud have to reanimate every races skeleton to swing that fast with 2handed animations without animationally becoming a mess.

Its not a simple fix. Sometimes. The fantasy has to come first, and im afraid TG is apart of the fury warriors fantasy.

You call it a easy / lazy solution to use transmog. But its rly not, its not a one time do up and fix because the list will build if they do it for you.

If they did this. Enhancement shamans would want 2handed.

Survival hunters will want dual wield.

If blizzard rebalanced the game and added to the pool everytime someone demands a alternative way to play their specc.

Blizzard would litterally drive itself bust due to the quantity of resources out into balancing.

Its cool that classes have aesthetical showings of uniqueness to one another and the game would be alot more bland if they removed thst factor. And well sure if u wanna unsub over that go for it, but your gonna find u rly dont have alot of games to go to if ur going to quit because of it.

Its pretty normal, for games of rpg nature to have these things which lock classes into certain things to express class fantasy.

If anything they should do , they should completely remove 1h option from from fury.
Its underperforming and feels lame to wield. Even it had similar performance it would just confuse people even more. Also having 2h making fury easier to swap specs with arms.
Also fury is basically berserker fantasy wise. Berserkers use big heavy weapons. Titans Grip perfectly fits the spec fantasy unlike smf.

Funny how Blizz saw that people played 2H more as Frost DKs so they just made it baseline in 10.0.7 but they apparently can’t do the same for SMF.

That was different from the issue here, for DKs they were comparing a single 2-hander with two 1-handers, and the stat budgets are balanced for a 2-hander to be roughly equivalent to two 1-handers, but for Fury-spec we’re talking about two 1-handers vs two 2-handers, which is a quite different comparison.

Personally I’ve always hated Titans grip / 2x2h Fury. I thought it was stupid when it was introduced and I don’t like it now.

The whole reason I like 1h Fury is for the attack speed, not 2 clunky massive weapons.

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