Suggestion for changing Mythic +

Community General Discussion
1

The way mythic + works right now makes it a very toxic enviroment, specially for newcommers. After hours of hours you’ve finally managed to get that +10 key, you make a group out of carefully picked ppl, sadly the tank dc’s and you wipe on 2nd boss, resulting in a depleted key.

Now your left with a key at a lower level that you once again have to push to the +10 you need. For many ppl this just means " I’m not playing my key until next week "
Depleting a +10 results in having a +9, making groups for +9 is also a lot harder, because the skill level of the people who now signs up has been greatly reduced. So timing 9 is no longer the keyholders challenge, its the challenge for those he/she invites. Therefor the keyholder is extra careful with who he/she invites.

What this has done to Mythic + is that a lot of classes and speccs are not being invited into higher keys ( 8+ and above ) People are too afraid and worried about their time to take the chance.

Every season of mythic + we see a meta form, this is usually based on the top 0.1% of the playerbase, this so called meta comp is absolutely unnecessary for keys below +13, but they are becoming mandatory, again because the punishment of depletion is too great.

Imagine raiding on mythic, but the way m+ works, so every time you wipe on a boss you had to go back to the previous boss and kill it again to gain access. This sounds absolutely absurd. Because raiding has never been working in this way, why would it ? this would make it so hard to find “the right ppl” for the task if the punishment was so great, resulting in a dead game-zone. No one but the 200 best players in world would enjoy this content.

My question is why is mythic + working in this way ? The current state is that speccs like shadowpriest, have NO room in keys above 10. This also goes for alot of classes. Because ppl are so afraid of depleting their hard worked +10. This only gets worse the higher you get.

The suggestion to fix this major issue is to simply remove the lowering of keys from depletion, this would not only make it alot more fun, but way more newcommer friendly. The so called meta slavery would no longer be such a huge necessity, because at the end of the day, you could call it at first boss and try over. No one got hurt.
What is the point of mythic + beyond level 10 anyway, if not to improve and have fun ?
theres not a lot of improvement in doing the same levels you’ve already completed many times before, and theres absolutely no fun in it either.

the way tournament servers works is that u simply try a big crazy pull and fail it 50 times in a row without any punishment because its tournament servers, so u can redo as many times as you want.

Not depleting ur key to a lower level would allow every normal person to share this level of practice. Which would also result in players improving alot more while not getting trashed for ruining somebody’s hard earned key.

In case theres any worry about ppl being rewarded with weekly 10’s much easier the answer is this: They still have to finish the dungeon. They still have to time the +9 to get the +10, and at the end of all this they can do what so many have been doing for the past years, they can buy boosts. So not having keys lower when not timing, wouldn’t be a bad thing, even in this case.

Help making mythic + a great place to be at all times.

2

This come up a lot here. Some people love depletion and some hate it. The discussions never really go anywhere because people are unfaltering in their love/hate.

1 Like
3

This is a common misconception. The fact that there is a key depletion mechanic, and that people tend to invite high rio people/meta specs into their key, are not linked always.

People invite the perceived best choice from the queue at each time. Speaking as a dps that does weeklies from the start of the season, the fear of having a bad run is higher than depleting the key, and let me explain:

Having a fun group/run, but having someone dc, or tank having abit more fun with pulling and getting 1-2 wipes might brick the key, but it is not the end of the world.
On the other hand, having people that are making the run harder by not interrupting, ccing, dispelling, holding aggro, healing, etc, make the run SIGNIFICANTLY worse.

My take:
I do not think depletion is the main problem here. I think the main problem this season is the higher content needed to get the “real” rewards.
During this season:

  • You get hero track items at +7
  • You get gilded crests at +8 (used to be +9)
  • You get myth track vault at +10 (together with the increased difficulty)

Now contrast this with previous seasons (DF season 2, season 3, and season 4):

  • Gilded crests available from +6
  • Hero track from +7
  • Myth track vault from +8 (or +7)
  • Myth track 2/6 from +10 (or +9)

So yeah, I feel that the fundamentals are more than fine (depletion, difficulty, etc), but the problems is that the rewards only matter at the +10 range. They made that breakpoint so important, than anyone able to do it, should only do keys at +10.

If you lower rewards so that they are available from +7/+8 (talking about myth track vault), you will have WAY more people farming those keys, with people not stressing about getting to +10, and for depletion being way less of a problem.

4

What is there to love about it?
All I see is some ppl trying to pretend as if raiding was such successful, role model endgame mode that every other one should align with it.
Well it is not. If anything, raid should have been modernized using the lessons learned from m+'s popularity from Legion.

The reason why depletion has become outdated is because m+ loot wise was stomped into the ground since Legion 7.2 and difficulty-wise it has skyrocketed particularly in the DF-TWW period, compared to the 7.2 version.

5

I hate it, wait for someone who loves it to show up and ask them.

6

Alright, here I go: You must have a gauge to measure failure. If the key doesn’t deplete, then you literally cannot fail. You can grind the same damn thing 15 ilvl beyond the recommended level, being 30 minutes overtime and gear almost naked characters.

The only change I would be willing to do if a non-key holder leaves. As in, somebody just leaves the party, then you don’t deplete.

Of course, everything can be abused, got some ideas, but my philosophy is the same: you fail the timer, you are not ready for that level yet, try it lower.

7

Ok so I walked into some person key as tank had zero idea what I was doing, blew up the key, the group disbanded and I immediately joined the same key at the same level. The keyholder just wasn’t ready.

There is no “abuse” there is legal and illegal. Nothing else. That’s how I live my IRL if the law can’t stop me, God has to and he hasn’t yet.

8

I think the depletion of the key is redundant. The only measurable progression is 12 crests, nobody really cares about a key. I haven’t run own key since the start of TWW and I am playing dps.

9

Just remove the affixes and nonsense and people might start playing M+ again. None enjoys it.

10

I agree on this. This is what kinda goes wrong this season… you have people at ~2,7k rio while some belong there and some don’t. The difficulty and key level squish made it almost impossible to pick the “right” players.

I kinda agree but what if you succeeded the lower level already? Isn’t it a contradiction?
I am honestly having mixed feelings. We tried +13 NW today and our tank had a lag spike at he first pull and didn’t get aggro as expected. We all died, key depleted. Now it’s kinda questionable if the group was ready for +13 or not but you can’t try again but in order to try again, you need to time a +12 first again and this can be very rough with pugs. Chance are not low that you can fail here too and then you have to basically 2-chest a +11 key.

I am for separating the player base a bit, basically “boosted” people should not be on the same level (~2,7k currently) as average and (potentially) good players but at the same time with key depleting being a thing it’s kinda annoying to push past 12 or 13.
I wouldn’t have a proper solution myself tbh.

11

The problem with measuring success/failure in m+, is that it does not tell you anything about a player but about a group.

When you have someone time a +10 key, it does not mean that he is good enough to time a +10 key, but that his group WAS good enough to time a +10 key. We have no indication about the ability of said player.

The indication comes from repetition. If said player timed the same key repeatedly with different groups, then it is an indication that he has mastered that key level.

You are correct, and it is one of the reasons that if you want to “guess” how consistent a player is, one of the things you can check is the number of timed keys 10-11 he has (in case you want consistency for your weekly).

No one has, since it is a really hard thing to measure the “impact” of a player in the success of the group. There are so many factors going in, that you need a human to go and analyze the run to come into conclusions.

12

Ye that’s true but at the same time it could have been a very bad group and the run was only timed due to the exceptionally skill level of this player :stuck_out_tongue:
So it kinda goes both ways if you know what I mean. But in reality the case you described will go for the majority.

I mean you could kinda track logs and interrupts and put this information together in an addon. The issue that dps will be affected by the tank, so if you are always unlucky with tanks, then you will not have good logs here. At the same time you can’t really have meaningful logs for tanks and for healing high hps is not really an indicator for being good because good runs require lower hps. At the same time it’s not bad having high hps but it would require you to “farm” these logs, which could be annoying. (even tho in reality you get it in 1-2 pug runs anyway lol)

Not a perfect solution but a billion times better than rio, that’s for sure.

13

In general my issue is with the keys above 10 - where loot becomes irrelevant. in this case its only about improving. The end of dungeon reward has no impact in these keys what so ever, and here only the right classes / speccs are allowed entrance if they are not keyholder themselves. I can only speak from personal experience when i say that nothing but the meta comps are getting invited into keys at 12-15, which alot of my friends would want to change, but not while its at the risk of lowering keys, only to push them back up.

14

Yes I understand what you mean, but the problem is that any such system created is full of assumptions and bias form the creator (and I believe there are systems like that at least for raid fights). The beauty of rio is that it is pretty simple and only shows what has happened, as with logs. Then it’s on you to make informed decisions. Not perfect, but a long way from the gearscore days.

Yes, I get what you are saying.

From my PoV that is the failure of the new gearing system this season and the steep difficulty curve.
In the previous seasons, you have the “best” gear be available from a +7 or +8. You still got abit higher ilvl, but only saved some crests in the long run. That had the impact of spreading the player base from +6 to a +10 range. And then you had a way lower difficulty curve, where you could do 11,12,13s with relative ease until you started pushing.

Now everyone is “squished” together at the 10/11 range (because its the only key range that gives you myth track), and the difficulty curve from a 11 to a 12 is huge. It made the community 100 times more afraid to downgrade their key (because a +9 is just worthless), and because the “wall” is so big, you cannot see who wants to “push” and who is just doing “weeklies”.

I just hope that next season we get myth track from +8s, and the 10% buff from 12s is removed, so we can have a normal gearing/difficulty curve for the community.

15

But that’s the issue this season, rio is completely useless.
~2,7k (all 11s timed) is pretty much easy doable, just like all 10s in time. Now you have appropriate rio for going +12 or even +13s.
The problem is: They made clearing 10s (and 11s) so easy that the majority can get it, yet the majority of this majority is not ready for 12s (or higher) at all but has the exact same rio that people have who are ready for +12s