is Rogue class design really supposed to be tanky melee?
has self healing, Cloak, Evasion, etc. making him target that’s very hard to kill
Paladin
is Paladin’s class design really supposed to be squishy glass cannon?
Mage
is Mage’s design supposed to be self-healing tanky caster?
Currently those are examples of direction of some classes that absolutely doesn’t make sense to me. I’d expect Rogue to be squishy and Paladin to be tanky, yet it’s the opposite, Plate wearing juggernout just flops over while some sneaky guy with leather jacket soaks massive damage out of damage and immune it with no issue whatsoever.
In Classic TBC these things weren’t as influential and I’m pretty sure they had higher cooldown.
In Classic Rogue is squishy. Now it’s not.
Armor also mattered a lot. Now everything does magic damage.
I am saying everything does magic damage, not that everything is magic… which you somehow conflated. E.G. Final Verdict from Paladin does FULL MAGIC damage and ignores armor. Yet it’s dodged by Evasion.
That’s why I am saying Armor isn’t influential, but Evasion still is.
Yes making it worse version of Divine Shield. Whereas now, they have it 2-5x more often (depending on the spec) making them substantially more tankier vs melee than a Plate class.
And with Cloak of Shadows, they’re tankier vs casters too.
And towards the Recuperate (which now is noob-friendly baked into SnD so they don’t waste resources healing themselves): it was Rogue healing back then possibly, but now they also have Vial & absorbs on restealths.
The fact it that Rogue is tanky right now. It wasn’t back then. We can argue how much that is by cooldown meaning more now, or by Rogue’s cooldown being reduced, while Divine Shield stayed, etc.
I am just raising question whether it really fits Rogue’s class fantasy. And since Rogue WAS actually squishy in TBC (I played TBC btw, as a Priest in 2s with Rogue).
To me, I’d imagine Paladin to be tankier than Rogue.
Which is wrong because Warriors to this day are pure physical.
Nobody brought up armor. You did. It’s irrelevant to this thread.
It’s 2 minutes cooldown now. That’s a little more than twice as often. Or twice as little if you think about individual fights where a rogue previously could use Evasion twice in a row for double the duration, they now cannot.
And yes, it’s worse version of Divine Shield. That’s why it has a lesser cooldown and doesn’t give a debuff such as forbearance (idk if that’s even still a thing though I don’t play pala).
Besides Vanish that literally is their ONLY defensive against casters.
Absolutely irrelevant to my point.
He said rogues couldn’t heal in Wotlk, so I told him he was wrong. That is the only reason I brought up Recuperate.
Also quote me exactly where I said that Rogues aren’t tanky, because never did I even imply that they aren’t.
Let’s say that we agree that these abilities do not fit their class fantasy (I don’t agree but for the sake of the conversation, let’s say I do).
They still need to have these abilities to be able to compete in PvP. Without them they may as well not exist. Any damage dealer would destroy them just by looking in their general direction.
You can not compare a half-immunity that is not even a full immunity because you can still stun them during Evasion, or damage them from behind or CC them in any other way such as a warrior’s intimidating shout – to Divine Shield, which is a 100% perfect full immunity.
That is why Evasion is less cooldown. It is not a full immunity.
Well ye. The class design went down the pooper when they started to try make all spec viable for everything- dungeons raid pvp etc.
Back in the day it was fury - pve, arms pvp, fire mage pve, frost mage pvp, disc pvp , holy pve.
It was the community perception and it work better imho. Now every spec have to work in every sibgle scenario, and that makes the classes very generic.
Rogue design has almost always been kinda asinine. They even used to be even tankier than they are now!
Cloak of Shadows was a 1m cooldown until WoD.
They had Recuperate, a decent heal. (Still do in the form of a conduit)
They had Combat Readiness, which reduces damage taken by up to 50% for up to 20 seconds on a 2m cooldown. Admitedly it was only effective against melee.
Dismantle, the best Disarm in the game because it also disarmed your ranged weapons. Something Warriors couldn’t do.
Feint (with a talent) reduced all damage taken by 20% and all AoE damage by 50%. And it used to have no cooldown. Now it has been nerfed to 10%/30% i believe, with a short cooldown.
And Cheat Death, of course.
And even after they lost most of the above they were still the go-to soaker for raids. Because they tanked damage better than anyone but actual tanks. They are still really tanky for god knows what reason. Blizzard keeps going on about classes having strenghts and weaknesses. So what are Rogues weakness supposed to be? No party/raid buffs? Ohh wait… laughs in Restless Crew.
I’ve always thought there should have been a magic based cloth tank. Somthing along the lines of…
Apparition Warlock
Barrier/Defense/Shield Mage
Healers would need a mana gain spell for both but it would need to be well timed, single target long cast with a longish CD and may have a small tank debuff especially while channeling.
Some people seem to think this makes sense, others do not.
Ye that’s another thing. Ret Paladin will get choice node whether to have Shield of Vengeance or Divine Protection (20% DR, 2 min CD). While Rogue has Feint (30% DR if talented, 15 sec CD).
And that’s another reason why I ask this question. Looking at these classes, does it really make sense like that?
To me, it does not.
It was a hyperbole.
By this logic this thread is irrelevant, because nobody brought up this thread, I did.
WTF?
I talk about design that doesn’t make sense, which as end result makes some classes tankier other classes squishier while you’d expect otherwise (it’d make sense otherwise).
Well also possibly smoke bomb or shadowy duel, but those do make sense.
You also forgot Feint and Cheat Death.
And Cloak is again, ready very often. Resulting in Rogue being tankier than Paladin both against melee and casters, because he has crucial cooldowns more often, has more of them and has stronger version of them.
They might not need all of those abilities, in fact they dropped Feint (30% DR) in some tournaments. Other classes deal with much more issues than Rogue, because part of what Rogue can do, is to CC defensively.
Also Rogue is one of the tankiest classes for PvP, so saying it needs to be like that doesn’t really make sense. It’s also currently the strongest PvP class.
You can stun them only with some stuns, other (Kidney Shot, Maim, Bash) will get dodged. Sure you can Stormbolt them… but speaking about Warriors - they can literally remove Bubble. So while you get CCed in Evasion, you still will be left with longer duration of Evasion than if Warrior removes Bubble with Shattering Throw. Making Evasion much stronger against Warrior than Bubble.
So if Warrior faces Rogue + Paladin, his target of choice is the squishy melee instead of the unkillable tank. So he’s going to try to kill Paladin.
That however results in Rogues being simply tankier.
Explain to me how a rogue dodging attacks isn’t exactly their class fantasy?
Those aren’t defensives. Those are utility.
which is totally fine since it’s the only thing that actively stops magic damage.
It’s not tankier than paladin.
It’s really not though.
You should look up the definition of ‘tanky’. It means that they can TAKE damage very well and live. They cannot.
You can stun them with anything if you time it right or use it whenever they’re not in evasion which is literally any time except for like what, 8 seconds every 2 minutes.
And warriors are the only class who can.
If you don’t want get shattered then stop the warrior from casting it. simple as.
this is a rock-paper-scissors game. You’re complaining about scissors while playing paper, forgetting that rock is there to help you.
Not that simple.
We could go rogue if he’s too squishy but we usually just don’t wanna deal with a ‘vanish runner’, so we go paladin instead simply because after we get bubble out of the way, he can’t run.