State of rogues and going into TWW

Classes Rogue
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Hello my fellow rogues, I would like to discuss the current state of rogues and what I think are the core issues with our beloved class.

Last time I’ve played a rogue was in Season 1 of DF, played Outlaw and Sub. I tried to play the rogue these days and oh boy I feel like there is so much missed opportunity and QOL stuff that needs to happen…

I’m not a cutting edge player, I used to raid hardcore from vanilla to woltk with my rogue but now I’m a casual player playing 2-3 hours daily and not every day doing only m+ around 3,3k+ rio so I have a fairly good game knowledge.

In no particular order, lets get into it what I think has to change and what is not good:

CLASS IDENTITY / FANTASY:

  1. The class really lacks some visual identity and class flavour

  2. I fell like all the abilities share same 2-3 animations

CLASS TREE / ABILITIES / ROTATIONS:

  1. Slice and dice - Its a relic of the past and has to go, all rogue specs are bloated with abilites. Having talents that makes you press SND once and forgetting about it just proves the point that SND shouldnt exist in the first place

  2. Cold Blood - is this really worth it being a capston in this day and age? Has to go or needs to be reworked

  3. Thistle Tea - bring back decent energy regen to our specs and remove this, no need and also just another ability that adds bloat

  4. Shadow Dance in class tree - removing this in alpha is a great step in the right direction, having SD in the class three was terrible since we have all 3 specs revolving around it.

  5. Removing Nightstalker - also a great thing, it only promotes degenerate gameplay with dps windows insde dps windows which is really not fun and just adds more artifical complexity

  6. Button bloat - for example, do we really need 6-7 rotational buttons as Assasination plus 3 cds which we need to manage within damage windows? ( getting better in Alpha with nightstalker gone tho)

  7. 1. Hyper fixation on unnecessary “complex” rotations and damage windows that dont feel that hard but just unfun and tedious to play

HERO TALENTS:

  1. I’m sorry rogue devs but to me all three hero specs looks like they were made with chat GPT.

  2. All three spec look so uninspired and just unfun with serious lack of class flavour.

  3. Take a look at paladin templar or warlock diabolist for example it feels like we are playing two different games.

TLDR

I could ramble on few more things but simply I’m tired and just wanna enjoy my rogue, but after i play something like a Ret pala and come back to the rogue it feels like such a chore to play…

I really wish that rogue devs would start communicating what are their plans for rogue in TWW, do we get any QOL changes that community is asking or anything at all just give us some communication back.

EDIT: No ide why is the post on my alt drud that i didnt play in like 12 years :smiley:

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I am 100% in agreement with everything, especially with the disteltea/energy issue.

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  1. I still dont get why Pistol Shot has to be it’s own button…
    Just make it so that it replaces Sinister Strike, when it procs.

  2. I have, and probably will never pick Cold Blood as a outlaw rogue, and they need to either make it a mid level talent, remove it, or rework it.

  3. Thistle Tea should increase our energy regen by x% amount over 30seconds instead of a sudden burst of energy.

  4. Why, oh why have outlaws been shoehorned into a invis dependent opener? The whole reason behind outlaw existing is, that WE DONT DO MUCH WITH INVIS. If we wanted to play around invis timewindows, we would play subtlety…

  5. The Hero talent trees are a joke. Fatebounds capstone talent is ridiculous, and needs a hard rework.
    Fatebound should give Finishers stacking buffs, depending on the amount of matching coins you have:
    3+ Finishers hit all enemies for 50% of damage dealt
    4+ Finishers have a chance to strike a second time for 150% damage dealt
    5+ Finishers critical strikes deal cosmic damage
    6+ Finishers flips three additional coins and rolls the Dice for you

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I dislike the tier mog for season 1, it doesn’t feel rogue like what so ever. I haven’t had chance to play rogue in TWW yet cause no alpha or beta access. But stealth needs looking at, in current game its broken.

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Agree, though I don’t think it’s the matter of urgency.

  1. Yes. Delete SnD, it’s stupid ability that’s no fun.
  2. Agree. It’s just too simple and bad.
  3. I would say that they should rework it somehow.
  4. SD is gone, which is good.
  5. To be honest, Nightstalker together with Master Assassin made Vanish an offensive cooldown. I think that these both abilities should go.
  6. 100%, spec has too many buttons.
  7. Agree! The complexity doesn’t mean that the spec performs better, I’d even say it’s other way aroud - it performs worse. Because it’s not as forgiving as other and we all know that in this game complexity =! better performance.
    There was a time when Assassination was more complicated than other DPS specs and the damage itself was laughable.
    What’s the point of making a spec MUCH worse to play and giving it the same(or even worse) DPS? It’s totally senseless.

Deathstalker looks like something made 5 minutes before they presented it to “high-ups” and then they said “ok, just do whatever” because they don’t have time and will to check it out.
It feels like someone just started to play rogue class and decide to add some random things without deviating from the consequences(such as RIDICULOUS synergy and combos that makes the spec almost unplayable and totally unfun, like avoiding using Shadowstrikes as Subtlety because of the Darkest Night talent and how it cooperates with Marks).

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The question is, do our rogue community want to take a more narrow path in class identity, like in Combat > Pira… Outlaw transition, or to give all 3 specs more wider identity to choose from.
Personally, I would like have a more-choice path.

I. Assasination
Bleeds, poisons master is wide enough for me (ninja, agent, executioner, mercenary etc. - it’s all fit in imo). In this one I would rather focus on give as an equal competetive choices of burst, dot/sustain, single and multitarget builds, and only poisons / only bleeds specialisation profile.

II. Subtlety
From technical perspective, imo the spec is balanced - it is specializing in single target dmg, it is ok in multitarget dmg (the master in multitarget should be Pir… Outlaw).

Considering the spec history, the dmg output could be more various tought than only shadow, but this is my personal thing. If I could choose between more ways to ignore opponent’s dmg, make him/her more vulnerable to my type of dmg (white / shadow) or choose to enhance my shadow dmg output, I would be satisfied.

One thing that’s bug me is discarded Sub1h/1h profile - I want to hold again a 1h weapon other than dagger in my mainhand like the old days. Some talents enhancing this playstyle would also be cool (thanks to Hemo, Ghostly Strike in the past).
If they want to make Sub only daggers spec, like in the spec’s description, then why keeping a possibility to hold 1h weapon in off hand? Get rid of it totally or bring back 2x 1h as earlier.

III. Pir… Outlaw
Oh gosh. When playing this spec, don’t force me to be a pirate. Assasination, Subtlety and Piracy - that’s the proper way of naming our specs. If Outlaw tought, a specalist in toe-to-toe fight then, in short:

  • Pistol Shot / (hand?)Crossbow Shot to choose from (with different sounds!)
  • Make a an animation of Sinister Strike to work with other weapons as well, and not only swords (take a closer look how your hand is turn wierdly when using f.ex. fists).
  • Make a Roll The Bones optional or exchangable for medium flat dmg talent, f.ex. Suprise Attacks.
  1. Agree to have to many buttons to press. A passive / active SnD to choose would be nice.
  2. Maybe reworked to be more useful in modern days like Premediation?
  3. It would be nice if not another button to press.
  4. Agree
  5. Meh, it could be here, some variety to the game mechanic.
  6. Agree
  7. Agree - Demon Hunters showed us, then more simply and still interesting is possible (no to the point of DH in Rogue case ofc, but you get my point).

Agree. I’m a little dissapointed with current Hero Specs ideas for rogues.
First thing - the proper idea. We have so much iconic factions rogue archetypes to choose from in this world:

Neutral:

  • The Black Prince (Wrathion bodyguards)
  • Shado-Pan
  • Ravenhold
  • Booty Bay pirates
  • Uncrowned
  • Freehold
  • Mechagon? (a good way to create some tinker depended rogue)
  • maybe Violet Eye?? (a good way to give a rogue some magic)

Faction linked (we could get 1 Horde, 1 Alliance, 1 Neutral):

  • Deathstalkers
  • SI:7
  • Wardens

God, so many to choose from. I wouldn’t believe a rogue didn’t want to have iconic abilites linked to some of the factions above!

Second thing - the mechanic. If it is a hero class, why do not get something flashy? A rogue with 2h katana / 2h weapon? A rogue with bombs and traps? A rogue with 2 pistols / crossbows? A rogue with mail armor? So simple yet so deserve to be named “hero spec”, huh? And that really could be made with little effort to be balanced (pistols/crossbows with dmg of 1h weapons, mail armor but with Camouflage instead of Stealth for balance etc.).
We’re so versatile compairing to other classes, like nobody else we could get something special here… And we get just another layer of talent tree with more Plague / Vulnerable / Percent more DMG. It’s ok, just don’t named it “hero-epic-new-expansion-mindblowing-that-rip-your-skull-off talents”.

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I also miss combat, you are not alone…
We will never know, why they did not put a talent in that basically sacrificed RtB for a better Slice and Dice. Maybe flat damage increase on SnD or increased energy regen (like a small Adrenaline Rush that we keep up).

Further flavour for hero classes:

  • Hidden Circle (Alliance)
  • Red Hand
  • Defias Brotherhood
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