All of a sudden it was recastable still costing 5 holy power. Now its not anymore but 5 minutes ago it was. Was it a bug or intentional, but its bugged again?
Still, even if it was a bug herald was outperforming it by a lot. Templar needs some love. DoT paladin isnt really a fantasy role…
It was bugged.
Now it’s working properly.
Ah damn, was enjoying that and thinking it was really fun change 
it was super much fun and imo. it should never have be a 1use only mechanic. see my comment here: The War Within Hotfixes - 10 September - #43 by Beldain-lordaeron
Maybe you should first get to 80 before recommending any major mechanical changes to a spec that you probably have no good understanding of.
maybe you should actually read the link to my original comment to understand that this mechanic is the reason why i am not level 80.
if you don’t like the multi usage because you say it is “clunky” then hey don’t use it. Nobody forces you to use it multiple times even if it is possible. Or just play the other hero spec.
But I want to use it multiple times! And as I stated already in other comments. The original tooltip say “woa is replaced with hammer of light for 12 seconds” - this clearly describes a multi-usage mechanic. Because what it misses to describe a single usage mechanic is at least the world “ONCE”.
→ my whole argumentation doesnt have anything to do with being level 80 or not.
clunkyness and whatever else you want to argue against the multi usage doesn’t matter for me because these are problems that can be solved differently! for example you can reduce HoL HP cost to 4 and scale down the damage respectively. There are enough ways to improve / nerf or speed the spec up differently then restricting HoL usage to 1. Like e.g. increase the hastebuff to 15 again instead of 12. This is just a matter of tuning numbers.
If you don’t like the single usage because it is not “fun” then hey, don’t use it. Nobody forces you to use it, or just play something else.
This could be interpreted as both so I do not get this argument at all.
The tree is very clearly designed around a one time use of HoL and not mutliple.
Wow, I guess you should apply for a job at Blizzard then as a designer since you find it so easy to design a spec in WoW.
Almost like hero talents went through tons and tons of changes since their original release based on the design goals of the designer and feedback from the community who actively play Ret in high end content, but I guess you know more than them.
It’s also telling of the fact that the only people who keep advocating for this bug and its garbage playstyle are the ones who have no idea how to play it at a high level and are not generally invested enough to want to learn how the game works and how it is being designed.
No, this is very much a matter of design.
If HoL did poop damage nobody would like it being multi use.
People just got a couple of lucky Divine Purpose procs with HoL critting and decided that “WOW this is so much FUN, I’ve never had so much FUN playing this game” when their brain forgot all of the other times you didn’t get that lucky Divine Purpose proc and were now forced to spend 2-4 gcds just building holy power to use HoL again.
you are absolutely right and I will not use it.
yea the tree should have been designed for multiuse from the beginning since the tooltip didn’t change since march.
→
and no you can not interpret it as both. because non of the tooltip states that this is supposed to happen:
and i don’t see that the tree is clearly designed around one time use.
There is only the talent “hammerfall” that hints towards the single use but only if you expect hammerfall to be used inside burst window - and all other talents fit the multi usage. And even hammerfall is still valuable in multiusage because shake of the heavens will be refreshed with every use of HoL so you will have more emyrian hammers triggered by Hammerfall outside of the burst window.
→ I don’t see any reason why this design does not suite HoL multicast
on top of that it seems like the general consensus it that templar is underperforming compared to herald. So something did not go well on this tuning in combination with single usage.
I think you forgot about all the haste% loss that you have due to the gear / level 80scaling that will make the spec feel more clunky by default. There will be much more haste to get till you are at max item level so that building up 5hp shouldn’t be a problem.
I already argued that building up 5hp is no problem already now.
I don’t think its a problem to press 2-4 gcds on builders as long as you have builders to press. And with the new higher proc chances on the auto attack resets that shouldn’t be a big of a problem and it will further improve with the better gear.
Well it wasn’t, so it’s useless to advocate for any changes.
Except that you can and people have done both as soon as the talents were released for the first time.
Except that it clearly is.
The whole middle row is designed around your Shake the Heavens uptime, which would be meaningless with multiple use since having full uptime on it would be a joke since each HoL gives you a new Shake the Heavens window, and that Shake the Heavens window is clearly supposed to be a form of skill expression, which disappears if you can have 100% uptime.
So no, it does not suite HoL multicast.
The tuning has nothing to do with it being single use or multi.
The tuning is almost the same but no one plays Templar because Templar requires more skill to use and people will always choose the easier option, as long as the numbers allow.
Spec feels totally fine to play now, and dare I say, fun, especially with Herald and Crusade.
There’s no amount of haste that will make having to build to 5 holy power over and over again fun and besides, you’re not gonna be stacking haste on ret.
Except that it would totally be a problem, and it would be really boring.
Eventually you would run out of builders since you need to build so much and then you would just be standing there hoping for an Art of War proc or until something comes off cd.
there is no reason to interpret it as single use. Because the word ONCE or SINGLE or whatever is missing.
Usually singe use mechanics are described with “your NEXT use”.
Many of “the people” probably saw the mechanic in alpha or beta and never started expecting more from it.
But I do.
On the other hand. You are basically interpreting more into this tooltip then it shows. Namely the mechanic that leads to this:
as it is not described in any tooltip.
So if we are at a point where it is just a matter of fantasy what is supposed to be interpreted in a given tooltip. I could expect that hammer of light to extents the duration of hammer of light instead of the “going away”.
= Fixed a bug that caused Hammer of Light to not extent the duration of hammer of light like expected.
Or I can expect that hammer of light doubles the amount of damage it does after it is cast:
Fixed a bug that caused Hammer of Light to not increase its damage after it is cast.
Or I can expect that hammer of light for example triggers a divine purpose:
Fixed a bug that caused Hammer of Light to not trigger a divine purpose as expected.
I just put ridiculous positive examples here to point out that any mechanic positive or negative - that is not documented in a tooltip is ridiculous to actually be “expected” and that there mustn’t be any room for interpretation in tooltips.
The only thing that we can agree on is that the description of this removal mechanic is missing in the tooltip → the tooltip is wrong.
except it is not. the middle row is designed to trigger emyrean hammers after you are done casting hammer(s) of light.
I can just bring your argument up here that you use all the time - you can interpret this design in both ways. there is no clear indication that this was supposed to trigger after a single use of HoL.
The middle row actually works exactly the same in single use or multi use scenario after the last execution of HoL. In the multi use scenario it will probably run longer overall and it is easier to achieve 100% update. But my current expectation is that you will be able to reach 100% update with single HoL too. You just need enough hast to get 1 crusader strike per 1.5 seconds and the remaining duration increase you cover with blade of justice. That is just a matter of enough haste. Probably not achievable in season 1 but there will be more haste to get in later seasons. So considering 100% uptime as unexpected behaviour here is just another interpretation of the design.
i actually just tested it, and it is possible to extent the duration of shake the heavens to 30 seconds already now.
Except it is clearly designed for single use.
There would be no point of the Shake the Heavens window if you could easily just have 100% uptime of it and your reward of keeping the window up and playing well is getting a free cast of HoL every now and then, depending on how well you managed it.
I don’t think you’re ever gonna be able to get 100% uptime on it because you’re never gonna come even close to the Haste required, I don’t even know if it’s possible to reach that even with insane Haste since it caps out at a certain point.
I guess it would probably be possible to get to 30 seconds when you’re in Bloodlust and you get the free cast since it gives you a new window so you can chain the normal one with the free cast one, but that’s not always gonna happen.
Especially on actual raid fights since you’re not gonna have full uptime on a boss, which is Templar’s main drawback, that it suffers way more than Herald with loss of any uptime.
I usually have Shake the Heavens around 65-72/3% uptime on a dummy, and that should go down a bit in fights but get higher with more stats, but nowhere near 100% that multi use would allow.
mathematically it is possible to have infinite uptime
due to the cooldown of the 1s duration increase being .5sec and the actual duration increase of 1s you could be able to increase the duration by 2s per 1s runtime. You see the point?
What I tested today with my paladin was basically a crusader strike + blade of justice only rotation i clicked blade of justice roughly in the middle of the 2 crusader strikes. And by that i was easily able to extent the duration to fill the gab between two WOA. Am i am currently like at 15% haste due to the gear. I measured that I currently have a crusader strike auto attack around 2.1 seconds.
Lets assume i actually have 40% haste (which was kindof easily possible in season 4) so i would expect my crusader strikes to hit every 2.1*1.15/1.4 = 1.75 sec with 1.75 seconds the crusader strikes alone will increase the duration of shake the heavens by 1 per 1.75 seconds that means the actual duration loss of shake the heavens in 1.75 seconds is 0.75 seconds. This again means that you are at 1.75/0.75x8 = 18.666 seconds duration only via crusader strikes. But to consider that crusader strike will also create even more procs after the 19 sec in case we achieved more procs with blade of justice or hammer of w we do the calculation the other way round. We do 27/1.75 = 15.43 crusader strike procs so 15 proc. You need 27-8 = 19 actual procs (27 = woa cd). that means there are only 4 procs left you need to generate within the first 20 seconds with blade of justice or hammer of wrath to let crusader strikes do the remaining work and that shouldn’t be a big deal.
And i am not talking about bloodlust yet and i didn’t consider crusaders haste nor the hammer of light haste buff
the 100% uptime looks pretty achievable for me!
I can’t say if reaching 100% uptime will ever be possible, maybe in theory, but in practice, I doubt it.
Also it will still require some form of skill to min-max it as much as possible so at least it will actually feel good when you see yourself improving and getting more and more uptime with gear and better play.
Herald’s still more fun for me though.
if everybody play herald then progressing to 100% shake the Heavens uptime is very unlikely to happen for somebody
but that seems to be the current state of the class spec and if you have fun with it, good for you 
and with the new 10 sec base duration? - makes my calculation towards 100% update even more realistic 
i am actually not a fan of it.
Now they did the numbers tuning that i was talking about. But they did it even more towards the single usage 
Templar needs to be fixed not only with the damage it does but in the way it functions 5hp spenders mess with the Ret rotation.
Herald does not effect the Ret rotation and while templars are hoping to get hammer of light casts heralds are just pumping away and doing way more damage.
i don’t see a problem it being a 5hp spender as long as it is a single use skill
it is kind of for free in between woa and divine toll
for multi usage on the other hand yea 5hp to much but it doesn’t look like multiusage will come back - they just increased the raw power of the skill - that makes is very unlikely that they are actually considering the return of the multi usage
I play both and have been testing both herald is still better even with the buffs.
Its close but herald just edges it still.
And herald feels better