The current state of the Warlock - what is the problem with the class?

Warlock as a class stand in the very bad spot right now. There is too many issues in class design, class implementation, class itteration, spec itteration and peole that stand behind all warlock changes.

To understand what is wrong first we need to identify these issues, it is:

  1. Dev team vision of the warlock.
  2. Class toolkit that was implemented.
  3. Destro.
  4. Bad reputation.
  5. Casuals

First problem - the vision that blizzard tries to push over warlocks.
To be more simplistic, the idea that blizzard tries to sell - the tanky caster that can take huge amount of damage and deals equaly huge amunt of damage is good on paper. But this idea is not working because all other specs in game (with some minor exeptions) have more reliable desing that works in current game engine and works better in the current game flow. Warlocks simply just feels extremely outdated in damage dealing mechanics, and how blizz treats warlock damage dealing mechanics. For example - one of the demo’s main sources of damage is demons, their main role is to do damage and this damage is somewhat simmilar to some mediocore DoT damage of other classes, and blizzard treats demons in such way - like demons are just DoT’s. But they are not DoTs, they are NPC that we summon to deal damage. Unlike DoT’s demons could be lost behind line of sight, CCed, or simply killed. None of our nonmain demons are bring something else on the table exept raw damage. While other classes have spells with additional usefull effects.

Second problem - Class toolkit. Why warlocks was strong Pre Legion? The answer is simple, they had relliable toolkit that was designed to be compedetive in every game encouther, no matter PvE it is or PvP.
Right now, this tanky caster toolkit works only in leveling and raids, and still it designed so badly that many M+ players are not willing to take warlocks in the groups, and there several reasons for that but we talk later about that. In PvP only destro is actualy capable to be 100% of the time compedetive. While Demo and especialy affli has some horrible desing and tech problems that Blizzard decided not to solve before next Xpac (And just for the record, today 3 june of 2020 on SL Alpha test changes that blizzard did to demo is small, insignificant and just bad).
Blizzard’s design of tanky and imobile caster doesn’t work for many diffirent reasons…for example if Warlock won’t pick up Demon skin then you won’t be able to start combat with pre build shields, and this will lead a very dire situation in combat, because baseline soul leech generates shield only 8% of your and your demon Single Target Damage. While classes like Hunters, DH have acces to the leech that grants them by their pets or their spells that will heal them from any damage they deal. And for Demo soul leech won’t generate shields because Felguard - the demon that blizz forces on demo has Felstorm as special skill - an AoE ability, and a talent version of that ability that will deal 400% of felstorm damage…but guess what, you won’t have shields from that.
Other problem is that we have only one one talent choice that improves our survivability in meaningful way. This is Demon skin and Dark pact, but both of these talents are on the same row. Additionaly all our azerite traits that suppose to buff our survivability is garbage. One that increases amount of healing from drain life, when our health is criticaly low, and we are near execute phase of many specs and reaping flames? The other that gives our some absorbtion shield when our fear is active.

Destro - destro is a problem because Devs desing all warlock toolkit around Destro. Our CC is made so destro could easily execute Chaos bolt chains and deal with the enemy, while Demo and Affli are unable to use CC at same level of efficiency as destro. Both Affli and Demo require way longer ramp up phase, and that phase leaves them in exposed to the all kind of CC and interupts, while destro could easily rain CB and gain resources while Infernal deals massive ammounts of damage to the enemies. And this is looks strange, because Destro summons Infernal who not only deals same amount of damage as Tyrant to the single target, but also deals massive AoE damage, stuns the target and generates resources for the destro… while tyrant damage in baseline is practicaly non existant, he needs to be summoned while you have a lots of imps in order to buff them or use them if you have demonic consumption talent. Tyrant requires a full preparation before he sould be summoned, while destro is able to start his things on the fly.

Bad reputation… this is triky part. First, at the start of the BFA all big WoW influincers like Method and the others told their viewers that warlocks was in bad shape, this lead to the rejection of Warlocks from the community. In the Beggining of BFA when M+ was open, it was hard to get in dungeons because of all of bad rep that surrounded warlocks, and Blizzard did nothing to fix that. Not only warlocks was in bad shape, but people found more and more bugs that ruined Warlocks, look at Inner demons or Nether portal as example, when demons that you could summon had 110 level while you was 120. And blizzard didn’t fixed that for good amount of time. Before came explosive potential, community didn’t thought about demo in M+, and now, take it away and no one will bring Demo for high M+ key. Affli in the other hand could be usefull in high M+ keys, but because it practicaly useles in low keys, people don’t seems to want to see any Affliction warlock in their party.

Casuals…what i could say about that… Because they create a warlock look at all “cool” effects, armies of imps, big Chaosbolts they puke raimbows and screams how cool warlocks are…exept these casuals will never bring warlock to M+ or Arena where warlock desing falls apart. And sadly blizzard points on these people and uses them as an excuse not to fix warlocks.

3 Likes

Quite frankly, Warlocks are pretty damn strong right now.

Literally the only place where we do not wreck as a whole is M+ and even there both Destruction and Demonology are already having a good setup and just missing that one nudge to make them completely in-line with better options. I believe that nudge will come with AoE hard and soft caps introduced in Shadowlands - that target the troublemakers there, while mostly not affecting Warlocks.

Affliction M+ is getting massively propped up in Alpha with strong AoE option added on top of that.

Other than that? Warlocks are completely fine in everything else, heck we almost consistently have 2 good specs for vast majority of content to roll with and sometimes even 3. Raiding and PvP - we’re strong and not just patch strong - basically strong for years now.

Overall Blizzard should try their best to not change the working formulas and mostly just patch up some few glaring gaps, such as lack of interrupt for Demo, Affliction AoE and maybe give Destruction alternative to its 3/2 minute wonder (which totally works, mind you, but IMO it’s fine to have alternative talent that gives a lot of sustain for burst in 90 level talent row).

From my own perch, as Destruction player for years, on top of what was given in Shadowlands with relaxed AoE caps for Destruction and F&B buff, I’d really like them to drop Summon Infernal to 2 mins CD and that’s about it. That’s really all spec could use at that point. Maybe also make Grimoire of Sacrifice not a waste of pixels in talent tree too, but whatever really - if the price of keeping current Destruction as is and powerful in Shlands, I won’t cry if it stays dead.

While you have identified the problem with the class and specs, it is purely because of Ion Hazzikostas being an incompetent, inexperienced and unqualified person in charge.

There are so many gaps and loopholes that make no sense whatsoever in this game’s design and it is the fault of the incompetent people behind it.

We replace those people, we fix the game overnight.

How many Affli warlocks have you seen in arenas? Or demo?
When you saying

You saying about destro, not affli or demo. Affli is in pretty weak spot right now in M+ and PvP, sure it could be used in raids…but raids are not the encounter where desing of the spec is truly tested.

What working formula? The one that leaves demo with broken game mechanics? The one that ignores numbers of problems in demo toolkit? Demo as a spec don’t need some fixes and some makeup, it need a GOOD redesing, that will leave behind horrific ideas that BFA tried to establish. Caster, that has zero mobility, poor self defence mechanics, huge ramp up time, zere baseline instacasts, has no place in current WoW gameflow.

Destro only viable because of stupidly overpowered damage of Chaosbolt…nerf it, and all destros will gone from the picture. Spec is based around one button, and nothing else.

Sadly replacing Ion is only half of the problem. He was good as raid encounter designer, but not as class designer or team leader.

From a PvP point of view, the main issue with warlock right now is that it’s just a completely unfun class. I don’t really ever play demo so I’m not gonna talk about that and pretend like I know what I’m on about but…

Destro: Not fun to play; people just LoS you all game, built around getting 1 spell off multiple times in a short window. Not fun to play against; you have to just LoS all game and stop them casting 1 spell over and over again. But it’s the only viable spec for PvP, so any warlock who PvPs (and isn’t a masochist) is forced to play Destro.

Affli: DoTs do tickle damage, can be dispelled practically freely, multiple classes (not just healers) with curse dispels which reduce overall damage by a tonne, built to do a big burst on a 3 minute cooldown, which never before has been the direction (or “class fantasy” of affliction) which also can just be dispelled and negated entirely. Along with most of Affliction damage (if you look on pve damage meters) being baked into hard casting shadowbolts, rather than maintaining DoTs, it just doesn’t work as a spec in PvP. And DoT’s lasting such a short duration that, in PvP, all you can do with your time is reapply, reapply, reapply, reapply, etc. Squishiest and least mobile spec in the game, long ramp up time which leads to nothing.

It’s the awful design of affliction that’s forced them to make destro “OP” because they screwed Affli design over so hard this expansion that it wasn’t fixable within the expansion and they couldn’t leave all 3 warlock specs being bottom tier for a whole expansion.

Here’s to hoping shadowlands will fix affliction’s problems.

4 Likes

Destro wasn’t “made” OP. It scales really well with increased power, let that be borrowed power systems or raw stats. That’s why Destro is generally the weakest at the start of a new expansion, but around the end it scales out of bounds.

1 Like

Yeah, I’ll just gonna snip all that obnoxious reply/quote every half a sentence thing.

Warlocks are pretty damn strong as a whole. I mean the only thing we do not outright excel at one way or another is M+.

Affliction currently has found itself in a uncharacteristic dip - literally a single tier where they are not busted for years now, except for M+.

But then Affliction is already getting substantial changes in Alpha, most obviously patching their M+ weakness and if we know anything about Affliction - it is almost guaranteed to be good in Raids and at least decent in PvP if not outright good or even busted.

So frankly all this talk about how Affliction is mechanically bad is a bunch of bull. It was missing AoE option, it gets added - the rest is solid as is.

Now on to Demo - really the only big gap for Demo right now is lack of reasonable interrupt. The rest is pretty much there. It could use a pat on the back in PvP and a small throughput increase in PvE, but other than that it plays well and does what it’s supposed to be.

People can harp on this all they like, but realistically - we’re pretty damn solid as a whole and at most the real stuff to ask for, aside from the previously mentioned gaps, is talent balancing.

I disagree, that doesn’t work in raid. In fact, raids requires REACTION, not thinking in advance what you’re going to do. Since most of mechanics one shots you, no matter how tanky you are, then being a “Tanky” caster is irrevelant, because you’re not allowed to fail. Warlocks have great plannification tools, like circle and gates. But destro feels bad when I’m 2.0 s out of 2.4 of my casting time but I have to give up on my cast because it’s either that or wipe. I wouldn’t mind if destro’s chaos bolt had a cast timer halven.

Now, regarding Demon, I personnaly don’t like that spec. How the hell on hearth design team tought that ramp up spec without interrupt was a great idea in a game that requires baseline cut and direct damages ? The whole class needs instant and reliable cc (I’m sorry, but shadowfurry can’t be reliable as it’s not instant) with a baseline interrupt and more direct damages.

Also, regarding demon, if legion’s rework doesn’t work, it’s because that rework sucks. Maybe a revert could be done ?

2 Likes

I am sorry, but much of it is a baloney.

We are legitimate tanky (and passively at that) and it legitimately allows us to do stuff that would make most others shake in their booties. In between our Soul Leech (which is super underrated), extra HP and built-in passive DR for Demo/Destruction or extra mobility/healing for Aff - we’re really able to afford messing around in raids.

And I have the creds to say that with my 12/12M.

Vast majority of things coming your way are either on timer or you simply know they are coming. Sometimes you really have to cancel cast, but that’s life - for this supposed challenge, Warlocks with all 3 specs seem to do exceptionally well in raids right now, this means that we pump enough to compensate for that occasional inconvenience.

Things that are a legitimate oneshot or “omfg cancel cast and move nao or die” are not really that frequent and even then are often countered with a single one instant GCD sidestepping.

Heck with how much haste Destruction packs nowadays - 2.4 sec casting time is like a unicorn… that just does not happen.

Raid is not enviroment where toolkit are tested, look at M+ and Arenas, in arenas only destro warlocks are viable due of their OP damage and relatevely easy damage dealing mechanics, there is one or two demo and zero affliction. So when you say “Warlocks” please correct yourself and write “Destro”. But Destro is not ALL warlocks, destro is only one spec of three that warlocks have, and two of these THREE specs is useless in M+ and Arenas right now due of devastating ammount of issues that good raw damage could not compensate at all.

Well, I slacked on some bosses like Destregath, I got one shoted. And I tought I could survive, but I didn’t. And wasting a CR for a slacker doesn’t seem a bright idea.

I’m only playing warlock since 8.3. I’m being biased by the fact that I used to play a ret paladin, which let’s be honest…Doesn’t need any planification other than just not using wings when I know I’m being forced out of melee range.

Well, yes, but on the same time, I don’t think that feels great.

Sadly, I was asked to play demon on Shaddar. I hated that since I hate that spec.

I don’t have Vita-Charged Titanshard so I don’t have that many haste. Outside of lust and racial, my hard cast timer on chaos bolt is 2.2s.

Really? Elegiggle… Wait, you want to tell me Warlocks are not tanky in PvP? Those warlocks with what amounts to plate armor and 20% more HP from a get-go over almost everyone else?

Raid is not environment where toolkit are tested? Really now? You kidding?

In Arenas Destruction is “viable” (read bordeline OP) exactly because it can survive long enough to eventually pop someone with a meaty nuke, despite all the bajillion interrupts, shutdowns and what not.

People with a lick of sense will try to focus Destro, because they know that if left unchecked he’d totally pop someone in 2 GCDs eventually, but still despite that Destruction is good - exactly because it actually can survive that focus too.

The only spec that has real hard time in PvP is Demo. Affliction is definitely not as bad as you make it out to be - it’s not “FOTM” as Destruction is, but it’s still usually a good spec in PvP as a whole.

1 Like

Then open a ladder and look how many Affliction warlocks played arenas.

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&realm=&rating=0&ladder=3v3&faction=&class_filter=9

0.7% of all players.
Demo 3.2% of all players.
Don’t tell me that these specs are not popular because they don’t have an issues in PvP.

I really hate the obnoxious quote chains, so just in case you do not know being a new Warlock player and all - you have Flashpoint on all of raid Azerite. Average Nyalotha encounter you can expect a good 40-50% uptime on that one.

That alone more than doubles your base haste and in-between that, trinkets, procs, backdraft and what not - it is really really rare to actually sit there and hard cast Chaos Bolt at base value.

All in all, once you get a bit further in Nyalotha and become confident with Warlock you will quickly find out that much of the mechanics (especially nowadays) can be safely skirted - you don’t have to interrupt your casts at just about every swirly or puddle on the ground. Often this thing does something like 200k damage, which is really nothing worry about as a warlock and often you can afford to take a tick extra to complete cast.

And then EVEN if you have to cancel - frankly for Destruction, you have like a window of 20 seconds every 2 mins where movement really can be annoying - rest of the time with unbuffed wet noodle Chaos Bolts - who gives a damn you cancel that CB that barely does anything.

I mean… Ladder be ladder. You show the top of the top 1200 entries for warlocks there - of course everyone and their dog plays bloody Destruction at that level, because it’s borderline busted in PvP.

It does not mean that Affliction is terrible there, it just means that it’s not on the level of Destruction, which is legit powerful.

I mean… common sense 101.

1 Like

Ladder shows hos useless demo and affli are in high presure encounter. Destro is viable only because of OP damage, take it away and all warlocks will gone from the ladder.
If you wanna look how terrible affli are, try it yourself and see how many classes could just ignore your existence, and how many of them could easily disspel or ignore DoTs with their toolkit. Right now, DH, rogues, paladins, DK, monks, hunters, priests could remove all your dots with pressing of one button

Wtf are u talking about? Demo and affli are trash in Pvp. Tell me did even one person play another wl specc in world championship other than destro? One hint No! And affli is squishy af in arena and with one kick countered cause of one school of magic… And demo is trash cause he has no demon armor and almost every spell is a cast…

So you are saying that affli and demo are thrash because they didnt get represented in the world champion ship? LoL

They’re not represented in the championship neither anywhere below it.

Maybe you should look at the details that there are like only 25 affli players higher ranked than 2400cr and about 50 players higher ranked than 2400 cr on EU and US servers combined so pls tell me that affli and demo aren’t garbage compared to destro… (Edit : I looked it up there is actually no affli wl on US or EU servers that’s is above 2.4 (says lootdistrict))