Just admit you have no solution Blizzard, otherwise we would have heard it by now. But I just want to let you know, if you give healers a gold bonus then I’m going to queue on a healer alt and go afk for 6 rounds for free gold. This is a warning to not give healers an unfair advantage.
Enjoy your suspension then
1 Like
Do you have any idea how much it would jack up the economy if healers had a 24/7 access to call to arms satchel?
This needs to be calculated as if leaver lost every single round and then scale down to how many matches were done.
Explanation:
Let's say that if I as a healer lost 3 rounds with a player, he leaves, then calculate it as if I had 3-3 and then scale it down (I didn't do 6 matches) to 3/6 (= half) rating gain.
If it's done in a dumb way (you played 3 rounds so let's see your winrate) then people will lose rating just because they were unfortunate enough to be in party with leaver (usually leaver is the worst player, that's why he leaves).
I don't want to lose rating just because a player left and I didn't have chance to be matched enough against him.
This needs to be simply counted as if leaver lost every single round (maybe except the ones he won before he left - so rather as if he lost every following round that weren't played because he left).
I've had so many 5-0s that would've been 6-0. Do you think those two last unlucky players deserve to lose rating just because they couldn't win vs leaver, because he left?
I do not think so. I think leaver knows he would'Ve lost the last match, and he wants to grieve them. Don't make system to grief people.
1 Like
You’re absolutely wrong.
First of all: There’s 1 prot Pala over 2400. So let’s assume he isn’t the reason why healer’s have half as much representation as it would be if distributed equally.
Second of all: More dps means they’re having less matches. Exactly because there’s more desparity between dps and healers, it means healers do have more matches, therefore should gain more rating than somebody with less matches.
So what you described should actually work the other way around and cause way more healers to higher ratings and there should be like 50% of healers above 2400 and not 17%.
That’s irrelevant, and that isn’t what I said.
What it means is that while climbing from 0, a DPSer’s rating climb isn’t 100% tied to healers climbing. DPSers can get rating from other DPSers and tanks, outside of the healers ecosystem.
And you’re saying they’ve got fewer games played per player, and sure, that’s naturally what happens with this distribution of roles. Nobody said anything different. But that doesn’t mean individuals can’t climb, as you can clearly see.
^ As for that one, that’s completely wrong. If you don’t look at it per player and instead just compare shuffles played between the roles overall, then DPSers come out on top. Simply because there’s more of them, and they aren’t limited to only healers in their shuffles, unlike healers.
Your insinuations are kinda all over the place, but that’s what it ends up like.
No, not really. That’s a huge misunderstanding of the way it works. You’re talking like it’s a straight climb, which it really isn’t. Losing rating is a thing, and not gaining rating is a well-observed thing that can happen, and I’m not even talking about shuffles with people abandoning before it’s finished.
It’s the way as explained earlier:
Again, no, because if you count prot pallys as healers, there is still unequal distribution.
Argument of “well healers can be stood in by prot pally” would work if prot pally + healers would make up third of rating pool, but they don’t.
It’s 100% tied to healer or prot pally climbing and neither healers nor prot pallys climb well.
Yet DPS do.
Again, you’re thinking of it way too linearly. It’s not a straight climb. More games doesn’t equal more rating earned for the individual. It means more inflation and deflation events, but that doesn’t necessarily end up with the individual, so healers being less likely to dominate in a shuffle, they end up less likely to get the new rating points from the inflation events.
Also, you seem to think everyone plays the same amount yet don’t somehow, otherwise it really makes no sense why you keep thinking this particular distribution in roles is somehow relevant.
No, it really isn’t. The long matchmaking times keeps them separated by quite a bit. It’s not like people on all rating ranges are getting matched up within 5 minutes or less, you know?
Meanwhile, the results ends up the way that they do, for reasons already explained. More shuffles played won’t change that.
Which is also caused by rating disbalance with healers. Makes my point.
That’s the point. Despite being on par with DPS skill-wise, under same circumstances you gain rating SLOWER and ress-reliably as healer, because it’s more deflated with healers than DPS.
Pushing rating as healer is so much harder.
That part isn’t relevant. If there’s a healer who can get 4 to 6 wins in a shuffle as often as a good DPSer can, then that healer would be climbing at a similar speed (barring differences in MMR diversity in the matchups).
It’s just that healers aren’t able to carry as much as a DPSer, so healers don’t tend to get such high win rates, hence it being slower and reaching a lower roof rating-wise.
That might be one part of the reason yes. That the game expects you to meet unrealistic conditions when you’re healer, but realistic condition while you’re DPS in order to climb, which results in healers not climbing as much.
I am just pointing out that it’s an issue, when it’s harder to push rating as healers, and maybe it’s one of the causes of low healer participation.
The game tries to tell you “you’re better as dps because you pushed as high as dps but not as healer”.
Similarly then some dps kinda get cocky, because you reached rating as healer that’s harder to attain that it is for DPS to attain, and then they assume it’s the same effort while data shows, that it’s not.
I agree completely, and I’ve said it before in other threads but providing more skill expressions and player advocacy in the hands of healer roles would help treat that problem. They also need to achieve a closer balance to each other between the different healer classes/specs in the game for shuffles, since some are way more popular than others.
So with healers having a clear impact on who wins, more than just meeting the heal requirement that’s expected of a player when healing, it would also result in more competition between healers to get the wins.
With DPSers not having as much impact on who wins as they do now, it also means healers wouldn’t be stuck with win rates closer to 50% either. There’d be larger differences between the healer win rates like that, from player to player.
Just to be clear though, I’m not advocating for deep dampening games. Because that wouldn’t be an improvement. But healers need to be able to carry more than now.
I don’t think I agree. I think there are lot of ways you can differentiate yourself from enemy healer. It’s not just healing.
But I agree it’s kinda bad, that all it matters is seemingly healing output. Sure I can get through some damage, but that is usually only in like first few seconds of the match, otherwise I am risking a lot. Further the dampening the more you have to spam heal, and the less you yourself contribute and the more is what your class contributes (therefore less Priests winning, more evokers winning).
But even then there’s stuff you can do, pre-dome something, Ground something, set up CC…
Overall however I don’t think it’s that healers don’t have enough impact. I think they might be often very similarly skilled and are in a pat in which none of them push rating. Which I do think is bad. Maybe they should compete against DPS too, meaning if you have high rated DPS that didn’t score 6-0, then you succeeded well at healing even the “worse” players same as enemy healer.
I don’t think it’s gameplay issue. I think it’s rating gain calculation issue.
What is gameplay issue is what healers are high rated (a lot of same classes, not enough of others).
They do compete against DPSers too though. Everyone is subjected to the same “calculations” as you put it, that’s why healers have a harder time climbing to the top of the ladder. Because to climb to the top, and the closer you get to the roof, the better you must perform. Meaning you must get a higher win rate on that high rating in order to keep climbing.
Which healers just can’t do (as reliably), because of the gameplay issues.
The one difference is that healers are never on the same team in a shuffle. But that just means the 6 wins in a shuffle, are split between the healers since they’re never on the same side. So if one gets 1 win, the other gets 5, or if one gets 4 wins, the other gets 2, and so on.
Let’s put in different way.
Assume 4 DPS 2 healers.
If they played 6 arena matches (3v3), where they switched teams, healers with 50% winrate would likely be at higher rating than what they started as.
In other words: What you describe would necessarily had to apply to 3v3 too, but we can see it doesn’t. Yet it applies in Solo Shuffle. In 3v3 healers have the same opportunities to differentiate themselves as they do in Shuffle. Yet in Shuffle somehow they end up with less rating. Why is it so? Their design doesn’t change for Shuffle.
The difference is that the rating doesn’t move between the rounds. It’s all summed up as the shuffle ends, or if someone abandons then it just skips it (which they’ll fix at some point).
So you winning 3/6 in the normal ladder, would move your rating and MMR after each match. While in a shuffle it doesn’t do that.
And my point is, that the sum doesn’t work for healers in Shuffle.
It’s summed up wrong, because with same skill, same effort, same everything, the same healer ends up with lower rating gain in Shuffle than in 3v3, while DPS does not.
Maybe it’s all caused by leavers. Possibly. Because they deflate rating and healers are likeliest to leave to save MMR imo.
It’s not exactly “same everything”, there’s also the impact of streaks to consider, differences between your CR to enemies’ MMRs (which you can’t see), and exactly which rounds you won since the ratings and MMRs doesn’t move from round to round.
So those initial matchmaking values, meaning the MMRs of everyone in the shuffle, matters from before the very first round.
Also, the way streaks works in shuffle, is something that’s still very vague. Oh, and how much they win or lose also depends on their own ongoing streaks.
You’re saying “it’s not same, it’s different in a way how rating calculates”.
That is my point.
It’s different in a way that rating calculates. The result shouldn’t differ as much therefore I view it as rating calculation issue. That’s pretty much it. Simple logic.
Irrelevant to the roles though.
It’s brushing everyone under the same comb, so to speak.
The difference lies in what results the different roles are able to achieve on average, where DPSers have it easier to secure wins than healers. Ergo, it’s a gameplay design issue.
But ok, let’s go down the path of creating a separate system entirely for healers. Not only would it aggravate the wintrading exploitation, it’d also create issues when designs are changed. If they ever buff a healer like that to where they can actually carry, then that healer spec would fly to the moon rating-wise since the rating system would’ve been designed for a lower performance average in that case.
So the way to solve it, is via the gameplay design.