The best ever city for Night elves

Community General Discussion
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There is quite a lot to unpack here and cover. I won’t be responding to all of it.

My point about the palaces being the epitome of Highborne arrogance has to do with what it represents.

Azshara’s palace is the result of her elevating herself above her people. The motivation and inspiration behind such palaces stems from avarice.

The temples of Elune does not represent the same thing. That is selfless devotion of giving thanks to the maker, as is appropriate to do in sacred sites. Elune became a faraway concept in the mind of Azshara and her lackeys when their fondness for the Arcane overshadowed pretty much everything else. It basically became their new God - an act of idolatry.

And I will stand firm on that the Kaldorei are most definitely likely to be monogamous. Even if the RPGs are no longer canon, it is hinted in them that the Kaldorei take companions for life. Tyrande and Malfurion having been together for 10k years and then eventualling marrying (because the end of the long vigil enabled them to do so) reflects a large part of Kaldorei society - how they appreciate the unity of two coming together as one.

The Alliance Player’s Guide: “Night elves do not traditionally marry, but they do take companions for life.”

Marrying is not what is traditional and is what made the union between Malf and Tyr different, but their lifelong companionship as mates is something that permeates their society due to the values and traditions they hold. Let’s also take into consideration that they evolved from Trolls. The Trolls engaged in brutal sacrifices, cannibalism, and probably even inc*st. I wouldn’t be surprised that they practiced polygamy and then the Night Elves learned to appreciate relationships that are much similar to how humans come together IRL. And honestly, the Kaldorei are far more pure and holy of their mindset (Whenever they do not covet power, like Azshara) than Humans in the WoW universe. I dare say they do an even better job at appreciating their kin and understanding love than we as Humans IRL do.

They are a stark contrast to Trolls in terms of culture and traditions.

With that trivial point done with, however, as it’s not really the main subject, I do not believe the Kaldorei, as hinted by the Chronicle books and other sources of lore, did exist for very long before Azshara’s empire tbh. They came around 15k years ago in the timeline? That means that only 2-3k years later, Azshara came about with her empire.
“Around 15,000 years ago a tribe of Dark Trolls unconcerned by the battles for land and power and longing for a peaceful connection to the world…”

"In time, many of the night elves yearned for a different life, drawn to the arcane, they became obsessed with unlocking the Well of Eternity’s secrets. They rigorously studied the fount’s arcane energies becoming learned sorcerers. They harnessed the powers of the arcane lake and constructed wondrous temples and roadways around it. Magic became an inseparable part of life as the night elves reveled in the power at their fingertips. "

I think much of the lore speaks for itself in regards to the fallibility of Elves and their proclivity towards arrogance. Arrogance is also always a latent trait that is still noticeable in them. That is not just the Kaldorei, too. It is the Shal’dorei, Sin’dorei, Quel’dorei, and Ren’dorei. It’s because they are all related and frequently show re-emerging signs of self-asserted superiority to other races, as they deem their allies primitive.

I do not believe it’d make sense at all for the Kaldorei to establish new cities identical to the ones during the empire. The Kaldorei made their mistakes and were humbled by it.

Their practice of Nature (Druids) and Stellar energies (As priestesses and druids of the moon) far better reflect the union between Elune and Malorne, and then by extension, the original will and purpose Elune had for her children.

Honestly, a reiteration of Darnassus or something even more humble than that would be fine and make complete sense.

That is my final take on the matter.

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Not all Kal’dorei.

Don’t forget Mage as a class was introduced after the Shen’dralar joined Night elf society in Cataclysm. We also see the Shen’dralar along with their leader fighting in Darkshore and using the Arcane to teleport as many Darnassus citizens as they can. This should have proved to Tyrande and Malfurion that Arcane can come in handy when used correctly. At that point, it wouldn’t matter as Tyrande was pissed at one thing and one thing only. Sylvanas Windrunner.

The Shen’dralar are similar to Night elves in almost every way. The only difference is while most night elves favor sitting outside in nature, the Shen’dralar favorite reading a book indoors.

As for my Character, I like to think of her having a mix of both worlds. Reading a book outside in the fresh air while enjoying the sounds of nature. She wears elegant purple/pink dresses with Gold/silver accessories. Her hair tied back in a elegant pony Tail. She has a feminine and elegant walk while having her nose stuck in the book that makes the Night Elf Druids and priestesses gossip about her being a beautiful rich nerd.

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The Shen’dralar were as much part of that avarice back during the empire as Azshara and those who dwelled closest to the Well of Eternity.

To say that the difference between the Kaldorei and Shen’dralar is that the latter enjoy reading books more so than the former is kind of shallow.

" Not all [Highborne] lived in [Zin-Azshari], despite their obsession with the [Well of Eternity]. For a variety of political or personal reasons, certain members of the nobility opted to live outside the capital city. Moreover, not all night elves (or other races of Kalimdor) joined the main force of night elf defenders. Such holdouts were not necessarily resistant to the idea of joining their compatriots. Indeed, it seems likelier that these small pockets of resistance had heard nothing of the primary defending force and were unaware of the demonic invasion’s massive scope. The Shen’dralar were one of these holdout groups."

They delved recklessly into the Arcanic arts just like anyone else, and when the empire fell and the long vigil took root for several thousand years, the Shen’dralar remained hidden within Eldre’Thalas exactly because they knew they had been shunned from society. They lived in secret. They even used a demon to empower themselves while they lived there.

The mage class first being introduced to the Kaldorei in Cataclysm has primarily to do with gameplay purposes, and a little bit because of the fact that Tyrande allowed some of the Shen’dralar to reunite with their people. However, mages have existed as part of the Kaldorei since always, it’s just that, nowadays, they are far fewer and they have no significant influence - politically nor religiously. They are just there. The Highborne does not really exist anymore. They are all Kaldorei but the ones in charge are those of the Sisterhood, with Tyrande being the High Priestess.

The Shen’dralar have no choice but to obey Tyrande and Malfurion. If they don’t and become as reckless with the Arcane as they were before, they’ll be shunned again and probably for good. So they have to act disciplined when dealing with the Arcane.

Just because they are back with the rest of their people, doesn’t mean that the other Kaldorei don’t treat them with mistrust and caution. The Kaldorei remember what happened that day, when the demons invaded. They remember it was Azshara’s fault, due to her penchant for Arcanic power. The Shen’dralar are just as guilty as her in that.

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There are also the events between the two. The city was raided and settled by Demons and Ogres. In addition to that, the Shen’dralar were culling themselves because even with using demons to power them, there still was not enough magic for everyone. On top of that, it is canon that the Horde is the faction that raided all of Dire Maul during classic so that wouldn’t help their numbers. The city was in such a mess that they didn’t even keep it as a garrison. The rest of the Shen’dralar were left to wander the wilds between the events of Dire Maul and the Cataclysm while having little magic to sustain them and facing fel withdrawal.

Then, they were allowed to re-join their kin but are still mistrusted. There can’t be a lot of them left after everything they’ve been through and their newer mages are elves from Tyrande’s new society, sharing their new values one can assume. We know their stance hasn’t lessened with how the Nightborne were scorned after the Suramar events. So yea, they’ve been burned too bad. It’ll be nice to see how they fare now with their help in actual warfare.

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449

It is pretty bad, Nightelves/higbornes were most advanced civilization in the universe back in the era of Azhara. And no draenai did not invent space travel, it was gifted to them by the Beings of light. If they ever want to reclaim their glory they need Azhara back as a leader or someone like her, And go back to their roots of magic. Elune does not care, if she did she could intervene and stop sylvanas. So why worship a goddes that does not care about you? In my opinion they should form a squad of super powerfull heroes with sole mission to Kill elune, Should not be that hard would not be first time we killed a godlike being.Even gods need to face

Oh no, it the the flaw of creator that created imperfect world with suffering in it. Any deity like that need to be Killed, even gods can die remember that. Now to elune she is neither omnipotent/omniscient she is sister of winterqueen therefor close to power lvl of titans.
Ingame we Defeated 2 titans so far Agrammar and argus, so killing elune is not out of possibility.

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This is neither here nor there. To claim that you know the intentions and motivations of a deity is typical human arrogance. When a being of far higher power is able to see things that you can’t because of omnipotence then you can’t speak on that God or Goddess’ behalf to claim that inaction == doesn’t care.

And we don’t know all that much about Elune regardless. Maybe she is not all powerful despite being a Goddess. Perhaps she is not allowed to intervene. Perhaps she actually allows mortals do as they please because it is ultimately they who are to be held accountable and not Elune anyway?

It’s not Elune’s fault what happened. It’s Sylvanas’ fault.

There is also the reality of free will. If every higher being intervenes in every situation, they would rob mortals of their will to choose and act by their own accord. They’d be no different than robots then just made into puzzle pieces by those higher beings. Something to take into consideration. I am fairly certain you wouldn’t want your free will taken away.

For some reason, humans immediately enjoy blaming God or whichever deity is part of the conversation if something tragic happened, despite the fact that it’s humans who are behind most of the atrocities happening in the world, aside from natural catastrophes. Place blame where blame is due.

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The Nightborne are a different case, as Tyrande put it she was afraid of Thalyssra being similar to Elisande, who is similar to Azshara. The Nightborne are also changed, due to the power of the Arcane. Arcane is everywhere even in their nature. They dont even speak the same langauge as the nightelves anymore.

As i said, the Shen’dralar have been seen fighting in Darkshore along with their leader in BFA. One Shen’dralar mage has also been seen in Teldrassil teleporting civilians out a few seconds before the tree burned. Wether he made it out or not is a mystery, but we see that King Greymane, Queen Mia, and us (the players) used this portal to escape. as for the Priestesses, they refused as they wanted to stay behind with the injured.

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And they (at least one) shows up in Ardenweald.

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Two.

Astarii Starseeker and Jandria.
We don’t know of the third Priestess, but we know it wasn’t Dentaria Silverglade or Belysra Starbreeze

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It took a lot of time to write, then spell check… too many thoughts to lay down.

Yeh, I’m sorry, but you really need to read the whole thing, I really do give a far more in depth explanataion for your beneift to show you comprehensively why blizzard has done what they have done - you make the same arguemnets as before, and without reading my responses, I’d merely be repeating myself to little avail.

I went into the detail to help you understand, I assumed, you were interested enough, seeing how you took your time to to explain how you felt, I thought I’d show you a similar level of kin respect and take the time… I am a little disappointed you wouldn’t read it but would respond anyway.

If I were to put a feeling to it, I would also categorise the kaldorei as monogamous, however, after reading the now de-canoised RPG books and suspecint how some writers roll, I won’t comment much on it till we get a genuine look at their society either in a proper book or film/series or in-game presentation.

I wouldn’t like them to address that issue now though

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My apologies about that but you had written 5-10 minutes worth of reading material. I eventually fell off. I guess I am not here on the forums to skim through 20+ paragraphs. I feel like people most of the time can make their point come across in a concise manner through 4-5 paragraphs.

I just wasn’t in the mood to read thoroughly through everything. It’d be different if your response was shorter.

With that said, I think our perspectives on the Kaldorei are fundamentally different. Mine includes more the involvement of the Arcane, whereas yours do not.

It’s just like that sometimes.

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This is just pure speculation. We have no means to confirm that Elune is on the same level as her sister in terms of power. They belong to entirely different pantheons (If Elune is part of one at all. She may be a lone wolf). Remember that Blizzard have confirmed only Zovaal, The Jailer, to be on the same level as the titans in terms of power. They have not described the other Eternal Ones as equally powerful. It also seems that the Eternal Ones are more or less bound to the Shadowlands and operate most efficiently within their own covenants, whereas Elune is a universe-spanning deity who’s had influence not only on Azeroth but other worlds as well, which we can learn through the Droman in Ardenweald.

“It the flaw of the creator that created an imperfect world with suffering in it”.

first of all, if Elune is not one of the First Ones (Which we have yet to confirm) then she did not create the universe. She did not create any worlds nor did she create any races. The Kaldorei believes her to be the maker but what actually created the Kaldorei was the Well of Eternity’s energies… or Azeroth, if you will.

If the world was originally created perfect but the races who lives in it makes it imperfect, whose fault is it then?

Only human arrogance would suggest that mortal races are innocent in any way and that God or any deities at all are to be blamed. Taking responsibility is a virtue. So is managing to place blame where blame is due.

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From what I can read, your take on the Kaldorei is one where they’re not trying to be everything and having takes on every single thing that makes them the “I win” race.

The problem I have with Kalibas’ take is that he has this view that due to the Night Elves being the first, they should be something, beyond special yet phrasing it in a way where “it’s all in their lore.”

Making the night elves perfect in that way gives us nothing. They just become what the Humans are. Perfect…yet so damned boring. Blood Elves are in that similar position now. They are almost so perfect, but so boring and stale. I reckon, Druidism and Elune worship should remain the central focus of the new night elf city. Sentinels and Wardens involvement as well as something small for the remaining Shen’dralar.

Demon Hunters, Death Knights and Monks are all their own thing and won’t have any influence. Demon Hunters are Illidari and Blizzard won’t give night elf demon hunters anything special which overrides blood elf demon hunters. So, if the Illidari play a part for their respective races, then that means both the new night elf city and the updated Silvermoon will have Illidari sections. (Unlikely to happen, in all honesty.)

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I quite agree with that.

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I don’t think they need Azsahra back. Not to reciporocate the level of of advancement they had reached… tha’ts the passed, and they built it… not her. She just dicatated. She was obsessed with seeking more power sources, she tasked the Shen’dralar to do her top projects 0- the wonders that amazed the people.

The people themselves like knoweldge and study, it is hown in the elves, leadership helps determine a few things

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Sometimes it’s fun to read detail and discussion when you share a passion over something. This use to be the case decade ago, now, people prefer 1 liners and expect to get proper answers that can convince them or portray the complexities of certain issues.

I also like to talk about this, when I respond I am hoping anyone who wades in can get a decent grasp of why I have said what I have.

You did take the time to write your thoughts, and I assumed you appreciated a more in-depth response.

It appears I was wrong. I shall be concise with you hence forth.

We don’t even know what “sister” means - for such beings it is likely a metaphor - like the Winter Queen’s counterpart in the life i.e living realm where our characters come from as opposed to the death realm.

Sire Denathrius is her brother too - they certainly don’t have the same parents or any such thing. Or maybe they do. More is needed.

We just don’t know enough yet, we have to wait till they reveal more. It certainly doesn’t make much sense with the information we have.

Does the person who says this know the mind of the creator or the purpose he created the worlds for? know his hand or motivations for the things he does/did or can be certain why things are as they are?

Taking responsibility is indeed a virtue, even if made perfect, given a choice to choose to be imperfect well shall we blame the person who made us or the person who made a choice that would affect their descendants or the state of their world after such a choice.

But then some people would rather cast blame than take responsibility of their own lives and actions and do, make best of their situation no matter what it is.

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They are special, and have been nerfed in wow versus their original prestnation in Wc3 and teh novels.

My problem with you is that your aversion is because you would not accept anyone but the blood elves being supreme at the things you love them for and refuse to accept that they are not - at least amongst the playable races or rather their night elven counterparts. I don’t have a problem with it. If the lore had made the blood elves supreme then that is what they would have been.

I think that’s nonsense, not htat it doesn’t have some truth to it. But that you need to be super flawed to be interesting is rubbish - it just means you’re not good at writing for that time of thing.

Read the Lord of the rings and the Wheel of Time - not the movies or tv show the actual books by the authors who spent decades working o n them, - see the level of detail you need to ahve in your world and your magic/power system to produce compelling heroes or races/factions that can be quite powerful yet aren’t infallible nor invulnerable.

It can be done.

Demon hunters, like druids and like Elune priests are a night elf thing, first created by night elves - these 3 unlike the mage class also created by night elves, are directly taught to other races by night elves, so they have the night elf version of such classes. (at least it was for druids until we met Drust and zandalari druids).

Nothing wrong with these, most classes have their institutions anyway, there is no class that is exclusive to one race, however most classes have an origin from a race or are baed primarily on the version practised by that race.

e.g the mage class originated from the night elves, but the version the class uses is the human version. In the lore this developed from the high elf version which in turn comes from the remnants of the far more powerful night elf version - the history shows how it got to that state and why too.

the hunter class however - is a combination of styles from different groups - it has elven ranger/marksmen, dwarven survival mountaineers, orc beast mastery, tauren/troll spear hunters all mixed together.

Blizzard had stated in an interview that the warrior class was an almagmation of the Mountain King, Berserker/barbarian, Blademaster etc and that was their initial approach to many of the classes.

Remember for the priest class, they took the human holy light priest version, but added a shadow dark priest version too. The dwarven faith, the night elf faith, the troll loa faith none of these were specifically represented choosing instead to give 1 unique ability that was specific faith based instead of base the class on that.

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Their Druids, Priests and W3 representation was special and unique.

That is the version I’d rather see.

On the 18th, I don’t want World “of how amazing the Night Elves are. Play a night elf or fall asleep” craft. I want racial pride. Yes, that means we see the core elements of the races being truly shown. For Night Elves, it will be Druids and Priests, then followed on by Hunters and Demon Hunters. For Blood Elves, it will be Mages, Paladins and Hunters, then followed by Demon Hunters.

I am critical of the current writing team, but the fact is - they aren’t writing the night elves as being amazion perfects. They are just night elves, who are now seemingly based in Northern Kalimdor. We got nothing about Alliance presence in Feralas and the only night elf presence in Dire Maul is that of screaming ghosts and banshees.

Just like Blood Elves are just blood elves, based in Northern Eastern Kingdoms.

What you think and what is happening, are two very different things. The Blood Elf fanbase is huge agreement that the race has become boring, because it’s become too perfect.

Feel free to check my thread, addressing the issue:
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-blood-elves-and-their-future/337026/1

But it didn’t, because we’re ignoring races like the Draenei / Eredar, who have been wielding the arcane for 5 times longer than Azshara’s Empire.

The Ethereals are another example. The Mage class is not associated with night elves…blizzard have gone in a different direction and you just have to accept that the game is not those three books from the early 2000’s.

You just have to get over night elf mages. You can see from another night elf fan that he doesn’t share you views on what the elves should be. What I find is that your hypocritical because you likely think that Tharandrel is secretly some sort of blood elf fan because you, little Kalibas…you are the ultimate night elf fan and if anyone says “no” to your ideas, then they’re just horrible blood elf / horde fans.

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the mage class originated with the night elves. What the Eredar did on Argus is not what constitutes the mage class we play. It could be mage related, and they would have versions of it, but it would not be the same and could be something different, yet similar… we just don’t know.

What became the mage class we play, starts with the elves, the knowledge is passed to humans, and the mage we play is based on the human mage, not an Eredar one, and it’s origin goes back to the original elves, the kaldorei.

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No, because I don’t think your understanding how the mage class works.

It’s like trying to say that the Death Knight class and Warlock relates back to the Orcs or how the Paladin class relates back to the Draenei.
It doesn’t work like that.

The Mage class is most amplified when we see Humans, Nightborne and Blood Elves. Each have taken a different route and mastered it, far beyond the basic night elf. After, it goes to Draenei and Void Elves, who both have their own versions.

I mean, we even know that the night elf mages are now nowhere near as strong as whatever they had under Azshara. The proof is that Estulan has failed in restoring Dire Maul…seemingly Feralas no longer has a strong Alliance presence and Dire Maul still belongs to the Ogres.

EDIT: And I’ve just seen the updated Shen’dralar lore. They didn’t create any wonders (aside from Eldre’Thalas.) They were revered for, and I quote:
The Shen’dralar were Queen Azshara most revered arcanists charged with the storage and safekeeping of her most precious tomes

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shen%27dralar

So, as I’ve been saying - they were Mage-Librarians. Nothing more, nothing less.