Holding an entire city as hostage would be a pretty bad strategy when it comes to getting more ground in Kalimdor. It would cost you an insane amount of resources to feed those people and the night elves would never agreed to a deal which includes giving up their tree to the Horde. The better option would have of course been to kill Malfurion like Sylvanas and Sauerfang planned. But Sauerfang had to mess that up.
I didn’t read the whole OP because the 2 first points were bollocks.
Blizzard wrote the character and says she is not evil. What they say means absolutely nothing. I don’t care if she is evil, an angel or anti-hero, I’m just pointing out that what blizzard says about it has no meaning. They can take her in the other direction and MAKE her one way or the other, but just saying “Oh that char is actually good” or"oh but we meant her to be a virgin" is, again, meaningless.
The other one isn’t even worth talking about, nowhere in the world of world of warcraft is a suggestion that some addition material like a novella needs to be read to understand characters.
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Sylvanas is not an anti-hero.
Back in Classic she knew about her apothecaries developing a new plague to completely wipe out the human population of the Eastern Kingdoms. Later they (somewhat) retconned it by saying in WotLK that Sylvanas did not know about Putress and Varimathras’ plague and she redeemed herself. I myself always viewed this as an excuse, a means for her to remain untouched by the conflict.
This sort of makes sense seeing how then in Cataclysm she uses her plague on Gilneas and she also uses it in Legion and now in BfA.
This brings us to the main point. Sylvanas is not evil because she torched Teldrassil. The torching itself could be justified based on the circumstances and the perspective (e. g. scorched-earth tactics). Sylvanas is evil because undead creatures are not exactly bound for heaven in fantasy settings. In Classic you could read a lot of stuff about that from Undead NPCs. They tell you how they remember their human lives but can’t feel it anymore. Sylvanas is an undead, incapable of feeling anything positive in her life.
Before the expansion came out, there was a fanfic which I think Blizzard elevated into canon, where she captures Nathanos’ nephew to give his skin to Nathanos. Like seriously, do I have to move on after this? A knight of the Argent Crusade, he was an ally of even the Forsaken. He wanted nothing bad for them. But Nathanos having a human-like figure is more important than the life of an innocent ally.
Who else pulls stunts like that in WoW? Noone. Not even Garrosh. This is Gul’dan level evilness. It’s maliciousness for the sake of maliciousness. Sylvanas is completely out of touch with the ideals of the living. She is self-centered, brutal and outright sociopathic. That’s not an anti-hero. Like many said here, Illidan was somewhat an anti-hero (although even in his case I would argue he was evil - no point enslaving half of Outland to your cause when your main attack forces are your personal disciples who chose to be with you).
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She started out as a semi anti-hero as the leader with a somewhat reasonable goal for her kind, even if her random underlings on occasion happily proclaimed “death to the living etc.” and she accepted various plague researches. But she was still somewhat reasonable. That took a turn for the really bad even back in wrath at them gates I can’t remember the name of where she bombared friend and foe alike. And she’s continued down that morally twisted and outright hateful road ever since and proven she acts on selfish feelings and hatred more often than not. That’s not anti-heroic traits. The anti-hero tries to do good with the “wrong” means.
A protagonist lacking the common heroic traits? Balls to that. That could be anyone up to no good you put in the spotlight. Hell, switch a bit and Sargeras is sweet as candy then and the whole Legion is just bomb diggy. If Sylvanas tried to do good at least, even if through commonly morally wrong means then we could discuss it. But she doesn’t.
Well that very same human population was hunting down Sylvanas and her people and killing any they got their hands on. It’s not surprising that she would prepare a weapon for that purpose.
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BS excuse and you know it, Garithos was even willing to work together with them. What did she do with the human/dwarven forces who allied themselves with the Forsaken? Betray and kill them. She made the humans her enemy not the other way around. Dalaran, Ambermile, the Arathi League and Southshore were still around along with living humans in hiding in Lordeanon. Which she to remind you captured to just experiment on them, Varian found out (oopsie from Sylvanas) and he dropped his peacefull nature towards the Forsaken. Anduin tried to restore it but what did Sylvanas do again? Oh yeah kill all Forsaken who were feeling hope and wanted reunite with their families.
Sylvanas could have simply ordered all freed undead to not bother the humans and high elves or even help them if allowed and they accepted. To show goodwill. Nope before Cata she captured survivors to experiment with and attack the remaining high elves in EPL. Such a good soul!
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I never said that she was a good soul, but the undead were being hunted down by humans, in some cases likely because they believed them still part of the scourge. They are called forsaken for a reason.
Also regarding the part about before the storm. Sylvanas didn’t want her people to have false hope as she doesn’t believe undead and humans could live together. And to be honest in the case of the people of Stormwind and the people of Lorderon I think she is correct. We saw some humans be accepting towards the undead in the book but we also saw that the majority of the citizens of stormwind don’t accept the undead as their former family.
I agree, but I still lament that Blizzard decided to make her Warchief. I actually kind of liked how Garrosh confronted her in Cataclysm when she showed him she could use Valkyrs to raise more Forsaken, and it might be one of the only times where I agreed with him. What made her different from the Lich King? That’s the line they should have kept walking, and to be fair they kind of have… but I don’t buy that the ancestor-revering Orcs, Trolls and Tauren would follow a corpse and call her Warchief.
I do like the internal strife within the Horde at the moment, though. It’s pretty nice that we get to be uppity towards Sylvanas and her boyfriend. I wonder how that is going to play out later.
fair enough i guess, tho it wasnt in the way the windchime intended
Except self-defense is never mentioned as any sort of motive for that development. Interesting that literally every other race is fine with a sword, an axe or magic to slaughter each other, it just so happens to be Sylvanas who is making a weapon to twist living beings into monstrosities like her.
That brings us back to The Frozen Throne, where she outright states she is a monster. She is in it for revenge, nothing more.
When Classic comes out, start an Undead and play through Tirisfal, Silverpine and Hillsbrad Foothills, then tell me it was a good purpose. She and her apothecaries literally enjoy making the living suffer, be it humanoid or beast.
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The Horde faction is called Honorbound for a reason.
Vol’jin named Sylvanas Warchief with his dying breath. The Horde HONORS this by following her.
They should have made this a stronger point, not just suggest it through a faction name.
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I mean is it important? I’d still follow her even if she’s just plain evil. Atleast something’s moving and, for the first time, we get to choose which side to stand with. And since I already know way too well Saurfang’s side, I just want to see what’s on the other side.
I do hope she “wins” in the end, much like Ramsay Bolton won many battles and was a great villain. Making her lose like Garrosh would be… Fine, I guess, which is probably gonna happen, but the real deal would be making things go south for once, “losing” the expansion for the first time. No end win against the ubervillain.
That would be intriguing. So, let her be evil or whatever, that wouldn’t be a problem at all, all the opposite in fact.
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I love how much support she has. I’m not sure The Devs expected that. Obviously some hate her. People can make up their own minds.
Its not real life, it’s a game and I’m thoroughly enjoying the Horde story and our Warchief.
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I totally agree, the reason i don’t like Sylvanas is the fact that the horde is not a Scourge.
I really enjoyed the Heavy chaman, wise side of the Horde, i would’ve joined the alliance without this feeling.
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Probally, they thought throwing her under the bus Garrosh style, would make people love them instead. They totally underestimated her popularity and it bite them back hard. It’s hilarious.
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“Hi, I’m Sylvanas, I torched a tree full of women and children, gloated about it, and forced someone to watch it happen. Not only did I do all that, I enjoyed it. But this is not evil, it’s merely an absence of heroic qualities.”
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On the whole “Sylvanas thing” - the sole purpose of this entire plot-line is not to create interesting, well-rounded characters (the whole thing is a gigantic melodrama) but to manufacture exactly the kind of online furore that this thread is an example of. Blizzard are simply stirring the pot here, that’s all. If you want interesting characters or to find out what a real anti-hero looks like, you need to go to literature, not this cartoon schlock.
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Nothing’s biting them, she burned down civilians, defiled free will, killed her own forsaken at peaceful meeting with their human relatives, she’s going down one way or another. Not your warchief for long that’s for sure.
At best she’s being kicked out of Horde and becomes a Villain on the side, so she at least doesn’t die. Possibly Thrall treatment, but with occasional showing up-
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Of course it is! It’s literally the reason why they even joined the Horde. In cata there is a quest where Sylvanas states that they fight because the Alliance does not acknowledge their rightful claim to those lands. Plus the plague does not twist living beings into monstrosities like her it merely kills them, it’s not a huge difference from other weapons in that way, especially compared to things like magic. I see little difference in the use of the plague and Jaina freezing her enemies alive. The difference starts after the use when Sylvanas raises those that are dead but that is not on the plague.
I will not dispute that the forsaken have done terrible things. Many of them have gone mad after breaking free from the lich king as they maintain all the memories of their terrible actions while under the lich king’s grasp.
Yet they were completely capable of rebelling against Garrosh. Vol’jin considered leaving the Horde even before Garrosh had gone full cuckoo, where’s the honour in that? I don’t see how Sylvanas is any better than Garrosh. The Horde put aside their difference with the Alliance to defeat the Scourge; now they follow someone who is willing to do “anything” to save the Horde, including raising the dead (of both enemies and allies).