There is another way: make the covenant abilities a lvl60 talent row, and covenants become lore and cosmetic driven.
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The wow community doesn’t even understand what they need or is good for the game themselves, that’s also been proven. It’s fine if you think a minority should dictate how a game should be played, aka what talents to run, what race to be and judge you based on that. I can’t stand those people, they literally ruined the fun for many people. And no, you’re not being punished if you choose something that is slightly less than optimal. It is people who want everything to be the best, with no downsides who have make me like WoW less and less over the years.
edit: I should clarify that some talents are indeed better than others ofc in different situations, and doing certain content with the wrong talents isn’t good aswell, aka having talents for single target on aoe pulls etc.However, having 1 ability that does slighty different than the other won’t make or break the game.
Ye, degenarate one of the main feature to cosmetic and lore only. Sounds best business decision eva!
If you think the “min-maxing community” ruined WoW, you are stupid. Sure, it may have ruined it for you, but it’s so stupid to complain about that.
Blizzard put those talents there to use them in specific situations. Of course I’m not going to use Avenging Crusader against an RMP in 3s, because if I try to make use out of it, I’m just going to get locked out easily.
Of course I’m not going to use War Machine if I’m raiding, because it’s an insane net DPS loss for that.
Players are encouraged to think and experiment about how they can perform better. If you think that ruins your experience as a player, then I’m really sorry to say this, but you are playing the wrong game.
Whether someone copied a build from Icyveins because they don’t want to put in the effort to experiment and Research on their own, whether someone created a full Crit Vers build for themselves, running abilities that scale off crits insanely, everyone is min-maxing to a degree. Just because someone found a great way to clear a specific content, that doesn’t mean that the fun is ruined now. In fact, most players find it fun to find that one build that is extremely useful in that situation. And this isn’t some made up ponyland, this is facts.
Sure, let me just go do M+ in my PvP build on my Hpally, do you know what happens? I cause multiple wipes, and I get booted from the team, because I am a liability. I am not useful. And people want to progress their characters, they want to clear m+ on time.
People like to say that there are more RPG-like choices to be had in Classic. That is a lie forged by nostalgia goggles, biases, and generally, not using your brain. People demand you to be X spec for raids. People don’t invite some classes and specs because of how hardly they underperform. And those who play cross-content, or play many specs are discouraged from having their fun, because of the massive 50g barrier for a respec.
Have you seen ANY guild on Classic that runs more than 2-3 boomkins or retris in their raids? No, even in a very casual guild, that barely happens, because filling your raid with warriors, mages and rogues is infinitely better to clear content. And people do that despite the fact that Classic is laughably easy.
It will, because Covenant abilities are strong abilities. Why should I invite a Hunter with Resonating Trap to a high m+ key when Death Chakram is infinitely better? I want to do my key on time, and preferably, with multiple chests. A lot of people won’t invite people if their class is underperforming. That’s a fact.
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Btw the covenant abilities isn’t just a mere 5% they are literally insane. Total game changer.
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I so can’t wait for people to start crying again, just like they did in Legion and BfA beginning. The same people who defend these broken and horrible systems are the same ones who complained about:
- alt unfriendliness
- multiple spec unfriendliness
- must log in daily Systems
- not being invited to pugs because their class is underperforming
- their stuff being constantly rebalanced, which usually ends in a nerf into oblivion
- certain items being a mandatory requirement to even be invited to clear content
- and all of these were from the top of my head.
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That’s wrong. People know what they want but they are devided in different groups that enjoy different aspects of the game. Everyone may play WoW different and enjoy it in his/her own way. People know their talents as well but different talent builds are used in different content. You use different spec for arenas, rbgs, raids and m+. Covenant choice is like a talent build but one that you cannot change. So by choosing certain covenant you will be punished by not being able to do high end level of other covenant. I don’t know if you are high end arena, mythic raider, high end M+ player but it doesn’t work the way you described. I can guess rather not high end arena player as you rather wouldn’t play goblin. People are min maxing if you like it or not and most of the times they know more about mechanics than devs who created them. That’s why they create unique broken builds like Glimmer of Light one.
Instead of these covenant spells having 1-2 extra rows of talents give you flexibility to change them whenever you do a different content and allows you to try different aspects of the game. Maybe you were a rider but in the middle of a season you are tired of rading and Rogue’s playstyle in PvP gives you more fun than ever. You’re performing well and feel that you can get your gladiator. Too bad then you picked a covenant that is better for raiding and guys picked other Rogue with better covenant and you are benched. You can only play on low end arena bracket where people don’t care.
I want again to feel this freedom like in Cata/MoP when I could play whatever I want without being limited by a stupid choice that is like a burden I have to deal with till the end of expansion.
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Final decision made by blizz, even if they consider the feedbacks or not, one side will suffer greatly.
That side either adapt or unsub, question is, which one will be the bigger.
I agree with you on that, and that’s also how I play. After re-reading my initial post , I don’t think I did a good job of getting my point across. I was more thinking about, and I’m gonna use my WW as an example here, using WDP vs Serenity. Serenity worked for me better in PvP, even though most people used WDP. There are alot of people who play this game who would insult/decline based on such an example. That’s what I really meant.
I also can agree that doing group content, where people rely on you, you shouldn’t pick talents that serve no purpose for that content.
I do still think that having impactful choice, isn’t bad for the game. But perhabs that is just for how I play it. Perhabs I’m the one looking at it in a vacuum.
Alts =/= mains you are not supsotu have alts at same level as main
Wasnt case.
No you dont thats like your choice.
Get guild or create your own group and stop being lazy.
I understand your concerns, it just goes to show how different we can sometimes look at aspects of the game. I can understand that if you want to reach your goal in arena, you want all the tools available and not being stuck with a choice you feel won’t help you.
Thanks for explaining your point of view, I can understand where you’re coming from now.
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I do the same thing on my paladin with Unbreakable Spirit vs Cavalier. I pick Cavalier because it makes the class much less wheelchair, and I get a powerful escape / rush option.
The reason why this is good is because there is a bit of variety to choose from, and not something that you are 100% locked into. However, with the Covenants, these are going to be super strong abilities, that are all specialized for specific parts of the game. Again, Hunter is a great example for this. You pick Death Chakram for M+ reasons. It’s a powerful AoE ability that only gets stronger the more targets you hit. But then you also want to push CR. Well, good luck, because you are lacking Resonance Trap, which especially on MM will be a super powerful ability (because of the extra range you are getting from Mastery). Not only will Death Chakram be a mediocre ability, becuase at most you only hit 3 targets, you will also not be able to effectively chase down ppl without shooting through LoS.
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Thank you. This is exactly the same thing like the race aspect I mentioned. You might be an amazing player. You may know every aspect of Rogue but by not playing orc as being horde you make yourself handicapped. Rogue is burst oriented spec so Blood Fury helps bursting people down in Kindey and Toughness covers one of the biggest Rogue weaknesses - vulnerability to stuns. You may not need thesr racials because you enjoy the game in your way but someone like me is already limited to Orc in Horde and if I want to reach goals I need to play Orc or I’m making it harder.
My goal in SL is to finally get gladiator and quit the game. Also mate believe me that 90% of cases people are <1550 exp in arenas becauese:
-they have wrong talents
-they don’t use their tools as their should
-they don’t know PvP mechanics that you cannot learn from default Blizz UI
-they play wrong comps
I took 1550 exped H Pala from my guild in season 2 and made him duelist as I helped him with these things. Most of low rated players just don’t know them because they know how to dps/heal in PvE and they are good at it. PvP and PvE playstyle are usually 180 degrees different.
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How many times are they going to fail the faction system?
Sure, they might not be, and that is fine, but when you are supposed to push your artifact, get your azerite gear, get your essences, get your corruptions, do your cloak grind, do weekly chests, get mandatory PvE items for PvP, people who want to do alts are going to be extremely frustrated, because a lot of people want to push their alt’s power, and with the amount of grind, it starts to become more of a job, rather than something you can just log on and do.
What happened to just only needing to be max level, and farming gear?
It very much was. You need multiple different pieces of Azerite Gear for different specs, you need multiple different essences for different specs because there are spec specific essences, and in Legion, you needed to push different artifacts, while it was already tough to push just one, because of how long the grind is. Also, don’t forget Legiondaries.
Sure, but a lot of players play to progress their power. If you don’t log in every day to optimally farm your azerite, your essences, your reputations, your god knows what, you will start to fall behind the power curve. This was especially relevant in early BfA, where you were locked out from using Azerite traits if you had a high ilvl piece, because your neck wasn’t there yet.
On Argent Dawn, I was one of the first to hit neck lvl20. And I still could not use the last 2 traits of my 370 ilvl piece. Using lower ilvl pieces was literally better.
Again, what happened to just logging on, playing the game, and being rewarded with gear?
Mate, in a lot of progression guilds people were benched because of how hardly their class underperformed. This was the case in all expansions, and most hardly in Classic.
Remember in cata, when in progression guilds, healers were getting benched because they weren’t disc priests? That was because the content was so tough, even in Normal difficulty, that Discs priests were literally mandatory to be able to ignore certain mechanics, or to even be able to survive those mechanics.
Remember in Classic (despite how laughably easy the game is) that Retris are only invited if they have Nightfall? Because they are so underperforming, that swinging Nightfall is the only way to make them viable in a raid group. Or boomkins, who are literally only invited for the memes…
Remeber in BfA s1 and s2, Rshams were getting benched, because they were so weak, and people took priests instead?
This happens even among the “casuals”, not just the top 1%.
People want to be able to clear content, and not being stuck there forever, because their group is weak.
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The last time this rogue did arena was in TBC, and I don’t really play it anymore. It’s just my oldest character from TBC. Racials are helpfull yes, the stun reduction on orc is great for shamans, but even a Goblin’s racial can save your life. I do still believe that all races are viable though. On Alliance, it seems to be dwarf/dark iron dwarf for ele, while I prefer KT for the racial. I haven’t seen any guide that even mentions going KT, but like I said, I love it.
Even though I’m not much interested in arena myself, I think that understanding your talents, and what works for you is the key to succes. Sometimes the choice is easy when it comes to what comps you face, other times it’s about choosing what works for you (such as my serenity example)
Dwarves are good vs Assa Rogues because every 2 min. they can remove all bleeds, silences and poisons with racials. It means they can counter 1 Vendetta attempt because Rogue needs to reapply everything losing a lot of damage. It was good vs Ferals but we all know how good Feral is now…
Yup, happened exactly to me in Uldir NORMAL as resto shaman. And i can not even blame them. Without me more chance to progress.
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So now we will have to make a choice with covenant based on 3 things, main ability, minor ability and legendary?
This seems absolutely horrible if you have to hard grind to swap.
If you only engage in 1 type of content, then you can probably get away with just 1 covenant being good, but in the likely case that you both do raiding and M+, then you’re probably screwed.
Especially since the good ST option (which will be for raiding) will almost never be the go to for M+, unless the others are so much worse that the ST one is anyways lockin.
Honestly i think they should make the abilities something you grind a bit for, but then have unlocked like a talent option, and then cosmetics are the thing that gets reset if you switch covenant.
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Until proved overwise these are just Thorgast perks you get as you climb the tower for the duration of the run. Classes too have some datamined broken af perks (like a god damn immunity when havoc cast eye beam… 100% sure this is just for thorgast, you don’t give an immunity to an interrupt-able ability)
We’ll get to test the tower in the next few weeks, don’t go crazy yet over what should be nothing but temporary buffs in a rogue like dungeon.
So far i haven’t read about a single daily content tho, any source about that or that’s just speculation for now ? There’ll be a so called WQ 2.0 but no emissary and we dunno how it’ll be implemented either.
Why “now” ? This was presented like that at blizzcon, there’s nothing new or unexpected here beside the covenant legendaries.
And you forgot what could maybe be the most impactful part of the covenants : Soulbinds : 3 talent trees + socketable talents (conduits).
There’s a lot of moving parts and unknown features for the time being, don’t speculate about balance and viability before seeing what it looks like as a whole.
Or you could’ve a talent tree for each kind of content which would still allow you to be viable as you can swap these talent trees like talents. This is nothing but speculation at this stage tho, just like any discussion about shadowlands balance.
Point is : We don’t have the full context, there are legit concerns about being locked in a covenant but for the time being it’s impossible to guess how unbalanced the covenants will be. Complain all you want and feel free to give your feedback but keep in mind that what we currently see is but the tip of the iceberg.