Subtlety rework inc in Shadowlands

Classes Rogue
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Apparently Ion Hazzikostas has confirmed in a german interview that Subtlety rogue will get a rework back to its original fantasy.
From the US rogue forums:

Now I will share my own feedback what I loved about Sub, as a 15 year longtime Rogue veteran. I encourage everyone who loves Sub to leave their own feedback. This will be our only chance to return it to its former glory.

I played Sub alot during Vanilla, Cataclysm and specifically WoD where it was probably the most fleshed out Subtlety we’ve ever seen, with a much more intensive toolkit. I have always considered Subtlety to be the higher skill cap playstyle of our specs.

So where did it go wrong? It is in my opinion not necessarily the flavour rework thats the problem (turning the spec into Shadow flavour), but more so the gameplay mechanics that left our toolkit very empty, going from the highly skill cap playstyle into a simplified former of itself.

I forward you to this video for a quick way to get my point across:

I will go back all the way to WoD, where many rogues complained about Backstab positional requirements. This came mostly from a PvE perspective, where solo capability is sacrificed due to its positional requirement. However, removing it has done more harm to the identity of Subtlety.

Removing Gouge, another very iconic Rogue skill that gave flavour to our toolkit, and enhanced Backstab by itself. Gouge + Backstab were iconic brothers, and complimented eachother very well. Remember the whole ‘‘Rogues do it from behind!!!’’??? Well, we unfortunately no longer do… yes Backstab had a positional requirement, and a very high energy cost… however, this sacrifice gave a higher reward to risk ratio for the spec. Allowing fun talents such as Imp Backstab + 30% Crit chance.

Skills such as Preperation amplified the higher reward to risk ratio, it made the player think more and make strategic decisions. Preperation amplified the entire toolkit almost one can say.

Ghostly strike is another very flavourfull skill that fit the Subtlety theme. It served as a defensive reactive skill that mimicked the evasive nature of Sub with a + dodge chance for + seconds on a short cooldown.

With the high energy cost of 60 energy and also its positional requirement reinstated, Improved Backstab could make a possible return.

One of the positives that Subtlety at the very least maintained in Legion, was Death from Above. Not much I can say really except that it was FUN!
DFA comeback would be nice imo.

I have mixed feelings about Premeditation. I think the bloat that it adds was not worth it, but what instead could be done is baking it into Symbols of Death. But I have no real feelings towards this skill tbh.

Shadow Reflection was hands down my favourite CD to press during WoD as a Subtlety Rogue. I doubt there will be many if any rogues that could disagree here.

Shadow Dance needs to feel impactfull again, somehow. I’m not sure if its the right decision to remove charges completely, as some player seem to enjoy its symmetry with Deepening Shadows. But I’m afraid, there is no other way… Shadow Dance on 1 min CD just seems right to me. I don’t want to give feedback only to dissapoint many other rogues that perhaps do enjoy it. Maybe we need to come up with ideas what can be done, because I have no other solution that I can think of.

Now comes the painfull subject for many. Shadow Strike versus Ambush. Why does Outlaw out of all specs have our iconic skill Ambush + Gouge? This has striked me odd since a long time, and I have never come to the forums to express my feelings, untill now.
I know there are rogues that enjoy Shadow Strike, but then we need to compromise and increase its energy cost and mimmick it like Ambush serving the same purpose.

-Backstab needs to go back to 60 energy
-Gouge needs to return, complimenting Backstab
-Preperation with a possible return for Subtlety
-Ghostly Strike comeback
-Hemorrhage for players that want a more ‘‘relaxed’’ energy spender
-Death from Above needs to return
-Shadow Reflection needs to be our iconic CD
-Shadow Dance made more impactfull, like it used to (Back to 1 charge 1 min cd?)
-Redesign Shadow Strike (or possibly return Ambush)

I’l add some more if anything comes to my mind. I encourage everyone to join into the discussion.
Let our voices be heard!

5 Likes
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I like it. Makes a sub rogue all about their toolkit and positioning rather than buff stacking and cs machine. All i want to add is - if we’re losing our honor talents altogether - i would miss shadowy duel, it’s a really cool spell.

2 Likes
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I wouldn’t get too excited just yet. Remember when they gave us “ the last dance “ and then they nerfed it?

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Maybe my experiance is not from vanilia, but from i see ambush and gouge are heartbroken, give it back plz

1 Like
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I don’t understand why rogues keep saying sub is about buff stacking, i never felt that i needed to stack any buffs at all with my sub rogue, just needed to keep shadow dance up as much as possible, any buffs after that didn’t matter in the slightest.

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Bring back pre-zul sub rogue

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Are you… are you that dude who leveled a silly fat sub rogue just to prove a point about sub rogues being op op somehow? I don’t know what your deal is exactly but I’ll be damned if i don’t respect and admire your dedication! Can i have an autograph?

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For? It sucks with currently energy management of a spec. Return energetic stab art trait or SnD with energy regeneration passive then.

For?
It made sence only in combination with all damage buffs, which are not exist right now, or ure talking about pvp? But who cares about pvp now

For?
U know what, most fantastic feature of shadowstrike - it cant be dodged, parried or blocked. And thats make huge impact on a game.

Actually, none of rogue specs doesnt need to add/return any kind of defensive stuff. Its already pretty op compared to most specs.

2 Likes
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You do realize it’s exactly the same spell as old Ambush was with different icon and animation PLUS a teleport to target if used from Stealth ?

Useless now that Backstab can be used when in front of the enemy. You could change backstab back to the old design but then aside having two keybinds doing roughly the same stuff (and you can even macro it into one) it’s not accomplishing much.

Please no it’s horrible. An iconic CD that is insane in PvE but easy to defuse in PvP makes the spec garbage in one if the two. I’d like to play it in both. Also it contradicts this next sentence :

This would be a very good change imo, as Dance would once again become a CD and not a near permanent state. Such a change would make Dance the iconic CD, it would make Dance meaningful and it would force out of dance damage to be viable.

1 Like
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Imo Sub needs to be about BIIIIIG numbers and setup.

We already have two fast paced specs and since assassin got dumbed down even more, I would prefer for sub to be the spec that rewards players for planning ahead the most.

There are many ways to take advantage of your toolkit as a rogue, but as sub these aren’t as effective as they are for assassin/outlaw.

I really would love it if the sub rework changed the whole idea from a shadow dance playstyle we have now to a Burst > setup > burst. with how you setup stuff being super effective on your dps.

To give an example of what I mean is Valeera from HoTS with the Ambush build.

You jump in combat, dish some insanely high damage and then disengage, come back and start bursting.

I think it would be cool if a class/spec in the game isn’t always about hitting your target head on, sub rogues need to be truly subtle.

2 Likes
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I would like sub to have 2 things:
1.an insane damage ceiling to go along a punishing and complex rotation play style for both st and aoe.

  1. Using a giant 2 as a weapon for the big “ THUMP! “ damage and to add flavor to the rogue class.
1 Like
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Oh i agree with the op fully sub went from beeing this glorious spec that awarded u if u pulled it of correctly into a husk that its now

My opinion what needs to happen

Give us back our bleeds

Make bleeds advance again like they did in wod when u got a multistrike proc (i know there is no multistrike make it something else)

Bring back find weaknes like it was before so that we actualy play arround it and know how to utilize it

Shadowdance on 1 min cd with 1 stack and a 10 sec duration

If u want to implament something new to the class the way soulcapcitator worked in wod was perfect make it a sort of cd for rogues ?

there are more changes i would like to see but thats the jist of it

Somebody allrdy said make the spec feel like setup > burts > setup thats the way it supposed to be

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