Hear me out:
Subtlety has ZERO cleave damage.
Subtlety has extremely low AOE damage.
Therefore Subtlety should have the undisputed best single target damage in the game. Otherwise, what is the point of the spec?
(Note: PVE related)
And penguins should not over dps rogue!! but ā¦ this is shadowlands
I wouldnāt say zeroā¦ we got rupture XD but yeah I agree it is pretty much non existant.
This on the other hand is not true. Sub rogue AoE is arguably fine, but cannot be compared to e.g. a fire mage. Shuriken>black powder>shuriken>black powder spam is quite powerful seeing as it does decent damage and is not limited to any CDs. This becomes very apparent on e.g. the last trash mob before last boss in Halls of attonement. If you add shadowdance + symbols into your Shuriken+BlackP spam then our AoE damage is relatively good. This is especially true in larger pulls since our AoE is capped to 8 targets, rather than 5 which is the case for many other speccs.
However, Shuriken+BlackP spam is only ever viable in 4+ targer situations and arguably not even that, but rather 5+ target situations.
So, for Mythic+ sub rogue is probably better than what people give it credit forā¦ however, still nowhere near other classes.
On another note, 5+ AOE situations are not really relevant in Castle Nathria, where cleave damage is much more important. This ultimately means that sub rogues are pretty bad in Castle Nathria, since our single target damage is not very competitive either.
I therefore donāt think it has to be āthe undisputed best single target damage in the gameā, but our ST dmg shouldnāt be as low as it right now and should receive a considerable buff in order for sub rogue to be competitive in raiding as well.
Indeedā¦ that Sub rogue is dead last dps in Casle Nathria is very tragic.
Completely agreed. As stated by the guy above me, our 6+ pack aoe is actually pretty good. When you get to filling up entire combo points with one shuriken > black powder, ensuring symbols is on to crit & put on find weakness, shadow dance is on for extra damage, you will do max 11k~ aoe damage. This is actually decent. However when it comes ot single target, our dps SHOULD be insane (and one of the top) and this CAN be true in small fights (fighting pride, or a non tyr boss) as we can burst pretty well. But when it comes to longer drawn out fights (raids, tyrannical) we have to often hold off on using our shadow dance/symbols in order to line them up together for the most effect. Same as also ensuring to use SnD/Rupture while NOT inside shadow dance, as to maximise our eviscerate damage inside these windows. Even while performing all this perfectly, our single target dps is GARBAGE. This is a complete joke, and needs looking at asap. Why did they extend SnD duration for Assassination and not sub? Every evis used extends SnD? Could be one of the many small changes that could help us.
Akaaris giving 1 combo point from the extra shadowstrike (instead of 2-3 as was on PTR) could also make this a viable single target legendary. As it is akaaris is never the correct pick. Which is odd considering its a single target legendary on a single target spec.
If you check the to 10 dps in Castle Mages have 3 specs and Druid 2! And outlaw is no.11 as pure dps class. Shadowlands is the worst expansion on balancing classes and playstyle (with this new valor joke!). Only the lore save it for now.
yuup. mythic SLG as sub is pure pain. constantly an awkward number of mobs.
when evis was all our damage it was fine to have 3 or something, but so much of it is sitting in shadowstrike now that it just feels super ineffective if you donāt cap CP every shuriken storm.
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Yup, all we can resort to is keeping up rupture on all targets and shuriken storm instead of backstab when dealing with 2-3 targets.
At least this is what I do, since shuriken storm cost the same amount of energy as backstab and deal pretty much the same damage to 2 targets as a backstab does to 1 target with the benefit that you get an additional CPā¦ (when I am not in shadow dance)
Edit: Never done mythic Stone legion generals, I was referring to what I do on heroic here. Not even sure about the mechanics on SLG for mythicā¦ only got 4/10 before my guild stopped raiding 
almost constant 2 target cleave between boss and big add with common waves of 3 little adds, all adds are prio over boss and when any add drops low it does a scary thing, so they have to die 1 by 1 for the most part. basically you just cleave off an appropriate target. outlaw: the fight.
youād think sub would be great at finishing off each add as it drops low but the number of mobs is almost never enough for it to be effective, so either you very awkwardly aoe, very awkwardly funnel or just pretend itās single target. no matter what you do youāre comfortably at the bottom of the meter. donāt think i have ever felt as useless in a raid as i did when i tried to play sub on it.
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Lets continue to complain loud and maybe we will receive a buff like hunters & monks that blizz loves so much that they buff them a week after nerf. Even though they are doing completely fine still.
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Sub used to have amongst the best funnel damage in the game, hence Zul for reference. Sub is always going to be the awkward middle child where people will still claim for rogue to be good if you can master x-spec but Iām beginning to feel as if its just people are too afraid for the class to have any spec which you can argue would feel like a finished product.
Don;t think sub aoe is that bad to be honest.
But i have to wonder, isn;'t aoe genereally just better than cleave?
Like cleave is an ability like crash lightning as i understand, itās not multidotting like shadow priest, itās simply an aoe ability that does not do damage in a full circle, so wouldnāt a true aoe just be better?
For example as i understand, eye beam is a cleave, blade dance aoe, shuriken storm aoe, crash lightning cleave etcā¦
Cleave generally refers to what you just mentioned (a cone of damage), but more often referred to damage on 2-3 mobs/bosses at the same time in general. Rupture (rogue dot) is considered to be cleave, because you would keep it up on 2-3 targets. Affliction warlock were famous for cleave, rather than single target before malefic rupture, because their damage was best on 2-3 targets.
AoE concerns abilities that you would use on 4 maybe 5 targets and above, but you would never AOE on 2-3 targets, this would be considered cleave damage. Some abilities can be considered both cleave and AOE since they are used for both Single target, cleave and AOE. Eye beam is one of those examples.
Black powder on the other hand is just pure AOE and would never be used on 2-3 targets.
So, when sub rogues say that their cleave damage is bad and how much this affects sub rogue in Castle Nathria, it basically means that the increase in damage they have on 1, 2 or 3 targets is more or less the same.
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I think thatās a bit confusing, cleave should refer to abilities that deal damage in a cone, putting rupture on many mobs, that should be called multi dotting.
It just seems a bit convoluted.
Aoe, damage in a circle
cleave damage in a cone
Multidotting damage with multiple dots on multiple mobs.
It may be confusing, because you are right that:
Is how ācleaveā damage was referred to back in the days. However, the word has changed its meaning in wow, where it is also referring to damage on 2-3 targets in general.
The idea is that you primarily deal damage to one target, but you ācleaveā off to the other target as well, thus dealing damage to more than one target at the same time.
Sub rogues are incredibly bad at this.
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