[SPOILER] 9.1 Tyrande cinematic

Lore Story
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Those are not their words. Those are the summarized words of MMO-Champion’s news page, based on a written article by AusGamers where they interviewed Ion Hazzikostas.
So if we’re going to quote Blizzard and Ion Hazzikostas specifically, we should at least extend the courtesy to quote directly and from the source. So I will do that since you did not:

“We had the sense that players would be contending with Sylvanas for a while now, that they would be delving into and learning more about the nature of the Maw, and the Jailer’s power in this first major content update,” Ion says. “But, the specific details of the twists and turns the story is going to take, who the bosses in the Raid are, even some of the major narrative moments that we’re going to see play out in the coming weeks are things that came together at the end of last year, and the beginning of this year.”

“Some of it is seeing how the stories resonated with the community, with our players, as they were delving into it,” Ion adds. “One of the great things about working on a live game like this and this iterative content cycle is that we can see what players are excited about, they’re confused about, want to learn more about, what preconceptions or ideas they have about the way things are going, and pivot to make sure that what we’re doing is going to hit the mark.”

World of Warcraft - Our Big Interview with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas - AusGamers.com

And what Ion actually says is very different from whatever mess of a bullet point summary that MMO-Champion tried to present.

Don’t use MMO-Champion as your source information. Use the actual source.

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I think it’s just ridiculous how Tyrande didn’t even WOUND Sylvanas? She was about to KILL HER, ffs. The plot armor is disgusting at this point. What bothers me is that EVERY single time Sylvanas gets away and faces absolutely no consequences. Everything goes according to plan! Even Lich King lost from time to time or not everything went smoothly (Light’s Hope, Wrathgate). And Sylvanas is never even close to losing. And every single time she has to say some snarky stuff just to show how “cOoL” she is (yuck). This is just laughable at this point.

The visuals were top level, as always.

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The bit I quoted was in the same text you posted. First paragraph.

And what Ion says further sustains what you call the bullet point:

The paragraph above reinforces the idea that far from having an actual story planned out, their current way to go is to test the water with players and basically make up the story on the go depending on their reaction and what writers think they’ll consider cool.

Either way, the whole fallacy of them having a plan keeps on getting debunked with each passing day.
Only this time, we have an actual employee acknowledging such.

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The bit you quoted was without context, without source, and you didn’t credit it to Ion.

That’s a huge no no and all my elementary school alarm bells go off. That crap wouldn’t even pass for proper journalistic etiquette on Fox News, let alone here!

So that’s definitely not the kind of information you need to present me with if you want to try and undermine all that I have written for reasons that are unknown to me.

And do not for a second try to pass it off as the same text as I posted. Only because I knew the actual interview of that tiny quote of yours could I add context to it, because you sure as hell didn’t provide it. You just used it as a faux imperial fact to base your opinion around and undermine what I had written. Bad form man, bad form.

Sure. I certainly hope and believe and know that Blizzard are flexible with the story and adapt it on the fly, and that they are critical enough of their own material and adhere to an iterative approach, in an effort to make it the best it can be.

I know Metzen spoke of them doing that with Bolvar, deciding that he should be The Lich King instead of Tirion, because of the emotional response players had to him after the Wrathgate.

I respect that kind of change. I like it. And I encourage Blizzard to do it when they see fit.

Does it mean that the entire WoW storyline is decided on a whim and Blizzard don’t have any clue as to where it’s heading or what they’re doing? No. We know for a fact that they’re always an expansion ahead, because the content production schedule demands that. And they probably conceptualize beyond that as well, because why not?

So I certainly think that they plot out their narratives in advance and know where they want to take the story in broad strokes. Then they may change a raid boss or a questline or something like that every now and then, but the ability to consistently produce new expansions in a timely fashion demands that the over-arcing narrative runs ~2 years ahead internally at Blizzard compared to what we’re experiencing in the game.

And in the more recent expansions they seem to choose an approach where one expansion leads naturally into the next one, so I choose to believe that’s going to be the way the upcoming expansion comes about as well. And I think it’s reasonable to make the guesstimate that all this Elune foreshadowing is leading up to the story of the next expansion.

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I’m astonished by just how bad this is.

Really? They took Super Tyrande’s power away right at the 11th hour? I mean really? Halfway through the cinematic, I actually thought to myself quickly - OK Tyrande’s suddenly become one of my favourite characters. And then straight back to being poorly written trash again seconds later at the end.

It’s like they’re putting a purposeful effort into writing the worst story they can. I truly have no more words.

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What’s with this whole physical injuries obsession? Tyrande might have not scarred her but she did hurt her. Her overblown pride took hit when she was beaten in a duel and then stomped into the ground and almost killed while trying to flee. But the real pain was the Nathanos news. When Saurfang scarred her it simply made her angry. When she learned of Nathanos fate you could see she got really hurt. No battle wound would do as much as those few words. Not only someone dear to her was now gone but also, if she really follows Zoval because she believes in his vision, she will now start to doubt him and herself and all they did even more. Crushing someones whole world’s view, that’s true pain!

Seems her mask of ruthless villain is starting to crack. Beneath she might be the same overly depressed undead, constantly crying about how whole world is unfair to her, she was since wc3. A perfect victim for some charismatic cult leader like Zoval.

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That would only matter if the context or the source changed the meaning of said quote.

Neither does.

I didn’t paraphrase it. Expanding on the rest of his answer does not change the meaning of the bit I referenced.

The bit of text I referred to, has Ion downright stating that major narrative developments are being decided on the go depending on the playerbase reactions.

That should dispel any notion about them having these planned out in advance (something people should’ve been already doing the second the first batch of retcons started flowing our way).

Assuming most of this was planned in advance, when they even had to retcon and adjust narrative pieces as recent as the novel that introduced the previous expansion, is delusional.

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I’m just going to outright disagree with you on everything. I respect your opinion on the matter and you’re certainly entitled to it, but I think what you’re saying is wrong on every level and you’re extrapolating and misinterpretating in ways that scream confirmation bias, and I don’t care for that kind of discussion. It’s rather meaningless to me.

Again, you’re certainly entitled to the opinion that the story is poop and Blizzard don’t have a clue as to what they’re doing, but I don’t share that viewpoint at all. I’ll stick with my initial thoughts on the matter. :slight_smile:

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I believe Elune denied Tyrande’s offering of her life for Sylvanas
My interpretation is: Elune doesn’t want Tyrande dead, but knows Tyrande will likely let it come that far on a very short notice (or potentially simply didn’t want to risk it in the first place)
Knowing Ysera was nearby to intervene (or maybe even sending Ysera to her to intervene) she nerfed Tyrande then sent in Ysera to preserve Tyrande

Elune’s power was obviously every effective on domination power because she just shrugged off those chains that gave Bolvar a hard time

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I didn’t say that the story is poop (although I do note a notable quality drop as of recent developments).

What I’m saying is that the fallacy about having any of this be something that was planned in advance, has been consistently and repeatedly exposed with every new info we are given.

We know about retcons destined to adjust previous events in order to make them fit the current development, and we know about certain knee jerk reactions regarding the narrative arch’s of certain characters (choosing to spare Denathrius or turn Bwonsamdi into a more recurrent protagonist) because of player feedback.

And now we have the most visible head of the game outright stating that major narrative moments were decided at the end of last year beginning of this one.
Putting extra emphasis on the fact that the current story team is on the lookout to pivot their story in any direction they want depending on how they see the playerbase react to it.

Yeah, I’ll repeat, that the whole notion about them planning this all along, is now patently false.

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Yes and I am going to reject that outright for the reasons that I stated above (and more), and it falls on deaf ears to repeat it to me. I simply don’t attribute any validity to it, sorry.
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter, but I’m not agreeable to it at all.
But nice chat.

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It feels like Blizzard is allergic to giving the Night elves something satisfying. At this point I can’t help but wonder that Danasuer got molested as a kid by purple skinned people. it would explain a lot.

Slightly more serious, the whole Night warrior storyline has so far been for absolutely nothing. It has acomplished nothing of value, and now it will soon be diluted and in effect be removed. And with that, the hope for Night elf catharsis grows ever smaller.

Shame on Blizzard’s writers. Shame.

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Who sits on the Frozen Throne doesn’t strike me as a small change. It relates to the climax of an entire expansion and it was something Blizzard changed on a whim. Does it matter whether Tirion or Bolvar sits on the Throne?

Bolvar was an icon for the Alliance and seemed to be generally well-liked by the playerbase. His death at the Wrathgate had meaning. Character deaths in stories should mean something, and for Alliance players it meant real loss. The Lich King and the Scourge weren’t just talk – they just killed a beloved and important figure of your faction*! But Bolvar’s death and it’s impact on the narrative, as well as the emotional investment of the players, was undermined and cheapened by Blizzard’s decision to bring him back. I honestly think I would have had a better opinion of the ending of WLK had it been Tirion who ended up on the throne. The whole “there must always be a Lich King” spiel never appealed to me, but if anyone had to do it why not Tirion? He seemed as devout as they come. And by making him the new Lich King they wouldn’t have to ruin the narrative significance of Bolvar’s death.

*In hindsight I guess it was the Forsaken that killed him but my point remains the same.

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I’m not sure what the point of discussion is. I used the example to make the point that Blizzard does iterate on their story ideas if they feel particularly inspired to do so, and that I don’t mind them doing that – the results tend to be cool. And with regards to the previous poster I simply disagreed on his desire to extrapolate that point to conclude that Blizzard don’t have any story direction or planning what-so-ever. That struck me as ridiculous.

With regards to The Lich King being Tirion instead of Bolvar? I honestly don’t know. Tirion’s character progression did lend itself to him being The Lich King and the narrative would have been simpler for a lot of players if the story played out that way. But I can see why Blizzard went with Bolvar. He is just really cool and there’s some poetic justice in someone losing all of their identity so they can bear the burden of a new one. And I think Blizzard underscored that really well with his visual appearance. And I think the symbolism resonated much stronger in the community than if they had picked Tirion. With him it’s a bit too much on the nose with the noble sacrifice.

Hindsight and what if… it’s tricky. :yum:

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Ok unpopular opinion here, I think Tyrande not being sacrificed was fan service.

They had to add some sort of excuse mystery to the plot to make it happen. It was coming you guys, whoever thought Tyrande was going to die was just fooling himself. They couldn’t do that after Teldrassil.

The visuals of the cinematic were stunning though and I’m happy I got a Tyrande-Sylvanas duel even if it ended with no resolution (was expected).

A bit anime style but I’ll take it.

A few lore contradictions, like Chrono stated above and overcomplicating the story when it’s already confusing as it is.

I mean cmon, I just wish they told us something already. I’m tired of guessing and theorizing.

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I know right, not only that but we know close to NOTHING about it’s implications on other elves either.

In lore and quests it is said that kaldorei npcs (or characters) get the nightwarrior eyes by A) Either witnessing the ritual or B) Fighting in Darkshore under the moon (thats an actual quote from a quest.

But we know next to NOTHING what it means! Is it just a change of eyes? Do they get minor boosts? Or does that make them any closer to Elune or Tyrande?

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My point was that it does matter who sits on the Frozen Throne. Much of Tirion’s character was explored throughout WLK – much more so than Bolvar. In comparison, Bolvar was a relatively blank slate. I think becoming “jailor of the damned” would have made for a better end for Tirion’s arc than Bolvar’s. Bolvar already had a good ending to his character arc. The ultimate fate of Tirion’s character was to unceremoniously die at the start of Legion and then become a glorified beacon for the one of the legendary Paladin quests. At that point in the story I couldn’t help but feel that Tirion was rather… irrelevant.

I don’t think there is an established methodology for how to write for an MMORPG, but in general when it comes to writing it’s better to be consistent.

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There is no necessity to make things personal. You’ve been warned to be careful with your expectations. Take it or ignore it - whatever you prefer.

oof

When Tyrande said “my life for hers” what did Elune do? That’s right - gave power for the anime jump.

Voices of the Afterlives panel attributed it to the devs liking the performance of the voice actors.

There is a conspiracy that after WoW “dismatled” Everquest he worked on for some time, he now tries to pay back to WoW success.

afaia it’s by design. I saw a quote from supposedly pre-WoW Danuser’s blog that states:

I think the role of the content designer should be to provide compelling hooks for player storytelling. And by compelling, I mean both interesting and well-executed. Players should be drawn in by the quest and incentivized to undertake it, but the quest itself should be mere manipulation to get players interacting. It might be through cooperation, competition, or some kind of symbiotic relationship where both sides benefit in different ways.

Got it from https://ilkohall.blogspot.com/2021/02/shadowlands-empty-manipulations-with-no.html

Looks like the point is just to keep the target audience engaged by endless stream of “mysteries” while pay off is not necessary.

The story as I see it is the endless stream of cliffhangers. It’s banking on “wait and see” only to add another cliffhanger after and avoid criticism with “the story is not over yet” (as if we’re given the date of when it’ll be over).

Combined with retcons and narrative contradictions it either offers the endless source of material for speculation to those who like the guessing game, or devoids the story of meaning and value for those who cares about the time / effort invested in learning about the thing.

Possibly nothing because there were also named NPCs in the area during the event and none of them have the eyes changed, e.g. Malfurion.

gl hf

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If someone makes a direct reply to me with the sole intention of trying to convince me that everything I’ve written is false, by using deceitful means like dishonest quotation, then yeah, I’m going to ramp that up to a personal matter or whatever you want to call it.
But it has nothing to do with you, so you can just pass right along.

Do I know you?! Don’t think so. Mind your own.

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That’s certainly one way to participate in a thread on public forum.

gl hf