SL Shadow priest analysis (M+ only)

I. Void Eruption and time to start to do damage.
I believe it’s the only major CD with… cast time. If you think it’s a good idea, well, maybe if it deals good amount of damage worth 1+ sec cast time.
M+ is a mode of a pretty high game pace. It feels frustrating to see pack melting by other DDs while you’re preparing your spriest to start dealing damage.
Imagine that to get the most of our current damage kit we need: apply some Vampiric Touches (probably 3-5 gcds), trink+pi + covenant spell, pet, mind blast (in order to not waste a stack), sw:d <-> void eruption, more than 8 targets? SN, SN spam - here is your highest damage threshold.
Let’s count it considering that we apply even less VTs - just 2 = 2 gcds, trink+pi+cov spell = 1gcd, pet = 1 gcd, mb = 1 gcd, v.eruption = 1 gcd, swd = 1 gcd, 1st SN = 1 gcd. So before to start doing your real damage you have to spend like 8 gcds for preparation.
Add 2 more gcd if there are less than 8 targets then you have to play around your legendary - shadow flame prism which means you have to hard cast MBs - 2 MBs after VEruption.
This is possible in 2 situations:

  1. The key lvl is quite high (25+ fortified).
  2. Tank is setting up pulls very, very slowly.
    In other words, if we play in 15-20 keys (and the vast majority of players does) we literaly have no chance to play it properly. We have to give up on trying to do it right which means to forget about some spells almost totally.
    So, tell me please what was the idea behind making VEruption to have a cast time?

There are 2 ways of solving this problem:

  1. Make VEruption damage a lot higher. Like, a lot.
  2. Make it instant.

II. Vampiric Touch.
I already mentioned the problem of Vampiric Touch but I can repeat it. Players have no chance to get the most out of this spell. It was some kind of a joke when Devs buffed it.
It deals pretty good amount of damage and it’s really bad situation when you have to give up it because if you don’t… you gonna lose even more dps (I will explain in covenatn section). Also, imo VT’s design is very outdated.

What can be done:

  1. Delete VT.
  2. Make some more passive source of applying it (e.g unholy nova has a chance to apply VT on every target/5 target max it hits).
  3. Make it worth of gcd (VT has a chance to provide you with some nice buffs like VT ticks have a chance to grant your mind sear +250% damage like it was in BfA via azerite traits).

III. Abilities confrontation.

As you already know we struggle to give up on some source of our damage to do at least something meaningful. Before covenant legendaries we had to play shadowflame prism.
This legendary even got some nerfs. Ok. But…
I believe this is the only legendary (BiS one) that makes you to chose between 2 things when you obviously want to do both at the same time.
You can say but sfp deals a lot of damage. Well, maybe. But it will cost you - SN damage.
Obviously SFP has terrible design. It should have some other source of triggerting it than something you have spend gcds on.


IV. Covenant.
Even when Spriest played as Night Faes, Necrolords were very close to them. Before that and now Necrolords are again our best covenant. But you have to understand 1 thing that to be the best doesn’t mean to be good, it means that others are just worse. That’s why I don’t think that I have to talk about others covenants and why they are worse than necrolords.
Even though necrolords are pretty easy to play with as you have pretty simple covenant spell, I don’t think it should be taken as a reason to make Unholy Nova to be that bad.
Unholy Nova is a spell that deals pretty low damage and provides you with no utility at all. Like imaging NF ability for mages, it deals if not more but some similar amount of damage through out the whole dungeon but it also gives very strong cdr.
So, in my opinion Unholy Nova should have something more than just “it deals damage and it heals (lol not)”.
It’s very frustrating to have such undertuned spell to be also your only option. Look at how much damage other class bis cov spell deals. Or if it doesn’t do much damage, what additional utilities it gives?.

  1. Unholy Nova could have a chance to apply some VTs on targets (as I already said).
  2. It could be a part of our mastery as the 4th source of overall damage buff.
  3. It could trigger Shadowy Apparition like if target have VT but only with its ticks (without having to trigger it manually through MBs, DP or VB).
  4. 100500 more ideas could be considered…

Another thing about covenant is Bonesmith soulbound. Even though Marileth is a solid choice, Bonesmith is the best option for 15-20 keys. The main thing about this soulbound is Carver’s Eye trait. It gives you huge amount of mastery if you deal some damage to targets above 90% hp. Duration is quite low though. Since I’m talking about 15-20 keys, the thing about refreshing its duration is out of discussion.
So, this is another reason we can’t play spriest correctly. In order to deal the best possible damage you have to pair Carver’s Eye stacks with crit buff from Ancient Madness talent. As you could already guess our correct opener leads you to a situation where you lose all carver’s eye stacks before Veruption.
It’s not like a problem of the trait but as I promised I gave you some more information why trying to play it right in 15-20 keys could result in a dps loss.
But if you want to address some solutions this way then:

  1. Carver’s Eye should be something like “dealing damage to targets above 75-80% hp…”.
  2. Duration could be longer - like 7 sec.

V. AoE.
It’s a sort of summing up our AoE kit. In general we have very weak baseline aoe - mind sear.
All our other sources of aoe come from talents. Which means we can’t buff our aoe through talents we just get it from there.
There is not much to be discussed as the only way to solve this problem is to give us some meaningful baseline aoe spell(s).

  1. Shadow crash can be one of our baseline aoe kit.
  2. SN can be out of gcd.
  3. Considering Shadowy Apparitions to be some sort of aoe/cleave spell it must get some nice damage buff.

Summing up.
Spriest must get some love from Devs as… in SL we’re being constantly nerfed without even being somewhere close to OP/meta spec. All those OP/meta specs even after nerfs are still better than spriest.
Also it must be understood by Devs that Spriest problems come not just from some low damage formulas but mostly from terrible QoL design of spec and our best covenant itself.
I’m not sure I keep playing Spriest if Blizzard keep things for the spec as they do for now or not sure if I even keep playing WoW in the next expansion but I really hope that Spriests can be if not the only but one of the most desirable specs in the game in M+.

Cheers.

PS. Sorry if it’s a bit messy. Did it without any drafts first (actually I had some but I didn’t use it lol) and without any editing to enhance readability.

PPS. One more sorry as I totally forgot one more thing about this spec.

Stats and scaling.
I started to play spriest when it became a haste addict spec. I liked it very much as I like fast casting gameplay.
Correct me if I’m wrong but this was one of Blizzard explanation why Spriest needed rework. They thought that at some point Spriest appeared to become very hard to play spec due to high haste values and some players can’t keep up with it because of “ping”.
Even though it might be true, especially in Legion when we have a very strict gameplay called “55/5” I believe.
In BfA things became more easier I think if talking just about high haste gameplay.
Anyway, haste gives us a lot. Like really a lot. You can check it in Plaguefall if you manage to bring red slime to the 1st boss and start the fight staying within red pool + having buff from red slime. I know only one spec which benefits from haste in a same way - demo warlocks.
And because of that haste thing we were one of the best scaling spec in the game. Which means we start slowly, we can be underpowered within first two tiers but then with all stats (and haste especially) we began to show some good results (in raids ofc).
Today we have nice mastery (which is not useless anymore), also for 15-20 keys crit is also is able to provide us with nice dps numbers but still haste is our bread and butter.
And PI is not enough.
It leads us to a problem of stats diminishing system being introduced in SL.
And to do something about it could be one of the ways to make our QoL and overall performance better.

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If this is your hope, give in on it. I’m not saying it to annoy or discourage but its simply not how Blizzard works.

You can see the last 2 waves of balance changes. Mages / rogues / hunters were addressed. To a lesser extent ww etc.
Balance druids / ferals / SP who need love (as well as mw and disc) were left untouched.

Theres tons of great feedback around and Blizz will ignore all of it.

There was an April fools patch note years ago that said “Fixed an issue that caused Shadow Priests to cause damage”. It was completely tongue in cheek and funny, but as the years go by it seems like its their design philosophy.

You can fall into 2 main groups in this game. One that follows whats strong, which is pragmatic, low stress and practical - or those that love a class and then ask for it to be buffed - unless you are the big 3, thats not gonna happen.

Finaly some sp topic thats readable. Clearly from someone that plays shadow. Thumps up budd…
Idk about that target and gcd count on the start, i think its more complicated that that(sadly) while even if you master that …youre still sub-optimal in terms of dps compared to the metas atm…like ww surv demo destro etc. Other than that great summary.

I would like void eruption to be buffed, separrated from voidform cd and used as our aoe insanity spender…while talents could add to this that ve apply dots. As was said in different topic on this subforum.

While shadow was never been even close to the meta or beign strong in m+ since its addition to the game, most fun ive ever had in dungeons was end of bfa with chorus stacks azerite beam and tsunamis of ghosts…i wish this playstyle was brought back in some form…but thats just my wish…for shadowlands i feel like unnerfing 4pc and heavy buffs to Searing nightmare would bandaid this spec before dragonflight…SN is an terrible ability to use…but youre forced to use it everywhere anyway so why not buff it to the moon to make us more viable…

No, that ability have a bad design as well, I could be persuaded to like it if it tracked a target rather than target circle.

With the direction dot’s are taking I would love to see this for both dot’s

And I gotta say I’m a firm believer that separating eruption, VF and VB from each other, making eruption our aoe spender and SN becomes passive and renamed to erupting nightmare applying both dot’s, VF being instant cast short cd and VB either getting deleted or replacing DP as our st spender, could save the spec rotation and feels wise. We will still need to have some utility added to make us more desirable tho

If you do a low key as shadow you’ll do 0 dmg because everything dies b4 you do dmg cuz aoe melee specs are broken easy and if you do high keys your toolkit is niche.

Don’t play a SP if you don’t like having a complicated life.

I feel like cast time on void eruption is the least of my problems :joy:

What if ALL our dots gave apparitions? That could literally be the mastery. Think about it.
More dots, more spooky ghosts. Be a skinny little clothie channelling a torrent of darkness. Someone’s gotta sex up the particle effects and make them match.

I can keep dreaming up good ideas, just like over half the people on this forum.

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Funny thing is that in high keys it’s not like things change dramatically. If for example, fire/frost mage is better in low keys, they would be better in high keys. Same about current destro lock (even after nerf). The only way to out-dps some meta spec is to make those specs to play their cds around some one target pulls, for example, to make monks to save their cds for like tormentor (s2 affix).
Also, it’s not like we gain something big playing in high keys and became to be desired or at least welcome in different parties. The statistics from rio shows it clearly as we have only 1 priest with 28 key done in time and it’s one 1 key which is pf.
Well, I know that with 99.999999…9% chance this post will result into nothing even though Blizzard ofc will tell us that they read all feedback and take it into account but at least I gave it a shot.

That is so true, they really should consolidate all the forums into one, because I really don’t wanna get a US sub to be heard

They do if you run the high key with same.ppl like the low key. If you carry the damage you do high…if packs are half dead beore first empowered tick of sn then youre just a decoration in the group.

Problem is that you will run high key with different ppl on meta spec and decent player behind the wheel and youre back at square one like in low keys. With things living longer you will do significantly more damage but only compared to yourself.

Only week where i dont feel like im getting carried is bursting, or in pf or top for cov.

Also in coordinated high keys priest are getting into groups to pump PI to hunters or lock. Thats another BS this expansion invented.

can you please give me some sort of advice, i guess you are into spriest so , i am planing to main spriest whole dragonflight. i decided to check how spriest feels now and saw this painful rotation. does spriest always had this type of rotation (in legion and bfa). i played it a bit in the end of bfa and i felt like it was much easier class than it is now. is it true? or spriest is that hard for atleast last two expansions, can it become more user friendly in dragonflight your opinion

Shadow was way harder in bfa and legion. Shadowlands version is just a cd bot… like evry other class…just line your cds and burst and after tickle.

If you are talking about m+, aoe is complicated in sl and bad…but it was always bad legion bfa etc…Only time we had some damage was ish in s2 sl before they uncaped everything and in bfa last season decked in corruption and with azerite beam.

Legion and bfa was way different and imho more fun…nobody knows whats going to be in dragonflight yet…so its just guessing …but i wouldnt bet on another rewamp. It will most likely be the same as now…its strong and fun in pvp …boring in raid and straight up dog :poop: in m+…which isnt anything new.

Take from it whatever you wannt…but if you dislike rotation now …i would put my time and effort into a different class.

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a thought, I read lately that blizzard needs to make a good dragonflight game because it has sunken the last few years… if Blizzard doesn’t listen to peoples complains about their favorite characters, will sunk even more. Their interest is to listen and to make improvements, or else the people will not play it. I don’t have the time to play all characters, I invested on SP and I see that my arena wins are low. Nobody wants me as a arena buddy. I will invest on a hunter, but what if I don’t have the time in the future, how many do you think can play wow non stop? I think their problem is not necessarily the expansions, their problem is that they don’t make the classes equal so all players have equal chances of winning. To make PVP more pleasurable for the people like me, who cannot invest so much time like other players. Nobody likes to die in 2 secs.
Me and my arena buddy, one day we died in 2 secs by 2 hunters, we were single shot. Yeah, how much fun! I bet many feel the same like me.

We all know what you’re saying makes sense.

Then look at the latest tuning passes that affected M+ badly, Blizzard didn’t address the worst couple of dps specs or the worst 2 healers. No one wants lots of classes in M+ but did Blizz fix it when it mattered? Nope.

Well, i would say that in Legion it was harder to play. In BfA it became much easier but still there were some problems which didn’t lay somewhere in just spell damage formulas. Some problems we inherited in SL.
Anyway, in terms of just our abilities kit and our new designg whatsoever, basically we have to keep in mind that our rotation priority is built on targets count. If we put aside everything I said in the main post our dps rotation is very simple and almost not punishing if you fail 1-2 things (like imagine if fire mages screw their rotation or if monks fixate their copies right after summoning them and start to spam their crane without 5 stacks of the talent). So, the only thing you need to remember is like: I can do 2 Searing Nightmare cast during 1 mind sear channel. Not that hard, yeah?
So, basically our current state is not like “easier or harder” it’s just frustrating that we have to play it wrong (compare to what every guide teaches you) in order to have dps rather than play it right and cut it like by ~30%. Ofc, in high keys you do it correctly just because you have time for it (depends on your DDs comp and how they play too).
Anyway, it’s not like spriest doesn’t have dps. Even with all those nerfs Blizzard feeds us throughout SL. It’s just the matter of QoL.
Will they do something in dragonflight? Well, they probably will. At least I want to see what priest talent tree will look like and maybe because of their “new” approach we can build our spec differently for low keys and for hight keys and be competetive. Unlil Devs brings some new nerfs to keep us somewhere we’re atm (I woulnd’t say so if they didn’t nerf our necro legendary and 4-p bonus by 40% both having such specs like current destro warlocks, surv hunters and ww monks in the game).

To sum up, sometimes I really enjoy to play spriest. When I can out-dps s2 frost mage or hunters it feels really good but when you can’t… well. Not like I’m raging but I have lvl’d up mage, warlock and hunter as well lol. So, my advice is just if you like the way it’s played (or how it will be played in DF) then just go for it but keep some other classes/specs at least lvl’d up.

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remove void form add back cascade-

No that will just bring us further away from the meta, as it stands currently. Separating it’s 3 components, into their own spells will help us get closer to the meta

As for cascade I’ve been a huge advocate for it, but as of late I’ve changed gears towards just separating VF into it’s 3 components, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Void Eruption swapped with cascade. But it should be one or the other, not both, unless cascade is returned as a talent aoe/st generator spell, that has a lingering effect rather than a set amount of jumps and splits. So like cast it on target then it splits into 2 bolts that keeps jumping around all targets for 10 secs, generating 3 insanity per hit. And if used in single target the 2 bolts just keep hitting the same target, unlike what it used to. Slap a 15-20 sec cd on that, and we will have a quick generator once or twice per fight, that will allow us to spam Void Eruption which would be our aoe spender or DP in case of ST use

guysss the talent tree preview is out.

Another broken record.
We could be saying fix void form.

And this tree solves not a single current problem if not makes it even worse lol

OMFG we can’t even make a functional build for either ST or AOE. And the fact that our CC’s and defensive is locked behind MS is pure BS for PvP. And the fact that they lock everything behind a VT passive sucks for AOE. For a pure AOE build I would actually love to avoid picking VT at all, as long as we don’t have a mass apply for it

I like the look of some of the new things tho, but the bottom 2 rows are useless because we’re gonna spend all of our points making ourselves work

But they did nail the class tree tho

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