Yea and as a tank i wanna pull half dungeon, sometimes we dont have things we want .
Also, its better to wait 2 globals while tank is seting pull than getting killed , or riping agro maming it painful and also slower.
1 Like
Well if you die during pull then clearly you do not. Try again.
1 Like
And as a tank I want to pull mobs and have them all grouped on me and not worry about cc mechanics.
As a healer I want to just heal and not worry about cc mechanics or having to respond to other peopleâs errors.
We all have to do things weâd rather not but alas, we are there as a âteamâ so need to work together.
I think itâs a very unfair comparison, holding aggro (aka tanking) is the basic mechanic of tanks, just like doing damage is for DPS and healing is for healers.
Imagine if you had some bizarre 20 year old restraint before being able to press your spells and deal damage or healâŚ
Nobody is saying tanks shouldnât worry about anything else, but the most basic mechanic of your role shouldnât be your biggest concern given how complex the game already is.
We are not in 2004 anymore.
Holding aggro is a much simpler mechanic now but it never used to be. Your comparison is like me saying doing damage is the basic mechanic of a DPS, it doesnât make sense does it because they still have to do it right.
Back in Cata I had to audition to join a top tier raiding guild by holding aggro on a world boss whilst their best DPS went ham on it. That was the barrier to getting a trail with them and it was a challenge. I did pass though as I knew how to tank.
I donât agree about this being an old mechanic that needs to be retired in a modern game. Literally, DPS have to wait max 3 seconds before they can go ham with any decent tank.
Tanks also have to press their offensive buttons correctly, they have damage rotations the same as DPS do, but the difference is that DPS doing low damage is irrelevant whereas a tank not holding aggro means people will die. Why do tanks still have to worry about this archaic mechanic? Itâs trash, the damage profiles are not balanced around this and it should be removed from the game.
Would you agree to add an extra mechanic for healers and DPS so they have to prepare with low damage/threat abilities for 10 seconds before being able to press their big cooldowns?
That would be very stupid and has no place as of todayâs standards, but you probably would agree because you still live in the nostalgia of 2004 without realizing that the game has evolved.
Why should blizzard change something that is a personal issue? If a player canât wait to slam their buttons, and they know they gonna die, well⌠sucks to be them I guess?
Because itâs not a personal issue, itâs a group issue caused by a bad/archaid design that causes frustration and pressure to an already high demanding role for absolutely no reason.
Also I think my suggestion is pretty reasonable, it would make DPS be able to burst instantly and would make tanks not have to worry about losing aggro and regrouping mobs.
My suggestion makes DPS able to burst instantly which they all love, makes tanks not have to worry and makes the role more agreeable without hurting any other aspect of the game, so tell me, why not?
Well you say that but I recall DPS having to use their abilities for threat mitigation. A rogue would vanish, a hunter would feign death or if you had nothing, you simply stopped attacking.
WoW is very easy now, in general, compared to what it was before and I think it suits modern audiences for the most part
But literally the only issue here is DPS having to wait a few seconds before they go all in. People are so hyper focused now that they treat their rotations and numbers as if it was their job and their life depended on it.
We exist in a game with mechanics, threat is not archaic, without that, why even have tanks? I like tanking, so Iâm going to defend it. If a mob isnât attacking me then either it is designed to hit random players or Iâm doing something wrong. Itâs on me, just as much as pumping high DPS is on the shoulders of the DPS
See, this is where you are missing the point. I like to worry about that as that is my job, make the bad guys hit me and protect everyone else in the group. Without that, Iâm just a glorified damage sponge with lower DPS.
Yes okay the fantasy of âprotecting the groupâ is cool but the problem is that with the current threat system you arenât fighting the enemies, youâre fighting your own team.
My suggestion makes it so you can focus on what really matters, which is using CC, grouping and disrupting enemies etc so that your teammates can do their job, which is what tanks do in RPGs, having to manage aggro shouldnât be a concern, especially now that tank threat is lower than ever and DPS burst is super high.
Itâs literally a 4 second buff on pull so that no DPS dies from aggro, I donât understand why you all are defending this archaic system with tooth and claws like itâs your baby.
In a nutshell this is what tanks are and I see nothing wrong with that.
Isnât fighting your own team, as you put it, what a healer does too when DPS ignore all other mechanics too and take damage where they shouldnât? It isnât a âfighting your teamâ issue, it is working together as a team and everyone has their part to play.
Your comments seem to suggest that you just want DPS to damage and let the healer and tank do all the other hard work. How is that fair? You also mention RPGs but this is an MMORPG, which means you have to work together to overcome the challenge.
People are defending it because it really isnât an issue which is brought up by many, which means it is just an issue with a small minority of players. You might be the highest damage dealing player in the world but if youâre dead on the ground because you couldnât wait 3 seconds as youâre unaware of how aggro works, then guess what, youâre doing 0 dps and itâs your fault.
EDIT: Actually, I done a quick search on EU and NA forums. There are two other threads from recently which talk about aggro/threat. One is a tank asking how to handle their threat better and another saying about warriors pulling aggro. Both of these threads got little activity and the latter suggests there may be a balance issue/bug with a Arms/Fury Wars. If that is the case, Iâve not come across it myself, then the balance issue/bug needs to be fixed and not calling for a legitimate system to be nullified.
Healerâs job (grosso modo) is to heal unavoidable damage and cover player mistakes, people arenât robots who play perfectly. If someone is not willing to adjust, contribute or keeps dying then you should remove it from the group.
You are fighting your team because you donât have the tools to manage it for yourself, and your team will not understand or cooperate in most cases for X reason which is not relevant. This scenario is not playerâs fault, itâs just bad design by Blizzard.
Take this as an example, to make it simple letâs forget any cooldowns. Imagine you are a Guardian Druid, you rush ahead into a trashpack, you use Thrash, Swipe, Swipe, Thrash. That is 4 globals.
Paladin comes in, Wake of Ashes, Divine Storm. Boom he used 2 globals and takes aggro off you because your initial threat is very low. And remember this is without cooldowns, now imagine if he used wingsâŚ
You just donât have the tools as a tank to deal with this, which is why I think my suggestion is necessary.
DPS also have things to manage, I said âNobody is saying tanks shouldnât worry about anything else, but the most basic mechanic of your role shouldnât be your biggest concern given how complex the game already is.â
Thatâs just semantics, you can add the MMO part to my sentence and the point remains the same.
I agree, but it takes less time and effort to fix the system than to teach millions of players. Iâm a practical person, I see problem, I find solution, problem gone letâs keep gaming.
Some specs have more burst than others and thatâs fine, we donât want homogenization but with the amount of bursty profiles we have right now (Ret, Warriors, Devastation, Mages, Shaman, etc) I think itâs time to fix the initial threat issue.
The threat mechanic is working as intended. The elephant in the room is that a non-tank trying to tank will see it dead after 1 to 4 hits at best.
I suggest the following:
- Nerf all enemy damage to their primary aggro by 75%
- Nerf tank survivability by 75% to keep it equal and balanced to the above change
So far what we do is bring the survivability of tanks closer to that of non-tanks. Then:
- Getting hit when you have aggro as a non-tank adds a non-dispellable and additively-stacking debuff that reduces your damage output only (no effect on healing) by 50%. The durability of this debuff depends on the level difference:
â Getting hit by an enemy who is 1 level above makes the debuff equal to 33% of your maxHP. So a level80 character with 5 million HP getting hit 2 times by a random mob in a M+ due to aggro would have their damage or healing reduced by 50% until a total of 3.3 million damage has been âdissipatedâ (2 hits x 33% x 5 million hp = 3.3 million hp)
â Getting hit by an enemy who is 2 levels above makes the debuff equal to 66% of your maxHP. So a level80 character with 5 million HP getting hit 3 times by a boss in M+ due to aggro would have their damage reduced by 50% until a total of 10 million damage has been âdissipatedâ (3 hits x 66% x 5 million hp = 10 million hp)
â Getting hit by an enemy who is 3 levels above or higher or appears as skull makes the debuff equal to 100% of your maxHP. So a level80 character with 5 million HP getting hit 4 times by a raid boss due to aggro would have their damage reduced by 50% until a total of 20 million damage has been âdissipatedâ (4 hits x 100% x 5 million hp = 20 million hp)
The intent of the above is to:
- Make it so that accidentally pulling aggro does not instantly kill but instead give time to react by using threat-reducing or immunity abilities
- Punish the damage dealer who overaggroes without instantly removing them from the playfield; they still get to play but with reduced performance until they learn to not overaggro.
Your suggestion is overly complicated, my suggestion is easier and solves the issue from the root, whereas yours only makes things more confusing.
Why all this complicated buffs and debuffs when you can simply give tanks 4 seconds of increased aggro on pull and solve all issues?
Because your suggestion doesnât teach the âbadâ dps to manage their aggro. It does the exact opposite, itâs a free pass to allow them to go ham with no care in the world as if theyâre attacking a kobold in Elwynn Forest.
At the same time, my suggestion also tackles the issue of non-tanks dying within a split second if they accidentally aggro.
I agree 100% and as has been said in this thread, it only seems to be a tiny amount of players who find this an issue, soâŚ
I donât see the data but I see my in-game experience. I donât know the abilities of a druid tank but pretty sure they also have a mass taunt button. In my experience, albeit I donât play M+ content, I donât have aggro issues. And again, if it was an actual widespread issue, there would be a lot more threads about it on the forum.
For me, it is an aspect but certainly not the biggest concern. Even when I was doing M+ in DF, my biggest concern was CC and damage mitigation, I never even thought about aggro as I always had it on me. Maybe something has changed in TWW M+, I canât comment on that.
I mean⌠
why are you even arguing on this thread when this is clearly not aimed at you? And please donât come now with the âitâs my rightâ card.
If you donât play the content then why are you against something that doesnât even affect you in any matter?
That is a horrible way to messure the importance of a matter, and excuse me but Iâm not gonna bother to explain why, itâs too repetitive.
Because the game isnât just M+ and you never stated that the change you want should only apply to M+ content, which without that clarification could mean a change would impact me.
I think itâs a bit absurd that you think M+ players never take part in other group activities so those who donât take part in M+ would never see the impact of the issue you are trying to explain.
If anything, this would be more obvious in non-M+ content where you could have highly geared DPS thrown in with poorly geared tanks, but the issue just isnât there. Youâre chasing ghosts.
1 Like
Literally the first sentence in my original post clearly states that the concern is about dungeons: 
There is literally no other content where this is issue exists outside of 5 man instances.
??? there is no other content where tanks have to manage AoE aggro besides 5 man instances (and maybe raids but those are different) and even then it would be beneficial for everyone, there are no downsides to my suggestion.
It does not affect you in any way because you donât even play the game (said by yourself that you donât even do m+), youâre just here to argue for the sake of arguing.