Some constructive feedback towards the abysmal raid tuning of Mage and Fire's struggling design

Hello, I’m Pyrha! A seasoned mage player since WoD and almost exclusively a fire player since Legion. and I wanted to share my concerns with some of the design and tuning woes this spec is facing, as well as touch a bit on the state of mage as a whole in 10.2.

I will attempt to keep this post as constructive as I can but make no mistake, the neglect this class has received is an incredibly disappointing sight, all the same, I will try to keep the front half of this post focused on the issues the spec and class faces exclusively, but Ill also take a minute to vent my frustrations about the approach to fire and how it’s actively damaged the spec over the years.

First, let’s touch on some good.
The rework we received in 10.1.5 really inspired hope as it was our first design update in over a year by that point and re-established a solid footing for a spec that was by that point absolutely woeful in its design.
Namely, some of the good changes were:
• The removal of pyroclasm and baking it into SKB was a pretty elegant fix just altogether to the excessive hardcasting fire had to do
• The removal of rune of power cannot be understated, that spell only ever brought problems to the class and being able to once again move around while doing damage was very welcome
• The talent tree cleanup and the removal of many 2 point nodes was well appreciated
• The reworking of flamestrike and it being brought to relevance was fantastic for M+
• Ignite being capped so that it has a niche in low count to permit for fire to possess both strong ST and strong AoE without the balance nightmare involved was…. a good attempt. It’s nice to at least see the stated intent was a good idea, however this is where the problems begin.

On that note, the issues fire currently faces post rework:

• Beginning with ignite, I just can’t wrap my head around why it is still coupled to mastery, we’re possibly the only spec in the game which has an entirely separate playstyle hinging exclusively on how much of a secondary we can stack. Even with the aforementioned changes, ignite still is effectively our only form of relevant cleave regardless of target count. If you want to use flamestrike in raid you’d be actively trolling because of the enormous ST loss.
The solution here is to completely decouple mastery from ignite, ignite needs to always be stronger than flamestrike at a low enough target count (Ideally 3T), and weaker at a high enough target count, and in turn give us just a generic, easy to balance mastery. “Hotstreak damage increased by X%” seems reasonable to me. And we already have ignite talents in the tree which can be taken to increase ignite damage to be better than flamestrike on let’s say, 5t. which seems like a sensible tradeoff for some ST loss.

• Second problem is with Feel the Burn, which is both boring to play around and un-impactful to track, the damage loss from dropping FtB is insignificant because it can be built back up immediately anyway and also isn’t nearly a substantial enough buff to care about losing. If you insist on making us play the minigame of juggling a buff, Infernal Cascade was a much much better implementation of that idea, a very powerful buff that necessitated you juggle between fireblasts and phoenix flames to permit it to be carried throughout the course of a combustion. What we have now is basically passively maintained for as long as you throw out a generator every GCD which is how the spec plays anyway.

• The Third issue lies with Phoenix Flames, which without the Aberrus tier set has gone back to being a miserable button to press. It needs one of two fixes, either bring back infernal cascade so phoenix flames can play the role of a buffer between fireblasts which allows you to maintain the buff for longer, or barring that, make Alextrasza’s Fury baseline so you don’t need to take a talent just for an otherwise dead core spell to be usable.

• Temporal Warp, this is an issue for all mage specs and one that’s frankly unforgivable at this point.
How can you sensibly tune us around a 5 minute cooldown that is only used when your group decides to use it. Any fight where lust isn’t used on pull is a fight where mage damage tanks. Just give us a temporal warp button, we’re adults, we know how to macro them together. And Temporal Anomaly is not an alternative, it is far too inconsistent and brings an unwelcome variation to performance from pull to pull. Either remove this choice node entirely and do not tune us around having two Time Warps, or just remove TA and give us Temporal Warp on it’s own key.

• Unleashed Inferno, I have very strong feelings about this talent and am frankly baffled with how hard its balance was blundered. Fire since legion has found its niche as a 2-minute burst spec, after Nyalotha, this has been reduced to 1-minute burst which was still very useful in raids like Nathria, and after the introduction of SKB as a legendary our profile has completely flattened into what’s basically a straight line. The niche of burst in Dragonflight has since been picked up by arcane which specializes in a decently powerful 90 second burst CD (78 seconds with shifting power), especially with double time warp.

What this effectively means for fire, is that unless it is significantly ahead tuning wise, there is practically no reason to choose it over arcane. Seeing as arcane brings effectively the same (or usually more) dps with a damage profile that can be useful for killing priority adds, damage amps, or downtime.

In response to this, Unleashed Inferno was announced, a wonderful response to the fire mage woes during the rework, a combustion that dealt significantly more damage at the cost of consistent DPS every minute or so! Our burst was back! Then someone at the dev team decided to gut its CDR by 50%, and buff its damage by 5%, which under any metric ever created would have obviously killed the talent. And killed the talent it did.

Even two buffs later Unleashed Inferno is in an unusable state, even with fights that do have priority adds, damage amps, and downtime, SKB is the only viable talent. There is zero reason to ever choose anything else and this makes fire’s damage profile flat with no option to opt out, and as a result it brings nothing to progression except a cheat death which has honestly always been fluff anyway seeing as mage has a very wide defensive toolkit.

Drop this god forsaken short leash on the spec that you’ve put on it since Nyalotha that has deemed that it’s not allowed to do significant burst damage. You cannot in good faith create specs like rogue and demon hunter in 10.2 and pretend like mage burst is the real enemy, please just grow up and let us enjoy our spec’s one strength that has since been neutered.

On the topic of tuning for 10.2, it doesn’t take much to see that, design aside, mage specs are also just floundering numerically in raid at the moment:

h ttps://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35/#dataset=95

And note this is before UHDK, Arms, and Ret Pallies receive their legendary axe, so imagine the disappointment when all three mage specs, which have no future recourse for increased power like a legendary, got absolutely nothing out of the patch except for a 20% self-damage buff to our best trinket while DH’s Rogues and BMs got very small nerfs (Though I understand more tuning to those specs is likely withstanding)
A lot of the time it feels like we as a community of players had to practically beg for anything to be done to our class, for feedback to be heard, and we thought the turning point of all those demands finally came through in the rework. But as feared the rework was a one and done deal, the class is back to being neglected, and it feels there’s not a single person on the balance team that plays this class for Blizzard to see the state it’s in and not think that it needs any help. For now, as usual, arcane is the only spec worth playing even if it’s also bad because it’s the only one with a favorable profile, and even then you bring just one for the intellect buff while the rest of the raid is stacked with DHs Rogues and Hunters.

I do apologize for the frustrated tone of this post, understand it comes from a place of love and dedication to a spec (Not even a class) that I have poured 7000 hours of my life into, I want to be able to play it without feeling like I’m actively harming my team or my performance, and I hope this write up reaches someone at Blizz who can sympathize with that.

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Good post. I would like to add a couple of things:

  1. Ignite spread being near-uncapped will always be problematic. I think the most elegant solution to bring it back to reason is simply to change the way it spreads so that you don’t gain much (or any) damage beyond, say , 5 targets, similarly to Sin’s Caustic Spatter.

  2. Moving SKB away from the spotlight to get some burst back would also require needing to put some thought back into our currently neglected kit like Living Bomb or Phoenix Flames. LB does too little damage and has no identity because it doesn’t interact with anything and is kept down by IE, PF just does awful damage and it’s a shadow of its Legion self (remember Strafing Run?). Even Hyperthermia just kinda got yoinked from WoD, but in practice it just doesn’t fit Fire. Without these extra tools to play with, you risk non-SKB fire to be incredibly boring.

  1. Yes, my suggestion to decouple it from mastery would ideally mean that no amount of secondary can ever make ignite a preferable alternative to flamestrike. Since the only tuning knob that affects them (versatility and primary) affects both spells equally. So you could just tune 5T Ignite to be weaker than 5T flamestrike

  2. While I would enjoy 1 minute fire coming back in it’s shadowlands iteration, I completely sympathize with people not enjoying a filler which at this point feels pretty dated. There’s a few ways to solve this like you suggested by adding extra tools during filler, though I imagine they would need a particularly significant redesign for them to actually feel synergistic with the spec as opposed to a tacked on legacy addition to give you something to do while you wait for combustion.

I feel this at the moment. Was saying to a friend yesterday that Fire mage damage is only viable in combustion, but now they given more ways to get into it, it has had it’s damage dented and made into it’s normal damage instead of it being their cooldown. The idea of the mage bursting into flames during combustion was the embodiment of “tactical nuke incoming”, now it’s reduced to to keeping a candle lit. Even the sound and animation when you use it makes it feel like it should be the big moment.

Fire mage has always been about that big burst moment, even with the older Combustions being a massive dot or improving your crit chance to create that bigger damage window.

I dont want to take SKB away from people that enjoy playing it now, but surely they can do something for the players that stuck with the class for longer and bring the playstyle we love back and have both options ?

This post on the US forums sums it up really well:

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Have to agree, literaly every mythic+ group I am in I see other dps class’s easily trouncing my aoe and also boss fight dps as a fire mage.

Only time fire mage felt like a dps class again was just after the intial rework, then they nerfed it into the ground for pairing well with evoker.

Its almost like the devs seriously do not like mage.

Double lust has to go. Having fun only every 10 minutes is not the way to build a spec or class around. That double lust is our real damage CD and having to be balanced to being a blinking turd between those 10 minutes is awful. Time Anomaly should be the default, as especially Fire has no RNG to it at all. While that might sound good to some, it’s actually a problem that further underscores the flat damage curve problem. If our damage is not consistently good, it’s garbage, because nobody needs consistently low, or at best mediocre, damage that can never excel at anything. But if it’s consistently good, it’s overpowered, because why bother with RNG if there’s a consistently good choice?

RNG does not need to be an element of our game play. I agree with you on the removal of double lust, but there’s zero reason to make TA baseline.

Having consistently good damage every pull doesn’t mean you’re OP, it means you’re consistently good. Likewise having your pull by pull performance be decided by RNG is not healthy. Keep that away from fire.

There are plenty of reason even outside of the RNG thing. With the new set Fire is quite starved for Fireblast charges, because they are used a lot more vs. the terrible default Phoenix Flame. And there is nothing similar to the Lucid Dream essence apart from TA. I would prefer a different solution than TA as well, but I don’t see them come up with new talents after mage already had it’s rework.

You might not think consistently good damage is OP, but Blizzard did, as is apparent from the fact that they nerfed Fire into garbage. The tuning team’s lack of understanding of Augmentation didn’t help, but even with other specs now being the targets for Aug and PI feeding, they are not giving them the same treatment, so I can only assume they had issue with how reliably Fire was producing it’s numbers on every single pull.

I agree with almost everything except PFs. I really didn’t enjoy weaving in scorch and PF during execute. I like PF as it is now, choice between extra instants, extra stas or extra proc builders. Still feel like we could do with a few extra buttons. O and I think mage masterys should just be:

Fire: Fire damage
Frost: Frost damage
Arcane: Arcane damage (+mana)

You can have all the utility in the class tree like db, ice nova and chuck in supernova and have them be more useful for the correct spec.

Fire is absolutely not starved for fire blasts just because you dont have 12 phoenix flames charges for free anymore. You just scorch weave and fireball more often now. And again, relying on TA RNG to give you back resources as a primary method of resource management would suck. Fire since Legion has had a dramatically small amount of RNG in its kit, changing that now would run counter to it’s philosophy of pooling your resources well to spend them intelligently, and that is wholly unnecessary.

Consistently good damage is not why fire was nerfed, it was consistently overtuned damage which caused it to be nerfed. Aug or otherwise fire was by far and away the single best M+ spec for throughput post rework, and 4 nerfs later still retained its position as top dog in M+. The narrative that fire was only good with PI+Aug is false, it got externals because it was the strongest, nothing about fire operated particularly well with either of these buffs.

And for what its worth, every WCLogs and RaiderIO metric is showing that fire is still incredibly good in M+, this post is primarily concerned with raid tuning as well as design problems the spec faces. But in no shape or form is the takeaway here to add RNG to the spec.

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Only if your tank pulls huuuge. Flamestrikes uncapped aoe has become a big problem for average players.

It is now that Fire only operates acceptably with PI and Aug, but is entirely lacklustre without them. Looking at the top comps it’s the same old Priest+Aug with a Mage. Fire had been the strongest on it’s own before, and got blown out of proportion by the still unnerfed externals. You can scour logged keys at 26+ on WCL, even with Augs Fire is never topping. Rets and Boomies outperform it and if DHs are in the run, the difference in dps is almost 100k, which is worse than when Fire was still unnerfed.

On the mastery, we agree, I want it to be as simple as possible so it never gets in the way of balance. I like the idea of hot streak damage better for fantasy reasons but it really really does not matter so long as I don’t get nerfed because of it.

As for PF, to each their own, I find it as a choice for extra instants only in combustion to be rather strange seeing as that is the purpose of Fireblast. Making PF just an inherently worse version of the same spell. Giving it some purpose besides being a worse Fireblast would be preferable to me, once again I enjoyed the Shadowlands iteration of making it a buffer for Infernal Cascade, but barring that I am happy to just see Alexstrasza’s Fury become baseline instead.

Change to heroic and suddenly arcane is number 4 and Frost dead middle of the pack
This is where the specs are more likely to be when we have reliable information on the whole raid in mythic so far we DO NOT have good information on most bosses in mythic for logs.

STOP using mythic logs so early they are literally not worth it to look at you have no real actionable information from it.

Remember Firemage was SUPER OP last season and i see the same people who where defending it then are now going out talking about needing to be top of the top to be worth anything.

Most mage specs are around middle of the pack right now mages can handle being middle of the pack for 1 patch.

if you are going to USE this defence DO NOT EVER USE THE 95 or higher PERCENTILE on warcraftlogs to show how things are balanced because that is the EXACT same type of thing.
I do not want to see a SINGLE mage talk about logs that high if you want the defense that only the best people is using the potential of the class.

Oh look suddenly mage specs are good
And that is using the flawed way that is used by people here.

The misconception that heroic logs are an accurate representation of heroic play is incorrect.

Top heroic logs are occupied by CE raiders reclearing heroic and blowing bosses up in less than two minutes. Which of course would make a burst profile like arcane look good. Take a regular heroic pull where the boss lives for the intended period of time, and arcane once again flounders.

You also cant use low to middling heroic logs either, because at that point personal mistakes are rampant and spec performance starts to be sorted out by difficulty of use as opposed to actual maximum potential.

Mage was OP last season yes, its bad now, im complaining about that, hope thats okay with you.

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75 percentile is not low or middeling it is above average logs.
What this mean is that 75% of the playerbase are ignored it is the top 25% only you are looking at.

It is more accurate then Mythic logs because we literally do not have kills on every boss in logs yet.
There is zero on Fyrakk there is 1 log on Tindral, Smolderon are starting to get a few but many specs have 1 log representing the whole spec.

It is AT WORST case scenario middle of the pack not bad at all.
Being middle of the pack is not bad at all.

I know mage players are used to be top 1 or top 2 or top 3 but other classes should be there at times not just mage.

The top 25% of heroic is by all means still not valuable data. Again, there’s a reason why we look to mythic in particular, and that’s because the top of the top is the only place where spec performance is actually maximized.

Granted, Tindral and Fyrakk are important fights and your spec performing well there means it’s probably just good in this raid tier, so I will withhold judgement on the state of mage for those two til we get there, but early signs are not good. Firedup, who’s arguably the best mage player in the world, was competing with his tanks for damage in the RWF on those two fights.

As for Smolderon, consider why some specs have 1 or 2 kills (such as fire or frost) on the fight logged, while others have hundreds (Arcane) on the same class. It’s a hard fight no doubt, not a lot of people have killed it yet, but when given the choice some specs are just not brought for a reason.

So I say this with all due respect, using top 25% heroic logs, or really any heroic log, is a pointless metric. Mythic only logs, especially so early, are not perfect either, but its a much more accurate representation of spec performance. And by that metric, mage isn’t good, nor is it middling. All three specs are actively under performing, with the exception of Arcane on Smolderon. I would be very surprised to see a single high rank kill so far that’s running more than one mage for Arcane Intellect and I think that’s an issue for a class that has three dps specs.

I honestly don’t get how fire mage was so strong.

When i try out the aoe rotation on the aoe dummies i get 200k dps at ilvl 447, that’s SUBSTANTIALLY below most other specs. And i’m not screwing up. My rotation is not perfect on fire i make a few mistakes, but it’s almost perfect.

I think their aoe was nerfed by around 25/30%, but that would still put aoe on 5 targets at around 250/260k, which is NOT that impressive, it’s good, but it’s not way above and beyond everyone else.

That’s because Flamestrike is not that good at 5T. Flamestrike’s damage scales a lot better with higher target count which is how most dungeons look like this season. On that note though, there has been a hybrid ignite build running around recently which performs much better at 5T

I don’t really see how flamestrike would scale better at high targets considering that it’s also soft capped.

Aside living bomb scaling from flame patch.

If that was the interaction that got fire mage nerfed, then they should remove it in my opinion, and buff back flamestrike/patch to how it used to be.